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Buff resist rigs
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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2015-08-20 07:44:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Even in the cases most strongly tilted in favor of resist rigs, the hit point bonus rigs still add a lot more effective hit points. Sure, resists are more valuable overall than raw hit points, but you could increase the resist rigs a lot before you'd ever see them offer more EHP than the hit point rigs. As it stands, they offer so little difference it's just not worth fitting them in place of the HP rigs. A lot of times I don't fit them even when I'm not fitting anything else, simply because the drawbacks are too strong for such a weak bonus. I'd rather have empty rig slots and a resist hole than increase my sig radius or mass by a higher percentage than I increase my effective hit points while only slightly shrinking the resist hole.


I suggest boosting them to 40% resist for the tech 1 and 45% resist for the tech 2. That way they will offer more resist than shield amplifiers and armor energized membranes, which makes sense because the amplifiers and membranes have cheap fitting costs and do not confer any drawbacks.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#2 - 2015-08-20 08:02:28 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Even in the cases most strongly tilted in favor of resist rigs, the hit point bonus rigs still add a lot more effective hit points. Sure, resists are more valuable overall than raw hit points, but you could increase the resist rigs a lot before you'd ever see them offer more EHP than the hit point rigs. As it stands, they offer so little difference it's just not worth fitting them in place of the HP rigs. A lot of times I don't fit them even when I'm not fitting anything else, simply because the drawbacks are too strong for such a weak bonus. I'd rather have empty rig slots than increase my sig radius or mass by a higher percentage than I increase my effective hit points.


I suggest boosting them to 40% resist for the tech 1 and 45% resist for the tech 2. That way they will offer more resist than shield amplifiers and armor energized membranes, which makes sense because the amplifiers and membranes have cheap fitting costs and do not confer any drawbacks.


Not a bad idea. Due to the drawbacks I don't bother to fit any resist rigs unless I don't have the calibration to fit anything else and even then I'd look for something else, resist rigs just aren't worth it. Unless I have a huge resist hole that I really really need to plug up.

+1
Arla Sarain
#3 - 2015-08-20 08:18:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
EHP isn't everything though.

Especially considering how misleading the figure is, comparing between the ingame one, which is based on the lowest resist
and EFT one, which based on the average of resists.

If you know what you are fighting, resist rigs offer a lot more that the meager increase from buffer alone. If you are active tanking, resists rigs are far more valuable as well since they increase the return per rep cycle.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2015-08-20 08:22:30 UTC
Personally I feel that resistance rigs are pretty well balanced. They are a good option for active tanks and fill a hole in resistance profiles nicely.

A very small tweak or a change in drawbacks may be beneficial but the real reason HP rigs are overpowered is because they don't suffer from stacking penalties.

Rigs in general could use some iteration or a complete redesign. However, they are one of the only systems in EvE that work well (excluding the useless rigs) at the moment. There are bigger fish to fry.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2015-08-20 08:53:10 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
If you know what you are fighting, resist rigs offer a lot more that the meager increase from buffer alone. If you are active tanking, resists rigs are far more valuable as well since they increase the return per rep cycle.

Not really even then. Let me give you an example--I'll use a very rudimentary tank setup, one where the resist rig has a lot of room to provide a bonus, and little stacking penalty to stand in its way:

All skills level 5, no fleet boosts, no implants or boosters
Ship: Harbinger - one of these shield fit is likely to rely on rigs to supplement the tank
Modules: T2 shield extender, T2 EM hardener, T2 AIF, T2 Damage Control
Rigs: 2x T1 defense field extender
Resist hole: thermal


Lets use lasers against it. (damage profile 60% EM and 40% thermal)


Resist Layout: 70.9 // 51.0 // 63.3 // 69.4
Effective Hit Points vs. Lasers: 52,169
Base max shield EHP regen: 59

If we add a T1 thermal shield rig to the last rig slot:
Resist Layout: 70.9 // 63.8 // 63.3 // 69.4
Effective Hit Points vs. Lasers: 56,163 +7.6%
Base max shield EHP regen: 69

If we add a T1 shield extender rig instead:
Resist Layout: 70.9 // 51.0 // 63.3 // 69.4
Effective Hit Points vs. Lasers: 55,916 +7.2%
Base max shield EHP regen: 68

In this extreme scenario, the resist rig is a little bit better than the hit point rig.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Arla Sarain
#6 - 2015-08-20 09:54:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
You say you want to protect yourselves from lasers, but then say you plug a hole. That's not protecting yourself from a certain weapon type, it is just what it is, plugging a hole. Which in own capacity is the reward for rigs - a uniform defense profile that prevents your buffer from being depleted at an increased rate.

Another point is that the incoming thermal damage is only 40% of the total damage.

Receive pure thermal damage on that ship with the rig.
Then do the same without.
You get 36% and 49% of the damage, which is a 49/36 = 1.36 the difference. A third extender won't give you that.

Is it lopsided? Maybe. But it's a choice. And excluding that it requires more thought to execute properly, it's not worthless, or certainly not worse than extenders/trimark pumps.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2015-08-20 09:59:30 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
No, because you're forgetting how hard resists make logi repping multiply. Ever 0.1% makes the absolute values of HP repped by logi that much harder to re-remove.

In other words, buffer doesn't scale with logi, resists do.

This was why the hull bonuses dropped from 5% to 4%/level too.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#8 - 2015-08-20 10:06:07 UTC
They can't be that bad they are used quite often.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2015-08-20 10:35:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Spugg Galdon
hhhmmmmm,

I don't know what's going on in EFT but when I add a shield extender to a Hurricane it adds more raw HP's than the LSE II is supposed to add (should +2600, actually +3250)

I'm guessing this is because the module adds the HP value to the base HP value of the ship and then it applies skills to that new value. [confirmed]

I was under the impression that skills only applied to the absolute base stats not to the "fitted ship" stats.

Learn something new everyday.

Anyway, this just compounds the issue with buffer rigs being percentage based without stacking penalties as they add even more with each rig applied.
They also apply "last". So it gets even worse as the way it all adds up is like this:

(((Base stats + modules) x skills) = A (A being an unrigged but fitted ship stats)

A is then multiplied by the buffer rigs like this:

A x rig 1 (a CDFE II - 20% buff) = A x 1.2 which we will call Ar1
Rig 2 is then applied to Ar1
Ar1 x rig 2 = Ar1 x 1.2. which we will call Ar2
The bonus the second CDFE applies is +20% of Ar1 which actually equates to +24% buffer to "A".
The 3rd rig also applies sequentially to Ar2 by buffing it by a further 20%. This actually equates to a 29% buff of the original buffer value.

This means that 3 T2 buffer rigs give you a 73% bonus from your original HP pool on your fitted ship. That is 3 off 20% bonus rigs giving 73% bonus.

Buffer rig stacking (or the lack stacking penalties) and the way rigs apply to ship stats is the imbalance when it comes to the differentiation between resistance rigs and buffer rigs.

Also, I haven't looked at how fleet or implant bonuses apply
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
#10 - 2015-08-20 11:05:45 UTC
afkalt wrote:
No, because you're forgetting how hard resists make logi repping multiply. Ever 0.1% makes the absolute values of HP repped by logi that much harder to re-remove.

In other words, buffer doesn't scale with logi, resists do.

This was why the hull bonuses dropped from 5% to 4%/level too.


This is also my understanding of the relationship between rep and resist.

Not supported.

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2015-08-20 11:38:24 UTC
I could be wrong, but I don't believe that compensation skills buff the resist amounts of resist rigs.

The only buff I could see is changing this so that compensation skills to work with resist rigs.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2015-08-20 12:03:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Spugg Galdon
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I could be wrong, but I don't believe that compensation skills buff the resist amounts of resist rigs.

The only buff I could see is changing this so that compensation skills to work with resist rigs.



Skills that increase HP values also don't increase the bonus rigs apply. This is working as intended.

Like I said above, the issue is how HP buffer rigs apply to the final fitted ship stats and then pile on top of each other sequentially with out stacking penalties.

This isn't the case with resistance rigs as they apply sequentially to the remaining resistance hole.

For example -

Shields because of the zero stating point:

3 off T2 EM resistance rigs fitted to an unfitted ship provide an increase in resistances from 0% to 63.8% even though each rig provides 35% bonus to shield resistances.

So why isn't it a final 105% resistance? Because resistance buffs are applied to the remainder of the resistance.
The first rig is applied to a 0% resist which gives the full 35% increase in resistance.
The second rig is applied to 35% resist which is then a 35% increase of 65% = 22.75% increase in resistance. But it actually doesn't. This is because resistance rigs have stacking penalties. Which means the second T2 EM rig only provides 30.5% bonus to the remainder of 65% which equals an increase of 19.8% and an end result of 54.8%.
The third rig is stacking penalized and also receives the diminishing returns of only applying to the remaining 45.2% resistance hole.

Buffer rigs don't suffer from diminishing returns. They actually get enhancing returns as the more you use the more you get!

Buffer rigs are the issue. Not resistance rigs.
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#13 - 2015-08-20 12:28:48 UTC
I think resist rigs offer enough resistance, but I think reducing the penalty in comparison to trimarks/extenders would be a good move.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2015-08-20 12:36:50 UTC
No. No. No.

A caracal with a single invuln has a 244 EHP/s tank from a SINGLE large remote shield booster.

Add 2x em and 1X therm rigs and that's suddenly 307 EHP/s.


Get the picture?

Yes, there are some ships which do better with trimarks/extenders HOWEVER they tend to be hulls already innately resist boost. No shocker there.

With logi in play, so long as you can not get alphad resists are ALWAYS superior.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#15 - 2015-08-20 13:13:10 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I could be wrong, but I don't believe that compensation skills buff the resist amounts of resist rigs.

The only buff I could see is changing this so that compensation skills to work with resist rigs.



Skills that increase HP values also don't increase the bonus rigs apply. This is working as intended.

Like I said above, the issue is how HP buffer rigs apply to the final fitted ship stats and then pile on top of each other sequentially with out stacking penalties.

This isn't the case with resistance rigs as they apply sequentially to the remaining resistance hole.

For example -

Shields because of the zero stating point:

3 off T2 EM resistance rigs fitted to an unfitted ship provide an increase in resistances from 0% to 63.8% even though each rig provides 35% bonus to shield resistances.

So why isn't it a final 105% resistance? Because resistance buffs are applied to the remainder of the resistance.
The first rig is applied to a 0% resist which gives the full 35% increase in resistance.
The second rig is applied to 35% resist which is then a 35% increase of 65% = 22.75% increase in resistance. But it actually doesn't. This is because resistance rigs have stacking penalties. Which means the second T2 EM rig only provides 30.5% bonus to the remainder of 65% which equals an increase of 19.8% and an end result of 54.8%.
The third rig is stacking penalized and also receives the diminishing returns of only applying to the remaining 45.2% resistance hole.

Buffer rigs don't suffer from diminishing returns. They actually get enhancing returns as the more you use the more you get!

Buffer rigs are the issue. Not resistance rigs.


Buffer rigs are better on buffer fit.

News at 11.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2015-08-20 13:19:59 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I could be wrong, but I don't believe that compensation skills buff the resist amounts of resist rigs.

The only buff I could see is changing this so that compensation skills to work with resist rigs.



Skills that increase HP values also don't increase the bonus rigs apply. This is working as intended.

Like I said above, the issue is how HP buffer rigs apply to the final fitted ship stats and then pile on top of each other sequentially with out stacking penalties.

This isn't the case with resistance rigs as they apply sequentially to the remaining resistance hole.

For example -

Shields because of the zero stating point:

3 off T2 EM resistance rigs fitted to an unfitted ship provide an increase in resistances from 0% to 63.8% even though each rig provides 35% bonus to shield resistances.

So why isn't it a final 105% resistance? Because resistance buffs are applied to the remainder of the resistance.
The first rig is applied to a 0% resist which gives the full 35% increase in resistance.
The second rig is applied to 35% resist which is then a 35% increase of 65% = 22.75% increase in resistance. But it actually doesn't. This is because resistance rigs have stacking penalties. Which means the second T2 EM rig only provides 30.5% bonus to the remainder of 65% which equals an increase of 19.8% and an end result of 54.8%.
The third rig is stacking penalized and also receives the diminishing returns of only applying to the remaining 45.2% resistance hole.

Buffer rigs don't suffer from diminishing returns. They actually get enhancing returns as the more you use the more you get!

Buffer rigs are the issue. Not resistance rigs.


Buffer rigs are better on buffer fit.

News at 11.



and the award for dumbness, trying to be clever, making a Cpt Obvious statement and completely missing the point goes to...............




I'll spell it out for you.....

Buffer rigs need a nerf (and probably stacking penalties).
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#17 - 2015-08-20 13:25:45 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
I could be wrong, but I don't believe that compensation skills buff the resist amounts of resist rigs.

The only buff I could see is changing this so that compensation skills to work with resist rigs.



Skills that increase HP values also don't increase the bonus rigs apply. This is working as intended.

Like I said above, the issue is how HP buffer rigs apply to the final fitted ship stats and then pile on top of each other sequentially with out stacking penalties.

This isn't the case with resistance rigs as they apply sequentially to the remaining resistance hole.

For example -

Shields because of the zero stating point:

3 off T2 EM resistance rigs fitted to an unfitted ship provide an increase in resistances from 0% to 63.8% even though each rig provides 35% bonus to shield resistances.

So why isn't it a final 105% resistance? Because resistance buffs are applied to the remainder of the resistance.
The first rig is applied to a 0% resist which gives the full 35% increase in resistance.
The second rig is applied to 35% resist which is then a 35% increase of 65% = 22.75% increase in resistance. But it actually doesn't. This is because resistance rigs have stacking penalties. Which means the second T2 EM rig only provides 30.5% bonus to the remainder of 65% which equals an increase of 19.8% and an end result of 54.8%.
The third rig is stacking penalized and also receives the diminishing returns of only applying to the remaining 45.2% resistance hole.

Buffer rigs don't suffer from diminishing returns. They actually get enhancing returns as the more you use the more you get!

Buffer rigs are the issue. Not resistance rigs.


Buffer rigs are better on buffer fit.

News at 11.



and the award for dumbness, trying to be clever, making a Cpt Obvious statement and completely missing the point goes to...............




I'll spell it out for you.....

Buffer rigs need a nerf (and probably stacking penalties).


They don't need a nerf at all. They are good at what they do but don't overlap others in their own use case.
Zimmer Jones
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2015-08-20 13:56:53 UTC
What about just a reduction in stacking penalties for resist rigs?

Or, just for fun, go another way completely and have the rigs not as resists themselves but boost resist mods of their type, keeping the drawback of course. Useless rigs by themselves, not as utility and disposed of more often. Burn out your mods? Well rigs can no longer help you until said mod is replaced, but the drawbacks remain.

Of course that completely negates your concept of the rigs being useful on their own in comparison to mods, but i couldn't leave it at one question.

Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2015-08-20 14:13:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Spugg Galdon
Frostys Virpio wrote:


They don't need a nerf at all. They are good at what they do but don't overlap others in their own use case.



My point is that they are too good at what they do in comparison and also, their calibration point cost at this performance is too cheap.

Buffer rigs have needed a nerf for a long time.

Lets look at it from another angle.

Purger rigs increase shield recharge rate by reducing the time required to fully replenish the shields.

So a CDFP II reduces the shield recharge time by 25% per rig.

On a blank Drake:
The 1st CDFP II reduces the shield recharge time by 25%
A reduction of 262.5 seconds.

The 2nd CDFP II reduces this modified shield recharge time by 25%
A reduction of a further 196.9 seconds
Only 75% of the effect the 1st CDFP II
Or an effective reduction of 18.75% of the original recharge time.

The 3rd CDFP II reduces this modified modified shield recharge time by 25%
A reduction of a further 147.6 seconds
Only 75% of the effect of the 2nd CDFP II and only 56% as effective as the 1st CDFP II.

So 3 off CDFP II's at 25% reduction each only give a total reduction in shield recharge time by almost 58%

Whereas 3 off CDFE II rigs which buff shield hitpoints by 20% each give a total HP gain of 74%. See what's wrong here?

Purgers have a similar diminishing returns mechanic as resist rigs.

Other rigs also have very similar diminishing returns.

The only rigs, and maybe the only thing in the game, which has enhancing returns when fitting multiple of them are buffer rigs.

Am I making it clear enough as to why buffer rigs are broken yet?
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#20 - 2015-08-20 15:20:54 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


They don't need a nerf at all. They are good at what they do but don't overlap others in their own use case.



My point is that they are too good at what they do in comparison and also, their calibration point cost at this performance is too cheap.

Buffer rigs have needed a nerf for a long time.

Lets look at it from another angle.

Purger rigs increase shield recharge rate by reducing the time required to fully replenish the shields.

So a CDFP II reduces the shield recharge time by 25% per rig.

On a blank Drake:
The 1st CDFP II reduces the shield recharge time by 25%
A reduction of 262.5 seconds.

The 2nd CDFP II reduces this modified shield recharge time by 25%
A reduction of a further 196.9 seconds
Only 75% of the effect the 1st CDFP II
Or an effective reduction of 18.75% of the original recharge time.

The 3rd CDFP II reduces this modified modified shield recharge time by 25%
A reduction of a further 147.6 seconds
Only 75% of the effect of the 2nd CDFP II and only 56% as effective as the 1st CDFP II.

So 3 off CDFP II's at 25% reduction each only give a total reduction in shield recharge time by almost 58%

Whereas 3 off CDFE II rigs which buff shield hitpoints by 20% each give a total HP gain of 74%. See what's wrong here?

Purgers have a similar diminishing returns mechanic as resist rigs.

Other rigs also have very similar diminishing returns.

The only rigs, and maybe the only thing in the game, which has enhancing returns when fitting multiple of them are buffer rigs.

Am I making it clear enough as to why buffer rigs are broken yet?


A case could be made that they need to also be affected by stacking penalty but according to CCP in the missile rig "debacle" that would not be a nerf but just a fix to game mechanic not applying correctly to the rigs. Pretty sure they are the only % bonus mods with no stacking penalty but that's more a "should the stacking rules apply to those too" than a "do they need to be nerfed" question.

Also, shield regen is probably the mechanic with the most case of some module being border line self defeating.
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