EVE General Discussion

Yes, but don't forget the part about travelling to the system and back. Also considering you can't use jfs to cyno your ships in.

Fleet of bs would be more vulnerable on gates than in sites.

Apparently it isn't insane it it's workable without drawing significant attention. These fits are only common because no one takes action against them. And rightly, if the fleet comp makes that unfeasible, that's because the goal of that fleet comp is resilience. That same fleet comp would make ganks or aggression prohibitive in both incursion and non-incursion highsec systems, fundamentally making them very sane when you know your fleets capability.

The fit objection is subjective, you fit the tools best for the job and the mods similarly. You wouldn't and shouldn't go for a full PvP fit unless trying to PvP. This is a non-issue. That said the fits are apparently PvP resilient enough to act as a deterrent in conjunction with concord.

There need be no "PvP effect" because there is no immunity granted by choosing to operate in a PvP resilient fleet comp that isn't earned in much the same way tanking most other HS ships is. And the force that is concord response the same way similarly. There is no difference. There is no PvP threat because players and their fleet comps have effectively removed it (through raising the barrier for successful interference beyond what most would bother with) as should be the case. All other highsec factors are the same.

Also, again, the effects to the locals are irrelevant, that's entirely on CCP, not the players.
Perhaps if the obsolescence of PUGs and incursion communities is a part of the goal that makes sense. Though really I don't see bling fittings as an issue. As stated before, fits only get to the level that other players allow. If the player base chooses for those fits to be acceptable by letting them be then there is no room to complain when they are used.

Moving to lowsec would reduce their use, but not as a matter if correction, just a new risk:reward evaluation, making it neither more right or wrong.

I also doubt the exodus for lowsec you imagine. If lowsec gets the action you can pretty well bet that action is cutting into profits and eliminating much of the incentive to run them at all. But again the validity of the strategy depends on the goal.

Not really.

Incursion fits are min/maxed vs. Mr. Sansha and his cannon fodder. That just happens to include enough tank - coupled with logi - to make ganking very expensive.

So incursion runners basicly ignore gankers, which is inappropriate. Hence my suggestion to rebalance towards ganking by nerfing CONCORD.

1) Then go gank them if their fit is so god damn horrible in your eyes. There is literally nothing preventing you from doing this but the ammount of effort you are willing to put into it.

2) Again, go generate that risk or STFU. The ship are not immune to other player's weapon so go have your fun and gank them. They are not invulnerable. They might be harder than a barge to kill but then again, they are battleship fitted with an omni tank so bring the required guns if you want to prevail. That part is on you.

2-A) Again, the incursion fleet is also affected by this system perturbation.

Vessel integrity compromised. Shield and armor resistances reduced.
At full influence, a Vanguard system suffers a 10% penalty to resists. In Assaults the penalty is 25% and in Headquarter systems the penalty is as much as 50% penalty to your resists. Due to the way resists work, it practically means that a ship with resist of 73% drops to 70% in Vanguard, 66% in Assaults and as low as 59% in Headquarter sites.

Capsule interference detected. Turret, launcher, drone and smartbomb damage reduced.
At full influence, you do 10% less damage in Vanguards, 25% less damage in Assaults and as much as 50% less damage in Headquarter sites.

So 50% penalty to weapon and to resist in HQ sites. Where is the margin problem?

2-B) Yeah, as I have already said, you can just get off the forum and go generate that risk. It's not like incursion systems are ahrd to find...

2-C) The fit are only ridiculous and irresponsible in your own mind. Most incursion runner using them would call them investement in more ISK making. The key to having a bling fit is to get accepted into a fleet faster than the guy who isn't. The actual difference for most module is rather small in effective site clearing speed but you still get 0 isk per hours if you are in the lobby X'ing up and not getting picked. Bling fit is a good way of passing ahead of others who don't which mean you get your ISK that much faster.

My incursion vindi used to run with 2 pith-A invuln because it means I could slap a second web to me more usefull to a fleet than the guy running T2 tank mods which needed a 3rd tank mid slot. I was getting into fleet faster than those T2 fits. Most runners will go bling for the same reason.

Concord not responding in incursion system means the system is now effectively low sec. The result of this would more than likely be that the incursion would be run in the same way as they currently run in low sec. That mean very rarely and with no bling. It mean the content become borderline useless and should probably be repalced by something players are actually interested to run.

Ignoring unwilling gankers is entirely appropriate. It's always been on the attacker to manifest the threat of their presence, otherwise no area of space has risk. If the fleet comp allows them to operate without interference and run the content then it's clearly a good break point. No one would expect them to fit more tank if no risk manifested at current level and they aren't the ones who can change that.

The core idea was group PvE content. It ended up being group PvE content. Go figure...

They are a thing, per the op, as well as a cash hose. The cash hose isn't aimed at the transiters though and without business in the constellation, which most people not there to milk it lose the moment the incursion hits, the optimal course becomes just going around it and keeping it a non-thing.

In fact, the purposeful avoidance of hubs (and IIRC starter systems) was to keep it from becoming too much of a thing.

The real purpose of interfering with the locals was aimed at getting them involved in running it instead of just ignoring it anyways. It's not about disruption, but inclusion.

CONCORD's. Those slackers do nothing against the incursion itself, but show up in seconds if a capsuleer shoots. How does that make sense to you?

CONCORD's. Those slackers do nothing against the incursion itself, but show up in seconds if a capsuleer shoots. How does that make sense to you?[/quote]

It's not their job. That's why they pay us to do it.

The incursion system default message state that local navies are protecting planets from invasion and that's all. They never mention what they will do beside asking us to remove the sites.



The lore technically IS followed anyway.

Attention all capsuleers: Sansha’s Nation forces have staged an incursion of the [] constellation. Local empire navies are standing by to protect against planetary abductions. Reinforcements are required to actively remove the threat.

CONCORD has created this channel to aid in the organization of capsuleer fleets willing to fight the Sansha. All pilots who offer assistance will be rewarded.

Authorized by Operation Ishaeka Commander Vieve Creston, DED Special Operations. CONCORD cannot guarantee the operational security of this channel. Attendants are advised to use caution when sharing intelligence.

I mean, where does it says CONCORD will do anything beside creating this channel and rewarding people for helping removing the menace? They also cannot garantee the usage of the created channel is safe.

I really dont understand your resistance, especially as this applies to HS, in which, unlike other sectors, CONCORD intervention still steps in.

Incursion systems already apply mitigators and different rules that penalize everyone else there.
In HS, extending PvP opportunity into this is not a stretch.
Its a very real and serious consideration, especially keeping in mind the potential profits of the Incursion, and a unique opportunity to introduce more PvP to HS under this specific ruleset and circumstance.

If, as you claim, and which I already addressed above, any HS fleet can repulse PvP aggressors, then whats the problem?

Oh!
Expensive bling killmails and enormous loss!

As ridiculous as L4 mission runners are, HS incursion runners take the ultimate cake for almost every fit slot filled with the finest and most expensive modules to exist, in ENTIRE FLEETS. For HS incursion runners, its a matter of pride. And why not, cos nobody can aggress them without CONCORD showing up to augment their existing fleet in reaction.

Its hubris and complacency at its finest, and though it nominally follows HS security principles, as I said, remember thwt it carries the caveat that Incursion systems operate under different effects.

It sickens me, and is against EVE ethos, not to mention pragmatic isk revenue in HS, that ENTIRE FLEETS of bling to the gills super fits can run HS Incursions with impunity and NO risk.

The scripted NPC encounter forces no risk.
The player interventions offer no risk, due to:
i) Fleet support (which is well and fine)
ii) CONCORD, which is where the issue lies.

I cant believe you guys are flying multibillion fits, under CONCORD protection, earning HS top isk, and have the gall to argue against PvP involvment, in EVE.

Blows my mind at the arrogance and hubris of that.

I mean really?
Im all for self-interest, on GD especially, but at some point you gotta draw the line and realize it aint right.