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Balancing EWAR Drones
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Garrett Howe
New Eden Shipbuilding
#1 - 2015-08-18 18:36:18 UTC
As far as I can tell, EWAR drones are fairly useless except the ECM version, and maybe the neut version, since all of the other effects are stacking penalized. Even if you did have a use for them, their tank is so small and signature large that even the heavy version can pretty much be one-shot with frigate-sized weapons. Is there a reason why these drones can't at least be given the proper amount of health for a drone of their size? By using them, you are already giving up drone bandwidth that could be used for additional dps, so it seems asinine that they have so little benefit and be so easy to kill.
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#2 - 2015-08-18 19:44:29 UTC
Came in this thread expecting someone complaining about getting jammed. Instead shocked to find a reasonable query. I'm all for what OP has suggested.
Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2015-08-18 22:31:51 UTC
I am going to say no, as Ewar drones are not built for direct fire upon them like actual combat drones, that's the difference.

I think they (healthpoint wise) is in a somewhat tolerant place.
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#4 - 2015-08-19 00:26:14 UTC
Gecko-ify them.

Make them more effective, and take up more bandwidth.
Marech Bhayanaka
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2015-08-19 02:25:03 UTC
Celthric Kanerian wrote:
I am going to say no, as Ewar drones are not built for direct fire upon them like actual combat drones, that's the difference.

If they get fired on, like "actual" combat drones (where do you use ECM drones if not in combat?), then why would they not be built to stand up to it?

Marech.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2015-08-19 03:48:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
I think all of the EWAR drones used by one player against one target should have their effects combined together multiplicatively and counted as one stack.



For example:
5x Warrior-SW (5% slowing): 22.62% slowing
5x Valkyrie-SW (10% slowing): 40.95% slowing
15x Berserker-SW (20% slowing): 96.48% slowing

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Nyalnara
Marauder Initiative
#7 - 2015-08-19 07:31:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyalnara
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I think all of the EWAR drones used by one player against one target should have their effects combined together multiplicatively and counted as one stack.



For example:
5x Warrior-SW (4% slowing): 18.46% slowing
5x Valkyrie-SW (8% slowing): 34.09% slowing
15x Berserker-SW (20% slowing): 96.48% slowing


And for those who will complain about that being too damn high, remember that we're speaking about heavy drones with low HPs: they're easy to break. And also, slower than the combat variant, which means you can also speed-kite them. And there are not that much ships able to keep a whole set of large EWAR drones, nor afford it over a set of much more useful heavy combat drones.

French half-noob.

Non, je ne suis pas gentil.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2015-08-19 07:48:22 UTC
Yeah that's a whole carrier complement wasted on one ship. I put it there for lulz.

I fixed the slowing amount, I had it at 4% and 8%, but I looked it up and found it is 5% and 10%.
But I'd say the slowing amount needs to be buffed on the small and medium. They should slow better than the larges for the same amount of drone space, because it takes more drone slots. For example: 5 smalls should be significantly stronger than 1 large.

I suggest mediums be -12% speed, and smalls -8% speed. Then you get these values:

5x Warrior SW-300 (8% slowing): 34.09% slowing
2x Valkyrie + 1x Warrior: 28.76% slowing
1x Berserker SW-900: 20% slowing

5x Valkyrie SW-600 (12% slowing): 47.23% slowing
2x Berserker SW-900: 36.00% slowing

5x Berserker SW-900 (20% slowing): 67.23% slowing


This will still allow ships with larger drone bandwidths to slow ships more effectively with drones, but will give ships with less bandwidth a fighting chance, should they be willing to put all their drone slots to the cause.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2015-08-19 12:46:56 UTC
Nyalnara wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I think all of the EWAR drones used by one player against one target should have their effects combined together multiplicatively and counted as one stack.



For example:
5x Warrior-SW (4% slowing): 18.46% slowing
5x Valkyrie-SW (8% slowing): 34.09% slowing
15x Berserker-SW (20% slowing): 96.48% slowing


And for those who will complain about that being too damn high, remember that we're speaking about heavy drones with low HPs: they're easy to break. And also, slower than the combat variant, which means you can also speed-kite them. And there are not that much ships able to keep a whole set of large EWAR drones, nor afford it over a set of much more useful heavy combat drones.


It would be rather powerfull on ship like the TFI which has both good bandwidth and another weapon system. That's probably the cases where it might get a tiny little bit out of hands. Any dedicated drone ship sacrifice it's "weapon rack" to field drones like that.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2015-08-19 13:16:39 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
15x Berserker-SW (20% slowing): 96.48% slowing


It would be rather powerfull on ship like the TFI which has both good bandwidth and another weapon system. That's probably the cases where it might get a tiny little bit out of hands. Any dedicated drone ship sacrifice it's "weapon rack" to field drones like that.

With 5 drones it only slows 67.23%.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Nyalnara
Marauder Initiative
#11 - 2015-08-19 13:27:43 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
15x Berserker-SW (20% slowing): 96.48% slowing


It would be rather powerfull on ship like the TFI which has both good bandwidth and another weapon system. That's probably the cases where it might get a tiny little bit out of hands. Any dedicated drone ship sacrifice it's "weapon rack" to field drones like that.

With 5 drones it only slows 67.23%.

He missed the post where you recalculated.

French half-noob.

Non, je ne suis pas gentil.
Yockerbow
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2015-08-19 19:37:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Yockerbow
I was actually about to make a thread about this topic. I'll use this one instead.

I've been playing with the numbers and have some suggestions for modded stats. Some of these numbers will seem excessively high, but the idea is that if you're giving up 5 drones' worth of damage, you should get a good return on that. If not, you get exactly the current situation, where these drones are ignored in all but the most niche of situations. In the following lists, the numbers in parenthesis represent the change from current stats. All HP changes adjust them to be near, but not quite, as sturdy as the t1 combat versions. All estimates of net effectiveness carry the caveat "If I did the math right."

Tracking Disruptor Drones:

  1. Acolyte TD-300 Structure HP: 150 (+75) Max Range Multiplier: 0.92 (-0.03) Tracking Speed Multiplier: 0.92 (-0.03)
  2. Infiltrator TD-600 Structure HP: 250 (+125) Armor HP: 200 (+50) Max Range Multiplier: 0.85 (-0.03) Tracking Speed Multiplier: 0.85 (-0.03)
  3. Praetor TD-900 Structure HP: 600 (+350) Armor HP: 400 (+100) Max Range Multiplier: 0.7 (-0.05) Tracking Speed Multiplier: 0.7 (-0.05)


A flight of 5 lights should reduce tracking and range by 21%, 5 mediums would do it by 36%, and 5 heavies by 62% (numbers rounded). For reference, a t2 tracking disruptor with no scripts, advanced skills or bonuses reduces range/tracking by 17.2%, and an all-5 character in an Arbitrator with a script will reduce one of those attributes by 59.1% (no links).

Target Painter Drones:

  1. Warrior TP-300 Structure HP: 125 (+45) Armor HP: 90 (+40) Sig Radius Bonus: 10% (+6)
  2. Valkyrie TP-600 Structure HP: 250 (+140) Armor HP: 180 (+105) Sig Radius Bonus: 15% (+7)
  3. Berserker TP-900 Structure HP: 500 (+265) Armor HP: 360 (+210) Sig Radius Bonus: 27.5% (+7.5)


5 lights would bloom sig by 31%, 5 mediums by 49%, and 5 heavies by 103%. For reference, a t2 target painter unsupported by skills or bonuses increases sig radius by 30% (~56% on an all-5 Huginn). These numbers seem excessive, but TP's are a rare sight on the battlefield as-is. Honestly short of the ability to give frigates the sig radius of carriers, I doubt much will make TP drones anything near popular.

Sensor Dampener Drones:

  1. Hobgoblin SD-300 Structure HP: 225 (+125) Armor HP: 110 (+35) Targeting Range Bonus: -10% (-2) Scan Resolution Bonus: -10% (-2)
  2. Hammerhead SD-600 Structure HP: 525 (+325) Armor HP: 220 (+95) Targeting Range Bonus: -15% (-3) Scan Resolution Bonus: -15% (-3)
  3. Ogre SD-900 Structure HP: 1000 (+700) Armor HP: 440 (+190) Targeting Range Bonus: -30% (-5) Scan Resolution Bonus: -30% (-5)


5 lights reduce scan res/lock range by 26%, 5 mediums by 36%, 5 heavies by 62%. Base unscripted T2 reduces these by 15.3%. All-5 Lachesis with script reduces one by ~52.6%.

Energy Neutralizer Drones:

  1. Acolyte EV-300 Structure HP: 150 (+75) Energy Neutralized: 6 GJ (+1)
  2. Infiltrator EV-600 Structure HP: 250 (+125) Armor HP: 200 (+50) Energy Neutralized: 18 GJ (+8)
  3. Praetor EV-900 Structure HP: 600 (+350) Armor HP: 400 (+100) Energy Neutralized: 60 GJ (+35)


These adjustments would make a flight of these drones roughly equal (lights slightly better than) a single t2 neut of the appropriate size. It seems like an appropriate range of effectiveness to start from, though perhaps aiming for ~1.25-1.5 effective neuts may be better. Also, the abbreviation should probably be changed to EN- from EV-, as they are neuts and not vamps.

Stasis Webifier Drones:

  1. Warrior SW-300 Max Velocity: 3500 m/s (+1100) Structure HP: 100 (+40) Armor HP: 80 (+30) Max Velocity Bonus: -10% (-5) Signature Radius: 50m (-60)
  2. Valkyrie SW-600 Max Velocity: 2750 m/s (+750) Structure HP: 225 (+115) Armor HP: 160 (+85) Max Velocity Bonus: -20% (-10) Signature Radius: 80m (-30)
  3. Berserker SW-900 Max Velocity: 2000 m/s (+500) Structure HP: 480 (+245) Armor HP: 325 (+175) Max Velocity Bonus: -30% (-10) Signature Radius: 125m (+15)


By far the group that needs the most adjustment. Right now web drones can't catch anything, which completely negates the use for them, and even when they do catch on they do very little. These changes would allow them to catch things, and at peak skills the light versions would easily catch up to Entosis interceptors.

5 lights would reduce speed by 26%, 5 mediums by 46% (almost a t1 web), and 5 heavies by 62% (just over t2 web). HP changes would keep them a bit under t1 combat in terms of tank. Sig radius also really needs adjusting - all 3 sizes of webifier drone currently have a 110m sig radius according to o.smium and the eve wiki.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2015-08-19 20:03:44 UTC
Rawketsled wrote:
Gecko-ify them.

Make them more effective, and take up more bandwidth.


This is the only solution, I've suggest it before too.
Yockerbow
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2015-09-20 05:46:42 UTC
Bump because this topic definitely deserves attention.
Trobax
Doomheim
#15 - 2015-09-20 06:10:59 UTC
Ewar usually is employed by ships that have specific bonuses to it. Drone ewar is like a bypass to that. If you want ewar, fit a module for it and use spedific ships. Otherwise you end up in that rotten realm where every1 uses ecm drones to save their asses or permajam you with a ship that was never supposed to ecm you.

People use drones to attack and to rep. Jamming, neuting, webbing, and dampening is a module thing. At least you will sacrifice some utility slots for it. With drones you can have multiple sets depending on ship used.

Not that i care about ewar drones, a smartie can take care of them. If you like them, you can use them, but you're trying to fill in a role with a cheap alternative. Falcon, Pilgrim, Rapier and Arazu is the way to go, at least you are risking multi million platforms to get that ewar advantage. So back to the old Risk vs Reward.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#16 - 2015-09-20 07:29:15 UTC
Trobax wrote:
Ewar usually is employed by ships that have specific bonuses to it. Drone ewar is like a bypass to that. If you want ewar, fit a module for it and use spedific ships. Otherwise you end up in that rotten realm where every1 uses ecm drones to save their asses or permajam you with a ship that was never supposed to ecm you.

People use drones to attack and to rep. Jamming, neuting, webbing, and dampening is a module thing. At least you will sacrifice some utility slots for it. With drones you can have multiple sets depending on ship used.

Not that i care about ewar drones, a smartie can take care of them. If you like them, you can use them, but you're trying to fill in a role with a cheap alternative. Falcon, Pilgrim, Rapier and Arazu is the way to go, at least you are risking multi million platforms to get that ewar advantage. So back to the old Risk vs Reward.


One advantage of drone ships is supposed to be versatility. A set of Drone Mods to improve ewar function could be created, so that you would have to dedicate your ship to the type of drone you intend to use, while keeping the ability to use others at the lower unbuffed effectiveness.

Attack and Rep are also module things, unless I have been mistaken on how to fit guns and remote reps this whole time. No reason why drones should suck just to polish someone else's ePeen
Trobax
Doomheim
#17 - 2015-09-20 07:57:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Trobax
Mike Voidstar wrote:


One advantage of drone ships is supposed to be versatility. A set of Drone Mods to improve ewar function could be created, so that you would have to dedicate your ship to the type of drone you intend to use, while keeping the ability to use others at the lower unbuffed effectiveness.

Attack and Rep are also module things, unless I have been mistaken on how to fit guns and remote reps this whole time. No reason why drones should suck just to polish someone else's ePeen


Actually you are right. But dont forget that drone boats have bonuses to drone damage and hitpoints, not ewar capability. They are versatile because they apply dps through drones, and maintain the ability to fit high utility slots with reps, neuts, etc. Unless those ships have a bonus, repping / neuting range is very limited. And rep drones are actually close to useless, they dont provide a good boost unless you use them en mass( on 1 target). But ecm drones, can turn the tide easily, jamming multiple targets (and that due to the fact of ecm mechanics - not the actual drones).

Guns reduce those utility slots for reps neuts etc. Ofc you can drop everything if you like( guns) and fit utility on highs, for a 0 dps return.

All im saying is that unless you get a boat with drone ewar bonuses aka role specific ship, ewar drones can be a very cheap alternative. But why bother with a new ship / role, Recons / Electronic attack Frigates fill that niche.

Cost of Drones vs Cost of Role ships.
Trobax
Doomheim
#18 - 2015-09-20 08:22:23 UTC
TBH, my problem lies with ECM mechanics, which render a fleet ship utterly useless in battle (think permajam)

I dont mind ewar drones , as long as they got some drawbacks. Webber drones come in Heavy flavour only, that gives you immediately a capacity - bandwidth limitation.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#19 - 2015-09-20 09:31:22 UTC
Trobax wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:


One advantage of drone ships is supposed to be versatility. A set of Drone Mods to improve ewar function could be created, so that you would have to dedicate your ship to the type of drone you intend to use, while keeping the ability to use others at the lower unbuffed effectiveness.

Attack and Rep are also module things, unless I have been mistaken on how to fit guns and remote reps this whole time. No reason why drones should suck just to polish someone else's ePeen


Actually you are right. But dont forget that drone boats have bonuses to drone damage and hitpoints, not ewar capability. They are versatile because they apply dps through drones, and maintain the ability to fit high utility slots with reps, neuts, etc. Unless those ships have a bonus, repping / neuting range is very limited. And rep drones are actually close to useless, they dont provide a good boost unless you use them en mass( on 1 target). But ecm drones, can turn the tide easily, jamming multiple targets (and that due to the fact of ecm mechanics - not the actual drones).

Guns reduce those utility slots for reps neuts etc. Ofc you can drop everything if you like( guns) and fit utility on highs, for a 0 dps return.

All im saying is that unless you get a boat with drone ewar bonuses aka role specific ship, ewar drones can be a very cheap alternative. But why bother with a new ship / role, Recons / Electronic attack Frigates fill that niche.

Cost of Drones vs Cost of Role ships.



That point won't hold water either.

Plenty of ships fit scrams, disruptors, tracking disruptors, sensor Damps, nuets, etc... Without bonuses and to good effect.

There is no reason ewar drones should be so ineffective, especially on drone boats. I can certainly see giving tradeoffs by specialising for those drone types by eating high slots. Of course as offensive projected effects I have always felt that all ewar should be highslot items.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2015-09-20 10:19:13 UTC
Trobax wrote:
Ewar usually is employed by ships that have specific bonuses to it. Drone ewar is like a bypass to that. If you want ewar, fit a module for it and use spedific ships. Otherwise you end up in that rotten realm where every1 uses ecm drones to save their asses or permajam you with a ship that was never supposed to ecm you.

People use drones to attack and to rep. Jamming, neuting, webbing, and dampening is a module thing. At least you will sacrifice some utility slots for it. With drones you can have multiple sets depending on ship used.

Not that i care about ewar drones, a smartie can take care of them. If you like them, you can use them, but you're trying to fill in a role with a cheap alternative. Falcon, Pilgrim, Rapier and Arazu is the way to go, at least you are risking multi million platforms to get that ewar advantage. So back to the old Risk vs Reward.

Translation: EWAR drones suck currently, there fore the current meta has no room for them. Since they aren't used, there's no need to buff them.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
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