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Buff resist rigs
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Arla Sarain
#21 - 2015-08-20 16:38:58 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:



So 3 off CDFP II's at 25% reduction each only give a total reduction in shield recharge time by almost 58%

Whereas 3 off CDFE II rigs which buff shield hitpoints by 20% each give a total HP gain of 74%. See what's wrong here?



58% reduction in time is more than 74% increase in recharge amount.

1/0.42 = 2.38 or 138%.

Three purgers are stronger than 3 extenders for recharge.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#22 - 2015-08-20 16:43:57 UTC
Anything that buffs RR is not currently a good idea. Could you imagine what super fights would be like if you could actually tank an erebus? We'd go from 2 explosions / 1 hour to 1 explosion / 2 hours.
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#23 - 2015-08-20 18:14:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Haatakan Reppola
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
If you know what you are fighting, resist rigs offer a lot more that the meager increase from buffer alone. If you are active tanking, resists rigs are far more valuable as well since they increase the return per rep cycle.

Not really even then. Let me give you an example--I'll use a very rudimentary tank setup, one where the resist rig has a lot of room to provide a bonus, and little stacking penalty to stand in its way:

All skills level 5, no fleet boosts, no implants or boosters
Ship: Harbinger - one of these shield fit is likely to rely on rigs to supplement the tank
Modules: T2 shield extender, T2 EM hardener, T2 AIF, T2 Damage Control
Rigs: 2x T1 defense field extender
Resist hole: thermal


Lets use lasers against it. (damage profile 60% EM and 40% thermal)


Resist Layout: 70.9 // 51.0 // 63.3 // 69.4
Effective Hit Points vs. Lasers: 52,169
Base max shield EHP regen: 59

If we add a T1 thermal shield rig to the last rig slot:
Resist Layout: 70.9 // 63.8 // 63.3 // 69.4
Effective Hit Points vs. Lasers: 56,163 +7.6%
Base max shield EHP regen: 69

If we add a T1 shield extender rig instead:
Resist Layout: 70.9 // 51.0 // 63.3 // 69.4
Effective Hit Points vs. Lasers: 55,916 +7.2%
Base max shield EHP regen: 68

In this extreme scenario, the resist rig is a little bit better than the hit point rig.


So what your saying is that a resist rig only effective on 40% of the dmg is better than an extender rig that work on 100% of the dmg. Dont sound like they need much boosting if you ask me
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#24 - 2015-08-20 18:33:36 UTC
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
If you know what you are fighting, resist rigs offer a lot more that the meager increase from buffer alone. If you are active tanking, resists rigs are far more valuable as well since they increase the return per rep cycle.

Not really even then. Let me give you an example--I'll use a very rudimentary tank setup, one where the resist rig has a lot of room to provide a bonus, and little stacking penalty to stand in its way:

All skills level 5, no fleet boosts, no implants or boosters
Ship: Harbinger - one of these shield fit is likely to rely on rigs to supplement the tank
Modules: T2 shield extender, T2 EM hardener, T2 AIF, T2 Damage Control
Rigs: 2x T1 defense field extender
Resist hole: thermal


Lets use lasers against it. (damage profile 60% EM and 40% thermal)


Resist Layout: 70.9 // 51.0 // 63.3 // 69.4
Effective Hit Points vs. Lasers: 52,169
Base max shield EHP regen: 59

If we add a T1 thermal shield rig to the last rig slot:
Resist Layout: 70.9 // 63.8 // 63.3 // 69.4
Effective Hit Points vs. Lasers: 56,163 +7.6%
Base max shield EHP regen: 69

If we add a T1 shield extender rig instead:
Resist Layout: 70.9 // 51.0 // 63.3 // 69.4
Effective Hit Points vs. Lasers: 55,916 +7.2%
Base max shield EHP regen: 68

In this extreme scenario, the resist rig is a little bit better than the hit point rig.


So what your saying is that a resist rig only effective on 40% of the dmg is better than an extender rig that work on 100% of the dmg. Dont sound like they need much boosting if you ask me


He also didn't take reps into account at all...
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2015-08-21 05:19:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
It only buffs one resist. I gave a case that while extreme is actually reasonable. Lasers are a common weapon you encounter and one of the more major ways your thermal resist hole gets hit. You can't actually expect your incoming damage to be mostly or only one specific type unless you're either going into PVE or your PVP opponents are just bad. Sure, a resist rig for one type usually gives more for that type than a rig spread across all types. But what about when that's not the damage you're taking? It should be a lot stronger. Why do you think t1 hardeners grant 50% resist?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#26 - 2015-08-21 05:21:14 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I could be wrong, but I don't believe that compensation skills buff the resist amounts of resist rigs.

The only buff I could see is changing this so that compensation skills to work with resist rigs.


That would also give a reason to train Shield Resist compensation skills.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2015-08-21 06:14:34 UTC
afkalt wrote:
No, because you're forgetting how hard resists make logi repping multiply. Ever 0.1% makes the absolute values of HP repped by logi that much harder to re-remove.

In other words, buffer doesn't scale with logi, resists do.

This was why the hull bonuses dropped from 5% to 4%/level too.

Let us not forget that OP is the one who also suggests to cut repping power of RR in two to four, apparently. Hence comparisons with buffer rigs first, I suppose.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2015-08-21 06:44:31 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
afkalt wrote:
No, because you're forgetting how hard resists make logi repping multiply. Ever 0.1% makes the absolute values of HP repped by logi that much harder to re-remove.

In other words, buffer doesn't scale with logi, resists do.

This was why the hull bonuses dropped from 5% to 4%/level too.

Let us not forget that OP is the one who also suggests to cut repping power of RR in two to four, apparently. Hence comparisons with buffer rigs first, I suppose.


But it really doesn't matter. Either reps hold, or they do not. Buffer has NOTHING to offer there, but more time until you die. Resists scale logi, no matter the logi, buffer does not so they are not comparable.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2015-08-21 06:44:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiddle Jr
I always wondering about native EM shield whole which is inherent to most of the t1 hulls. So probably the EM shield resist rig is one of the most popular in fittings. Same goes to Explsv rig on armor fits. Talking about T1 hulls.

And i was catching myself on the one big wish to shake this resists layout which we currently have. And probably get rid of resists rigssince we have nice mods to replace them. Having buff % of rigs would probably move those mods into the shadow.

And would this 40% buff be acceptable trade off for increased mass/signature?

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2015-08-21 07:06:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiddle Jr
afkalt wrote:
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
afkalt wrote:
No, because you're forgetting how hard resists make logi repping multiply. Ever 0.1% makes the absolute values of HP repped by logi that much harder to re-remove.

In other words, buffer doesn't scale with logi, resists do.

This was why the hull bonuses dropped from 5% to 4%/level too.

Let us not forget that OP is the one who also suggests to cut repping power of RR in two to four, apparently. Hence comparisons with buffer rigs first, I suppose.


But it really doesn't matter. Either reps hold, or they do not. Buffer has NOTHING to offer there, but more time until you die. Resists scale logi, no matter the logi, buffer does not so they are not comparable.


I do imagine logi would start feeding you with resisits transfer vs hit points, it's gonna be fun

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2015-08-21 07:14:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
afkalt wrote:
But it really doesn't matter. Either reps hold, or they do not. Buffer has NOTHING to offer there, but more time until you die. Resists scale logi, no matter the logi, buffer does not so they are not comparable.

Except it does matter because your EHP determines how much time logi has to get reps on you. And since logi are so strong at current, pretty much once you have reps on you you're safe. So in a lot of cases, maybe most cases in PVP, buffer matters actually more than resists especially since a good buffer tank for the sake of buffer almost always has good resists already.

Ever run incursions? Most incursion FCs will tell you that you need resists at least 70% and buffer at least 100-150k EHP (if you're in a battleship). You can reach 70% resists across the board in a shield tanked T1 Megathron, but good luck actually squeezing out 150k EHP. There's a reason the minimum resist bar is so much lower than the minimum EHP bar, and it's due to the strength of logi making it so that response time is more important than actual rep strength.
disclaimer: you wouldn't use a Megathron in incursion shield fleets. I'm using it as an example to demonstrate how easy it is to reach 70% resists.



Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Let us not forget that OP is the one who also suggests to cut repping power of RR in two to four, apparently. Hence comparisons with buffer rigs first, I suppose.

Quoted for posterity.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2015-08-21 07:48:50 UTC
I know, I already said that the only point in buffer is to not get alphad. However as fights scale this pretty quickly becomes pointless as it is DPS race to drop the enemy DPS to the point you can hold reps, there's just not enough buffer available on subcaps to make it viable.

The point is that buffing resists serves only to double down on how powerful logi is, it would make them even more oppressive in small scale battles.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2015-08-21 08:30:36 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:



So 3 off CDFP II's at 25% reduction each only give a total reduction in shield recharge time by almost 58%

Whereas 3 off CDFE II rigs which buff shield hitpoints by 20% each give a total HP gain of 74%. See what's wrong here?



58% reduction in time is more than 74% increase in recharge amount.

1/0.42 = 2.38 or 138%.

Three purgers are stronger than 3 extenders for recharge.




Sigh........


That wasn't my point. I was showing how other rigs have diminishing returns on what they are trying to achieve whereas buffer rigs are the only thing that has enhancing returns, that is each rig you fit is more powerful than the last in contrary to other rigs and modules which do the opposite. Each subsequent rig or module you fit should have a diminishing return.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2015-08-21 08:37:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
afkalt wrote:
I know, I already said that the only point in buffer is to not get alphad. However as fights scale this pretty quickly becomes pointless as it is DPS race to drop the enemy DPS to the point you can hold reps, there's just not enough buffer available on subcaps to make it viable.

The point is that buffing resists serves only to double down on how powerful logi is, it would make them even more oppressive in small scale battles.

No, you're wrong. The need for buffer for effective logi scales just as much with fleet size as does the need for resists for effective logi. The more ships there are to focus fire, the less time logi has to react.

Buffer is an important part of logi no matter how you look at it.


Spugg Galdon wrote:

That wasn't my point. I was showing how other rigs have diminishing returns on what they are trying to achieve whereas buffer rigs are the only thing that has enhancing returns, that is each rig you fit is more powerful than the last in contrary to other rigs and modules which do the opposite. Each subsequent rig or module you fit should have a diminishing return.


Correct.
However capacitor and shield recharge bonuses also have no stacking penalty and do compound on each other in the same way.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Arla Sarain
#35 - 2015-08-21 09:32:07 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:



So 3 off CDFP II's at 25% reduction each only give a total reduction in shield recharge time by almost 58%

Whereas 3 off CDFE II rigs which buff shield hitpoints by 20% each give a total HP gain of 74%. See what's wrong here?



58% reduction in time is more than 74% increase in recharge amount.

1/0.42 = 2.38 or 138%.

Three purgers are stronger than 3 extenders for recharge.




Sigh........


That wasn't my point. I was showing how other rigs have diminishing returns on what they are trying to achieve whereas buffer rigs are the only thing that has enhancing returns, that is each rig you fit is more powerful than the last in contrary to other rigs and modules which do the opposite. Each subsequent rig or module you fit should have a diminishing return.


And I was pointing out that even with diminishing returns, rigs fitted for a particular purpose are still stronger than the generic choice.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#36 - 2015-08-21 10:54:05 UTC
afkalt wrote:
I know, I already said that the only point in buffer is to not get alphad. However as fights scale this pretty quickly becomes pointless as it is DPS race to drop the enemy DPS to the point you can hold reps, there's just not enough buffer available on subcaps to make it viable.

The point is that buffing resists serves only to double down on how powerful logi is, it would make them even more oppressive in small scale battles.


You base everything around logi, but what about solo play where buffer gives you that extra 10-20 secs that that one resist mod wouldn't.

btw logi is OP as hell and needs a serious nerf.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#37 - 2015-08-21 13:02:54 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
afkalt wrote:
I know, I already said that the only point in buffer is to not get alphad. However as fights scale this pretty quickly becomes pointless as it is DPS race to drop the enemy DPS to the point you can hold reps, there's just not enough buffer available on subcaps to make it viable.

The point is that buffing resists serves only to double down on how powerful logi is, it would make them even more oppressive in small scale battles.


You base everything around logi, but what about solo play where buffer gives you that extra 10-20 secs that that one resist mod wouldn't.

btw logi is OP as hell and needs a serious nerf.


In solo play, the buffer rig is meant to be more powerful. If you have no logi, then yes more buffer is kind as you have to last on the HP you already have from the start. Do you think resist rigs should be a better buffer rig than the raw buffer rigs?
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2015-08-21 15:51:28 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Why do you think t1 hardeners grant 50% resist?


Well they are active and can eb neuted out. They also have a different fitting cost.

The rigs are close to the level of the passive mods which I think is fine.
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#39 - 2015-08-21 15:55:58 UTC
afkalt wrote:
No, because you're forgetting how hard resists make logi repping multiply. Ever 0.1% makes the absolute values of HP repped by logi that much harder to re-remove.

In other words, buffer doesn't scale with logi, resists do.

This was why the hull bonuses dropped from 5% to 4%/level too.


Nerf RR.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#40 - 2015-08-21 18:26:11 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

Ever run incursions? Most incursion FCs will tell you that you need resists at least 70% and buffer at least 100-150k EHP (if you're in a battleship). You can reach 70% resists across the board in a shield tanked T1 Megathron, but good luck actually squeezing out 150k EHP. There's a reason the minimum resist bar is so much lower than the minimum EHP bar, and it's due to the strength of logi making it so that response time is more important than actual rep strength.
disclaimer: you wouldn't use a Megathron in incursion shield fleets. I'm using it as an example to demonstrate how easy it is to reach 70% resists.



Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Let us not forget that OP is the one who also suggests to cut repping power of RR in two to four, apparently. Hence comparisons with buffer rigs first, I suppose.

Quoted for posterity.


You need 5 modules (DC + 2x Invu + EM field or amp + Thermal rig) to get 70% resists, not counting links or faction/deadspace. On a 4 mid slot ships that need prop mod that mean no more mid slots. Also the people telling you need 100-150k EHP have no idea what they are talking about, SHIELD EHP (or armor for armor fleets) is the only number you should be looking at.
On a Vindicator you have to use 60% of your mod slots + 33% of your rig slots to reach 70% resistance, think 1 extender rig is wanted while using T2 modules but never instead of resistance rig!

If we compare that Megathron (LSE and 2x extender rig for 99k ehp) to a Vindicator with no extenders (94k ehp) we can see how little EHP realy means. The Megathron have 61k shield ehp while the Vindicator have only 41k shield ehp. (using t2 modules/rigs)
As we can see the Megathron, while not a realistic fit, have +50% EHP for its tank while only having +5% total EHP
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