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As it it now you do not need probes to find these new structures. As you didn't need them on the old ones(POS only at moons) .
The mechanic they want to use now is good enough.
Finding only by probes is a no no, probes can be seen on D-scan alterting everyone to your presence.
In whs this is a big deal!
But if there would be a more complicated way to find the new structures without probes. Then they could be taken of the anoms list. But do you realy want to complicate things that way?

It is virtually impossible for a small Corp. to hold Sov. it should be impossible for a small Corp, to hold Sov, it just take more resources than a small Corp. can generate. Hence alliances... and yes it will kill a lot of the solo players (i.e. Griefers who aren't adding content) dang if they don't have to base out of low sec and roam out to 0.0 and be vulnerable the whole way.

The proposed mechanic is terrible for sieging because what's at risk goes from "all your ships, all your items, all your mins, all your POS and POS guns, all your ****" down to "10% of your items, minerals and ships, plus 100% of whatever ship you are sitting in and maybe your pod, plus your Citadel".


The result of this may not in fact be a hearty defence of a Citadel by an outnumbered attacker. Let's say Sudden Buggery, due to the stellar pulchritude of its handsome and gregarious CEO who has called all of wormhole space a bunch of child-fondling mendicants, gets hardcore sieged in their Lowsec Citadel. Choice is to fight, bringing out ship after ship to die before the 120 T3's and 40 Guardians arrayed against the corp. Or you just sit in the Citadel, swap into a T1 frigate, and tell your attackers they should stop molesting babies, let it all get blown up around you, maybe get podded, wake up in hisec and 5 days later pay a small Space Hobbit Tax.


I mean, why would you even bother fighting? Also, this is way better way of moving out of an area. Lets say you have 100 members in an XL Citadel. Strip your ships of all modules, especially fancy pimp, load them into a blockade runner. Get your Citadel blown up, suddenly EVERYTHING you own is collated into one handy safe lowsec or hisec location in plastic wrap thanks to magic Space Hobbits. Far better than having to move 100 ships x 100 people X jumps, at 15-ish minutes per trip. That's 2,500 man-hours of boring ass logistics. If you game it right, 10% tax on 100 ships (average hull price 100M = 1B) can be recovered in no time at all at the incursion Rate Per Hour. For that corp, 2,500 man hours = 250 billion ISk in opportunity cost of ratting vs logistics.


The sensible option thanks to Space Hobbits is to actually let your Citadel get blown up. In almost all cases. just plan ahead a bit, clean up the modules and pimp, empty the hangars a bit, job done.

Attention Warfare

At its most basic, this attention mechanic / entosis gameplay is killing EVE and will really kill wormholes. We have discussed it, and we can easily do an M Citadel in our wormhole and probably will. Having to be around for 2 hours a night around downtime when we already play? No big deal. Entosis ships are welcome to come troll us, we don't care.


But what i do care about is a system in the game which is washing away the problems of DPS vs EHP gameplay and replacing it with laser-tag bullshit attention gameplay. People will not play a game that demands they put attention into it that they cannot give. If the kabs and smallholders leave wormholes there is no one left.


Let me tell you, it's getting very hard to find people in wormholes. It's ******* deserted in lowsec. Like, eerily deserted, in almost all of lowsec. There's highsec systems where there would always be 8-15 miners chugging away. Now empty.



People are voting with their credit cards, time, efforts and feet and they are thoroughly disliking the new game. Perhaps the issue isn't that DPS vs EHP is good and Entosis is bad, or vice versa; the issue is that you get a thrill out of flying a gigantic space **** affirmation dildo around (dread, carrier, super) feeling like king muckity.

Now? You don't give a toss about flying a goddamn pissy little cruiser with a flashlight, flipping systems in minutes or hours, with no risk. There's no feeling of doing violence to the enemy, at all, by just turning up on grid and sitting out a goddamn flashlight timer.


I mean, really. That's not engrossing gameplay. There's no thrill of owning their structure, blowing it up, using guns and lasers and missiles. It just transmutes with a magic wand into a pathetic can full of nothing and loot and whatever the crap. BORING. Neither is shining a light on someone's XL Citadel for 30 minutes and it magically blows up, pods them maybe, and forces all their stuff to some magic fairy netherspace and/or back to highsec all safe and sound.

Yeah, noobs, we magically made your stuff move somewhere! i hope you suffer in your jocks, having to pay a piddly 10% ransom! I hope you don't spend your time in Incursions, in utter safety, earing the money to afford to pay the space hobbit tax! Yeah! Ahahaha, see you in nullsec again. not.

Seriously? We are meant to give a crap about this damn game, when that is the peak violent act you can do?

Is that a game, or is it some politically correct sop to whining carebears who can't get over the fact the game is risky and want their cocks sucked by a pliant, desperate company seeing the writing on the wall and are assuming people want boring, meaningless pap to fill their nights with? Where's the adrenaline rush, where's the incentive to fight like bearcats when all your crap magically gets teleported to safety and you can go run Incursions for 5 days instead?

CCP, you really need to make capitals worth something, and desperately quickly, before your peak gameplayers quit this game of laser-tag fairy circle-jerk nothingness.

Will we finally get some of the cool new explosions with these new Citadels?

I agree fully on the small corp not being able to hold SOV.
However, it has proven to be quite viable for a (relatively) small corp to hold a Wormhole system. As we have done for years now. In those years we have had many lone players or small groups repelled by our POS while we were asleep or at work.
In other words, it would be very hard for us, if not impossible, to have the new structures manned at all times for defensive purposes.

Luckily it seems, as the proposal is now, that we can set the vulnerability times ourselves, so we only have to make sure to be around at those times. Time will tell how that will work out eventually.

Still I would like to have at least some automated defences at our future POS 2.0.

Well said (again and again and again) - too bad CCP officials dont seem to give a damn.

Or have serious comprehension problems ...

Or believe that they surely know best what motivates their playerbase ......


Just look at your statistics CCP - if your goal was to half player activity on your servers in the shortest possible time, gratz you are well on track !!
In any other cases look your fail to "reinvent" EVE straight in the eye, cause things are even going to get worse with your current plans and vision. Perhaps its time to actually start listen to feedback like the above.

Well you have to remember that most of the Devs that worked on the original POS code are gone... in order for CCP to *cough* save money. Because of this the current devs have a hard time with the code in addition to the code being somewhat problematic. Hence they write new code with much more simplified structures. This gives 2 advantages, its easy to maintain and if they sell the company it looks well documented and the current people can explain how it works. Remember this is not about improving player involvement or gameplay its about making everyday life in Eve a constant battle, that way you are sure to have to buy PLEX to sell on the market. If you look at the past changes you'll see that agents were nerfed and so were the high bounties on most of the L4 missions making it necessary to grind more and buy implants to sell on the market. Carriers can't carry s*&t, because the 3 months it took you to make your jump skills doesn't mean anything. Hard coding a 5ly jump limit where you are forced to take a carrier though a gate, but allowing Black Ops ships a 10 ly range. Droves of Eve players have been leaving to play better games with people who actually listen. Eve Online is no longer the game it once was. Either accept the change or realize that the game you used to love to play is gone and walk away.

A simple solution just occurred to me, gun automation rigs. If you are manning your towers you can get away with using all service rigs. Small corps and WH corps can automate the guns but at a cost in terms of utility (and rigs prices).

How about a compromise (in keeping with xttz's post (#14) on page 1) mix Entosis mechanics, which helps the smaller guy, with damage mechanics, allowing big ships on grid and pew pew potential ?

My current thinking is based on this.....


Take for example a Caldari Large POS:

50 million shield,
resistances (EM/Th/Kin/Exp) 0 / 50 / 25 / 0.


Instead we now have a medium XR-527.... *insert fluff*.... Citadel from Kaalakiota with:

15 million shield*
resistances (EM/Th/Kin/Exp) 60 / 85 / 75 / 60*

*Final numbers to be developed by Iteration


This gives a structure with about 81% of the shield EHP from the predecessor, but mostly in the resistances. Now change from pure Entosis reinforcement mechanic to...



Now a single Entosis cycle drops shields from 60 / 85 / 75 / 60 to much less challenging 30 / 42.5 / 37.5 / 30. A subsequent cycle takes it to 15 / 21.25 / 18.75 / 15.... and so on (diminishing returns).

By the fourth cycle the structure would have gone from 50 million shield EHP to 15.7 million, making it much more vulnerable, but crucially, still requiring some 'DPS investment' to get rid of the thing.

There are then multiple options for RF timers, you could continue to use strontium and strontium timer 'kiting' (a very valid and interesting strategy which is currently on course to get binned....). You could have multiple RF timers each time a successful 'hack' occurs. You could have a single user defined RF timer like POCO's. You could even do something different like having temporary 'boost' to 99% resistances for a predetermined length of time between hacks and so on....

(My preference would still be for the first option, but that's just my preference)

I really do think there needs to be some discussion along these lines to make this more interesting than Sov structure mechanics, while encouraging some commitment in terms of hardware from the attacker. These are very different beasts to 'dumb' TCUs/IHubs.