Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I no longer have a strategy, honestly.

However, POS and Stations are specifically designated as safe. That is their purpose, their very reason for existence.

Just as AFK cloaking was declared balanced by dev fiat, so is being safe in a station.

More importantly, without a place to be safe, store assets and build something, there is nothing here worth paying money for. It becomes a very pretty browser game where we just shoot at eachother mindlessly. We are almost there anyway, thanks to the rabid PvP only crowd that shouts down and craps on anything that isn't mindlessly shooting at eachother.


There is no effective afk play in a station. The only thing you can really do is set industry jobs and play the market. You can't do either afk without illegally modifying the client.

You keep trying to draw equivalence between the gameplay of structures and stations and that of a trivial ships module. It does not work.

Again with the false equivalence.

However... The Cloaked camper may be bluffing, holding only a toy gun under his jacket. Or he might be a real threat. There is no way to know and must be treated as a real threat.

It is simple to determine if the names in local are in a station or POS. Go look. More particularly a hunter isn't bound to one vulnerable spot. The disposition of enemy forces in enemy territory is unimportant to a solo hunter so long as they are not on grid.

Also relevant, if in a station or POS they are not engaged in PvE and are not subject to afk cloaking uncounterable disruption.

ISK making in a station isn't the same situation as earning bounties or mining.

Nothing new enters the game, trading simply transfers ISK from one player to another, which does nothing to the overall health of the game. ISK only enters or leaves the game through interaction with NPCs. Null sec trades suffer the same risks in any case. The market may be manipulated in station, but the assets still need to either come or go.

Attempting to draw equivalence between a trivial module and a structure is false by any reasonable standard. Every metric of cost from raw isk, time, effort, risk, or skill investment in being able to put up a structure is of an entirely different magnitude. It's practically obscene that you can even seriously formulate the concept that a module provide the same level of security as a station or POS, much less arguably have that comparison favor the module.

hmm I find it interesting that a single pilot, that has 0 kills, 12 recorded losses, all in the same corp since 2012, has such a .. "correct" opinion and knowledge of game mechanics. Especially that of cloaking.
So far in reading back through the thread, the only contributions made by a certain person persist of
1. Disagreeing with everything.
2. No real points given.
3. Wants to nerf cloaking without any real experience with it.

I find it hard to understand how somone who has been playing the game since 2008 has such a little understanding of game mechanics? I have read back through some topics on other subjects and I have to say I am flabbergasted.
I do not understand how somone can be so opinionated without basic understanding of the subject matter at hand.

Maybe you should really open your mind, and look as what is being said, Listen to put it another way.
We all have similar goals.
We all are against AKF game play.
we just disagree on how to go about remedying the issue.
Dont get me wrong everyone is entitled to their opinion.
But when you open up and make baseless accusations and suggestions on subjects that you have not really researched. Then all you are doing is wasting the time of those of us who are trying to effect real change.

@Mike Voidstar

I think that was a very good post and Now it is clear where you stand and what you want to accomplish.
My mentioning your killboard has more to with some very basics of EVE that started long ago. CCP makes active effort to assist third party developers. These tools will be available to all who wish to use them.
Why I posted what I did was due to the fact that we all three are on the same side of things.

" I do want cloaks changed in such a way that it becomes necessary to remain awake, aware and active to remain safe under a cloak."

I still believe you have some lack of experience with cloaking. Your losses tell me that. Nikk and I both use cloaks for PVP and PVE. also we both do industry.

In that as you choose to not pvp there is a large critical element to the functionality of cloaks and Intelligence that you do not have a basic understanding of. There are three types of intel.
Most in game intel is gathered from scanning and local, then third party intel.
Third party intel is gathered from Crest, Even if you do not make an API there is a lot of information about your toon that is "public" and is available on CCP servers.
D scan only gives you so much. There are ships that do not cloak that do not show on d scan.
Then Prob scanning. there is only one thing you cannot find with the right set of skills and probes. Cloaked ships.
Local is used to tell friend from foe in system.
Hi sec this is good if you are wardec'd or a known ganker, miner bumper is in system. It has no real relevance on cloaking due to the laws of Concord.
Low sec - the same applies just not to the same degree.
Null sec. local is overpowered. It is easy free intel. knowing that somone is in your system disrupts pve, Cloak or no.
The real issue comes into play when cloaks are used. and that pilot leave for the day. or many days. I know several years ago there were people who sole income of isk was going to a system and logging in immediately after downtime cloaking up and then doing something else. and not even checking that cloaked toon.

I take two issues with the current status quo'
Every mechanic in EVE should encourage active game play.
Everything in EVE should be scannable.

as to balance. you have to have a give and take. you cannot just say. I do not like that type of play it should be removed.
EVE is primarily a Player vrs. player game. Very dark, very advanced, and very very pvp focused. It is the only game where you can go into a noob training place and kill noobs. Grated there are consequences but you can do it.
so we agree no where should be safe.

I will write more when I have time. but please keep to the honest posting. it makes you logic easier to follow.

"You only need to give and take regarding balance if you are changing the balance of something, not correcting it."

Both one and the same mate, To this end balance means if you take something what are you going to give in return to give both sides and equal chance at success. This is the point where you should just say. I do not think Cloaking should be a part of the game. This is where you logic points. Cloaking is an intended mechanic. in its day it was the only method a small entity could dictate or threaten a large entity. It never scaled well. Those day are now gone.

"In this case, cloaks are not balanced as is, except by Dev decree that it be so. For the principals that EVE is supposed to be built on, cloaks are not balanced. Nikk, and a few others, like to draw a comparison to stations and POS to justify cloaks current power, but that can only be true if you accept that the function of a module is equivalent to core game system of local, or to the level of play represented by POS and Outposts."

Dev decree, was made long ago, It is a very real possibility to get them to revisit this. however you must have a sound argument with sound basis in fact, not opinion. In terms of intel from local, the information's Value and use's have a much different effect in Null than in Hi or WH space. You cannot light a cyno in Hi sec, or WH space. in consideration cloaking mechanics you need to consider the WH people too. The Threat of a cloaked pilot lighting a cyno is very real in low, Null and of No consequence in Hisec, or WH space. However in low sec Titians cannot Doomsday, and Supers cannot use Fighter bombers. No one is going to AFK cloak camp in hi sec on purpose. It serves no point. Nikk refers to the Intel portion of the safety. If cloaked, if in POS, if In station. you can be AFK without Reproach. Soon stations will be destructible, POS already is. The fact of local makes for a safe intel that is too easy.

"I refute that equivalence. Local does not change from one area of space to another, except wormholes. What does change is the level of effort spent keeping it clear, and thus useful. In high sec this could get expensive, though there are plenty of suicide gankers and those same tactics would be effective if someone wanted to control an area of highsec. In low and null people do put in the effort to clear local, and thus make it useful as an evasive tool to run non-combat ships in PvE."

Dude, you are entitled to your opinion. however as stated above that does not mean you have your facts right. No one really bothers with keeping hi sec systems clear with afk cloaking. No point. is far better and more effective to either wardec or pay for a merc to war dec the people you want from local.

"Local is only 'too powerful' if you consider it your right to actually catch those soft-target evasive ships. Their nature means you already disrupted their activity when you landed in system. They ran, you won."

I refer back to my second statement of response. Put the shoe on the other foot please

"I have used cloaks in PvE too. I've even used that silly little solar glider thing they gave as a free gift that sleepers won't agro on. I like to change up what and where I do things from time to time. I understand how local is used and why it's frustrating for solo hunters."

Have you used cloaks to PVP?

"What I disagree with is that the solo hunters should have a reasonable expectation of regularly forcing direct combat on non-combat ships. Finding them was the only challenge they ever represented, and the nature of tackle makes them risking even a few seconds more of what they are doing with a hostile in system an assured death sentence. Arriving in system was the only thing you needed to do to stop what they were doing because of tackle."

Nikk and I have discussed at length, in current mechanics Most all vessels that use a cloak have an equal to less chance of success to tackle and kill PVE ships. It is the threat that counts. The point of this thread has nothing to do with the value of cloaking. it has to do with the threat of power projection represented by a cloaked pilot who may or may not be AFK and therefore has an advantage by using Local to disrupt PVE activities by their very presence. This in a null sec or low sec setting does not have a counter. True if local goes the way of WH then you have a better than average chance of being surprised and ganked. However if you have some kind of way to gather Intel actively, you can avoid it. for that trade then the cloaked vessel should have a reasonable chance of being found and hunted themselves.

"The real solution to this problem lies in 2 parts. First, change PVE combat so that all modules affect them the same as players are affected. Bring the same range of effective tactics to PvE that work in PvP, and give each role a purpose within the environment (reduced to save space) , it's not worth fighting over in the short term."

I have to admit, I have really no idea what you are trying to covey or achieve. looks too much like some arguments I heard when I beta tested WOW on the forums about the game being too hard. I really do not see CCP every taking EVE in that direction. EVE is about choices. and the complication of modules, effects and ships is a large part of that. Maybe I am missing your point but is sounds like a total rewrite of how EvE pvp works.

"Fix that--- the uselessness of PvP ships in PvE content, and the lack of something worthwhile to fight for, and you will find more pilots willing to engage you in what they are flying over what they are flying for. Then you won't need to use AFK cloaking or be a master prober to find fights with something besides a defense blob."

Again not sure what you are saying. sorry. you should look at the game from every perspective and not just yours. You are playing a game that is 99% PVP based. all PVE is intended to support PVP in one way or another.

Nikk he said I show a lack of experience in PVE ROFL!!!!!!!!!

ok vanilla vrs cov ops. one really slows you speed when cloaked and has a major drawback to targeting speed. the second you can warp cloaked and when fit on a T3 in the right combination is downright nasty fast cloaked.

now, we are faced with two choices on PVE, it is a delicate balance based on desired isk per hour vers Risk.
I used to bait with a hulk fitted with both a neut and a warp disruptor, that was back in the can flippin days.
was great fun.
Now I have a Mack fit that it takes more than a small gang to take down and it only sacrifices a minimal amount of isk per hour. How to keep it safe? use local, well not in the system I am mining, I have an alt one jump out.

as the the rest of your post. EVE is hard, EVE is a PVP based game.
do I need to look that up for you. Player vrs Player is the basis of the game.
Putting PVE and PVP on equal footing is possible depending on the odd, as I stated it is risk vrs isk.
if you want max isk you need to look into other ways to keep yourself safe.

I am still having a hard time equating exactly what change you are suggesting to prevent or reduce or balance AFK Cloaking
I mean are you wanting free isk if you avoid a conflict? or is it more isk per hour earned if hostile is present? or is it just the threat of a hostile?
in any case the logic that I see appears to lead a system the gives more isk for less work based on a mechanic that cannot be judged as present or not. this is gameable, and would be widely exploited.

Nikk feel to chime in here at anytime as I know we have had many discussion on the balance between PVE and PVP ships. can you clarify his point?

May be I told that sometime here and there.
if we scrutenize the real space. Any vessel is invisible and naturally cloaked. Because A sun flare jam many more than a BS never could dream. Altogether nova burst, black hole raies, do the same
From my point of view CCP must invert the paradygm ingame from a space like a lake so calm it hold any swim inside can be listen from many kilometers far away, for a space shaking and quaking like a raging ocean. where a swimmer can drown without evidence and notify.
A space completely jammed from the start where to find a BS is like find a needle in a bulk of straw.

After that... No more problem of cloaking.

In this case the notion of cloak begin to be: make noise better and stronger like a star a moon or a whirlwind.

This was covered earlier in the thread.

The reason people AFK cloak is to catch local pilots that rely on evasion to reduce losses.

I am discussing the very root of the problem. If fewer pilots relied on evasion, you would have fewer butt hurt solo PvP hunters frustrated that they can't catch PvE boats.

I don't draw equivalence between local and cloaks. That give and take you discuss in my opinion comes from giving pilots a reason to change their habits instead of removing local so that they don't get warning and become clueless helpless targets instead of just helpless targets.

There are many levels to the problem. To fix the AFK part of cloaking I suggest a covert probe system that can only be fit on the cov-ops, recon and black ops hulls, in addition to a cov-ops sensor array that allows the ship to see cloaked ships on grid. That means that a given cloak hunter is using 2 module slots on the same hull, putting the cloaked ship at a mild advantage should it get caught. A cloaked pilot who is active is going to be able to see the probes and move or drop cloak to minimize the target delay and prepare to fight. A cloaked ship that keeps moving is not going to have to worry much about it in the first place. The cloaked ship still has to be decloaked to be targeted, so there is ample opportunity to achieve objectives in active cloaked play, and the cycle time of the probes can be adjusted to insure a proper balance is maintained.

To then address the concerns of PvP pilots looking to hunt PvE ships I suggest the fixing and development of PvE content so that PvE ships are not pigeonholed into mediocre buffered endurance tanks and PvE goals and rewards encourage standing ground rather than abandoning the field before a conflict can take place.

"Fixing" the problem isn't the issue, the issue is game balance, apparently a concept quite outside your ability to grasp.