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War decs by me or "how flagging was better"

Author
Rellik B00n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2012-01-02 03:14:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Rellik B00n
to add to the litter of ill-thought out war dec ideas here is...
edit comments at end of post!


WAR FLAG


the background:
in the begining all eve was lawless. This lead to anarchy and an environment not friendly to new players. Iterations over several years have lead to now.


the pitch:
Bring in a member number based system that auto-flags you and your corp/alliance to everyone else with a flag.
This flag is a pvp flag.

So (pulling some numbers out of my azz) say if a corp has over 10(eg) members it is auto-flagged to all other corporations with flags.

If you have an alliance you automatically become flagged to everyone else with a flag.

added: Only flagged corps and alliances may run an active POS

added: EvE Uni should be granted special NPC status but players may only remain in alliance for 6(eg) weeks and cannot rejoin. Then Uni get to do their job and we lose another uncertainty in the system.



the pros:
* lawlessness returns.
* small corps/1 man corps can carry on in peace.
* forming an alliance means something other than you have 1bn ISK in the wallet.
* blues are still blue.
* logistics and logistics corps become meaningful.
* market and production are energized


the cons:
* small corps are immune.
* its still exploitable to a certain extent.


ive literally just thought of this so please add to the pros and cons, plus any thoughts on the overall viability. I really like it. Anyone that doesnt want in stays in an NPC corp (as now) or joins a small corp (as now). Everyone else has an extremely interesting life.

in response to post #2 added a line regarding POSes. Stops POS immunity I likey.
in response to post #2 EvE Uni should be granted special NPC status but players may only remain in alliance for 6 weeks and cannot rejoin. Then Uni get to do their job and we lose another uncertainty in the system.
[Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits?](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=199765)
McOboe
Viscosity
#2 - 2012-01-02 03:24:05 UTC
I like the idea. For one, it'd force those tiny pirate-wannabe corps to bulk up (however, granted, they could fill them with in-active alts). It would allow small (<10) corps to figure out whether they wanted to commit to the fight or not. One draw back would be the organizations such as EVE university, which is focused on training and typically works to avoid wars, and happens to have 1,000+ members. Otherwise, I would put a further restriction in that you need to have at least 10 people in your corp in order to own a POS.
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#3 - 2012-01-02 06:04:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Nestara Aldent
Your idea is very bad. Yes it allows more pvp, but FFA pvp without flagging would allow for even more pvp.

It ruins the immersion, for those who care about it.

One man corp wont be wardecced anyway, and having all corps with over ten members in war with each other is the most idiotic proposal I've heard. On the par with pink canes with violet flowers on them. How you can explain it from the fiction point of view, how would Empires allow it?
Rellik B00n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2012-01-02 19:39:22 UTC
Nestara Aldent wrote:
Your idea is very bad. Yes it allows more pvp, but FFA pvp without flagging would allow for even more pvp.

It ruins the immersion, for those who care about it.

One man corp wont be wardecced anyway, and having all corps with over ten members in war with each other is the most idiotic proposal I've heard. On the par with pink canes with violet flowers on them. How you can explain it from the fiction point of view, how would Empires allow it?


its not an empire issue, its a concord issue, and since concord allow war through bribes it could be given another angle from a RP perspective: "you guys are big enough to look aftger yourselves!"

i dont understand your first statement and i dont understand how it affects immersion negatively - if anything the immersion would be better.

I had already edited my OP to include a section about Eve-uni but ill bump it up a bit for you.
[Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits?](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=199765)
Jack Tronic
borkedLabs
#5 - 2012-01-02 20:15:17 UTC
If orphans want PVP so much, I heard theres other things to do ingame than camp stations all day.
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#6 - 2012-01-02 20:31:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Nestara Aldent
Rellik, you're wrong the game would be more immersive.

If Empires and Concord allow war in godforsaken place that is sov null, they wouldn't allow it in their home.
And this has nothing to do with the E-uni, but turning the game into FFA. I'm very much pro-pvp including highsec wars, but I'm against FFA.

There are other problems, what if you're in the pretty large corp, but you don't have anybody to group with? Do you really think people will wait enough corp mates to login so you can make a fleet for hauling or doing missions, because pretty much only way to survive in FFA Eve will be to be in the fleet at all times?

And hauling will cease to be a worthwhile profession. Now prices of hauling are very affordable. In FFA game haulers would need an escort at all times, and hauling prices would skyrocket. And its possible nobody would do the hauling as well, because of unacceptable risk vs. reward ratio.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#7 - 2012-01-02 20:33:16 UTC
the idea is bad, because you now have no "legitimate" recourse against that 9-man industrial group who continue to steal your ore, or are the industrial "suppliers" for one of your reds who have 10+ members ...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Dutarro
Ghezer Aramih
#8 - 2012-01-02 23:00:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Dutarro
Interesting line of thought. Some suggested tweaks:

- The threshold for PvP risk should be character skill points, rather than corporation size. This "PvP flag" kicks in at, say, 5m SP regardless of the character's corp membership.

- Shooting other PvP-flagged players in high sec should result in a sec status penalty for the aggressor, even though CONCORD does not intervene.

EDIT: Also, any high sec POS is automatically flagged, i.e. attackable by players who are themselves flagged.
ShipToaster
#9 - 2012-01-02 23:08:17 UTC
Rellik B00n wrote:
in response to post #2 EvE Uni should be granted special NPC status but players may only remain in alliance for 6 weeks and cannot rejoin. Then Uni get to do their job and we lose another uncertainty in the system.


You do realise that the current average age of pilots in eve university is a year and this will kick at least 80% of them? They will hate this idea.

.

Goose99
#10 - 2012-01-02 23:14:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Goose99
No, I should be granted special npc status too.

And btw, only industrial carebear corps need highsec POS. Therefore, only they get permadecced by all of eve. Nice. Goodbye T2.Lol
Epofhis
Amped.
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2012-01-02 23:25:46 UTC
Came expecting terrible idea.

Got terrible thread also.

Bonus, I guess?

-1. Not supported.

PS: I hear there's a lot of pvp that happens, you know, out of empire.

Before posting in Features and Ideas, please remember that Eve is in no way obligated to change based on your stupidity, ineptitude, or well honed sense of personal butthurt.

Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-01-02 23:26:08 UTC
Rellik B00n wrote:
added: EvE Uni should be granted special NPC status. Then Uni get to do their job and we lose another uncertainty in the system.


LOL.

Rellik B00n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2012-01-03 01:01:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Rellik B00n
Jack Tronic wrote:
If orphans want PVP so much, I heard theres other things to do ingame than camp stations all day.


nothing to do with orphans just throwing some positive constructive ideas out there. O wait eve forums my bad.


Nestara Aldent wrote:
Rellik, you're wrong the game would be more immersive.

I'm very much pro-pvp including highsec wars, but I'm against FFA.

Do you really think people will wait enough corp mates to login so you can make a fleet for hauling or doing missions, because pretty much only way to survive in FFA Eve will be to be in the fleet at all times?

In FFA game haulers would need an escort at all times, and hauling prices would skyrocket. .


o look an eve uni person deliberately mis-interpreting the idea. This does not make eve ffa. It makes it so under certain conditions you become 'eligable' for pvp. Grouping to run missions? no flagged. Haulers hauling? not flagged. If these people get into a situation where they are flagged more fool them. Also you have yet to give a reason why this would be less rather than more immersive.


Velicitia wrote:
the idea is bad, because you now have no "legitimate" recourse against that 9-man industrial group who continue to steal your ore, or are the industrial "suppliers" for one of your reds who have 10+ members ...


this is completely valid but I guess that is where a dev comes in. Atm you have invulnerable high sec poses, dec shield groups to remove war decs and alts to name but a few issues. There will always be a way round im just trying to create a condition where more people are pvp-ing than not.


Dutarro wrote:
Interesting line of thought. Some suggested tweaks:
- The threshold for PvP risk should be character skill points kicks in at, say, 5m SP regardless of the character's corp membership.
- Shooting other PvP-flagged players in high sec should result in a sec status penalty for the aggressor
EDIT: Also, any high sec POS is automatically flagged, i.e. attackable by players who are themselves flagged.


if its bound to skillpoints industrial players get the shaft but good idea. The POS thing is given, if youre flashy so is your POS. Suicide gankers have demonstrated sec hits are pointless and low sec proves how unpopular it is with players. I appreciate your thoughts im just not convinced.

Goose99, re: T2 - whats to stop this happening right now? And are all these many t2 corps 10+ members? If they are alliances then do they not have a pvp wing? Is a higher price for t2 modules a bad thing? And so on.

Poetic Stanzie wrote:
Rellik B00n: added: EvE Uni should be granted special NPC status. Then Uni get to do their job and we lose another uncertainty in the system.
LOL.



I know, i know, its got to be a troll right? Find the GM sanctioned dropping of dec exploit thread in GD. See all those likes on the first post? Thats Eve uni. Now, i know you already know this but my point is that since they seem to have some sort of protection from the developers anyway why not just write it in? Like prohibition to legalization, sometimes its easier to just accept the elephant in the room and work with it. By making eve-uni 'official' you can then add in a time limit to stop the situation we have now: an undeccable alliance of players old enough to know better.
[Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits?](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=199765)
ShipToaster
#14 - 2012-01-03 02:05:51 UTC
Rellik B00n wrote:
I know, i know, its got to be a troll right? Find the GM sanctioned dropping of dec exploit thread in GD. See all those likes on the first post? Thats Eve uni. Now, i know you already know this but my point is that since they seem to have some sort of protection from the developers anyway why not just write it in? Like prohibition to legalization, sometimes its easier to just accept the elephant in the room and work with it. By making eve-uni 'official' you can then add in a time limit to stop the situation we have now: an undeccable alliance of players old enough to know better.


Solid logic.

.

McOboe
Viscosity
#15 - 2012-01-03 02:23:47 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
the idea is bad, because you now have no "legitimate" recourse against that 9-man industrial group who continue to steal your ore, or are the industrial "suppliers" for one of your reds who have 10+ members ...


You'll have to explain what you mean by "stealing" your ore. I assume you don't mean that a corp would try to lay "claim" to a high-sec space. As for the idea of a 9-man corp "supplying" a 10+ corp, they could have NPC corp players doing that as well. The benefit of the suppliers being in a "corp" would be that you could flag them appropriately for follow-up suicide-gank.

And I agree with ShipToaster and Rellik B00n. Effectively, you could make them a full up NPC corp that people could "join". However, with no admins and teachers around, I could see them being essentially useless. It may be better to just let folks "join" any NPC corp that they wanted. If folks don't like the corp "lite" idea, then joining an NPC corp of choice is an alternative.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-01-03 03:56:13 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
Goose99 wrote:

And btw, only industrial carebear corps need highsec POS. Therefore, only they get permadecced by all of eve. Nice. Goodbye T2.Lol


^this, so much of this.

The only reason to anchor a high sec POS is for research and invention. The only people who do it are industrialists who can't fight. I used to have some degree of respect for Orphange, because unlike other highsec deccers, they dec and hit large sov null entities instead of grief 10 man noob corps for easy picking as all others do. That's out the window now.

Counter proposal for Flag system:

When you get decced, you can choose to "publicize" dec. Publicized dec appears on a list, any unlimited number of corps/alliances can check on that list to accept dec free of charge. More fights to/for the fighters. Want flashies to shoot? check off every dec on that list to accept all wars in Eve.
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#17 - 2012-01-03 09:22:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Nestara Aldent
Quote:
o look an eve uni person deliberately mis-interpreting the idea. This does not make eve ffa. It makes it so under certain conditions you become 'eligable' for pvp. Grouping to run missions? no flagged. Haulers hauling? not flagged. If these people get into a situation where they are flagged more fool them. Also you have yet to give a reason why this would be less rather than more immersive.


How about I put a web and scram on my indy? Will that flag me? Now flagging should work based on whether you have offensive modules installed or not, right? And that will not work good.

An Osprey mining fit can have one missile launcher to kill weak belt rats. So is it combat or mining vessel now?
And indies and mining vessels can scram and web.

And E-UNI (or any other corp) to have a special status, that's too wrong. You know E-UNI must have some veteran players to show newbies how to play, with your proposal implemented they'll be forced to leave in essence making E-UNI unable to fullfill its role.

So my initial judgment remains the same, your proposal is poorly thought-out and will ruin the game if implemented.
Rellik B00n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2012-01-03 13:41:47 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Goose99 wrote:

And btw, only industrial carebear corps need highsec POS. Therefore, only they get permadecced by all of eve. Nice. Goodbye T2.Lol


^this, so much of this.

The only reason to anchor a high sec POS is for research and invention. The only people who do it are industrialists who can't fight. I used to have some degree of respect for Orphange, because unlike other highsec deccers, they dec and hit large sov null entities instead of grief 10 man noob corps for easy picking as all others do. That's out the window now.

Counter proposal for Flag system:

When you get decced, you can choose to "publicize" dec. Publicized dec appears on a list, any unlimited number of corps/alliances can check on that list to accept dec free of charge. More fights to/for the fighters. Want flashies to shoot? check off every dec on that list to accept all wars in Eve.


Right. Firstly do you see anything suggesting this is an orphanage idea? Its my idea and has nothing to do with my corp or alliance so lets put that one to bed right here. Also we do still dec large entities so the "exploit not exploits anymore" doesnt affect us.

Secondly I accept there may be teething problems such as invention but T2 is under-priced anyway and there are enough corps and alliances that can fight that would be happy to take indy corps in - kind of like making industrialists and fighters work together to achieve a group goal - you know like an MMO?

Lastly publicized dec is eve worse than the situation we have now as that leaves no way of declaring war against those that do not wish to war. You think anyone called afghanistan and said "hey lads, in 24 hours we are going to send some soliders in to start fighting you"? People that do not wish to war are not necessarily newbies learning the game - they are mostly competitors that you wish to remove from the competition.


Nestara Aldent wrote:
Quote:
o look an eve uni person deliberately mis-interpreting the idea. This does not make eve ffa. It makes it so under certain conditions you become 'eligable' for pvp. Grouping to run missions? no flagged. Haulers hauling? not flagged. If these people get into a situation where they are flagged more fool them. Also you have yet to give a reason why this would be less rather than more immersive.


How about I put a web and scram on my indy? Will that flag me? Now flagging should work based on whether you have offensive modules installed or not, right? And that will not work good.
An Osprey mining fit can have one missile launcher to kill weak belt rats. So is it combat or mining vessel now?
And indies and mining vessels can scram and web.
And E-UNI (or any other corp) to have a special status, that's too wrong. You know E-UNI must have some veteran players to show newbies how to play, with your proposal implemented they'll be forced to leave in essence making E-UNI unable to fullfill its role.
So my initial judgment remains the same, your proposal is poorly thought-out and will ruin the game if implemented.


the next time you post in this thread please make sure its OT and that you have read the OP. Im not sure if english is your second language or you are just trolling me?
Look at OP then read what you wrote: at NO POINT does it say haulers or miners in ospreys will be fighting because they have warfare modules fitted.
And i completely agree that Eve uni should not have special status but OMG! Too late dude, you already do - so lets embrace that and move on together?
Please do not troll my thread anymore.

ps: you still havent mentioned why this is less immersive.
[Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits?](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=199765)
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2012-01-03 17:18:55 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
Rellik B00n wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Goose99 wrote:

And btw, only industrial carebear corps need highsec POS. Therefore, only they get permadecced by all of eve. Nice. Goodbye T2.Lol


^this, so much of this.

The only reason to anchor a high sec POS is for research and invention. The only people who do it are industrialists who can't fight. I used to have some degree of respect for Orphange, because unlike other highsec deccers, they dec and hit large sov null entities instead of grief 10 man noob corps for easy picking as all others do. That's out the window now.

Counter proposal for Flag system:

When you get decced, you can choose to "publicize" dec. Publicized dec appears on a list, any unlimited number of corps/alliances can check on that list to accept dec free of charge. More fights to/for the fighters. Want flashies to shoot? check off every dec on that list to accept all wars in Eve.


Right. Firstly do you see anything suggesting this is an orphanage idea? Its my idea and has nothing to do with my corp or alliance so lets put that one to bed right here. Also we do still dec large entities so the "exploit not exploits anymore" doesnt affect us.

Secondly I accept there may be teething problems such as invention but T2 is under-priced anyway and there are enough corps and alliances that can fight that would be happy to take indy corps in - kind of like making industrialists and fighters work together to achieve a group goal - you know like an MMO?

Lastly publicized dec is eve worse than the situation we have now as that leaves no way of declaring war against those that do not wish to war. You think anyone called afghanistan and said "hey lads, in 24 hours we are going to send some soliders in to start fighting you"? People that do not wish to war are not necessarily newbies learning the game - they are mostly competitors that you wish to remove from the competition.


I apologize if you misunderstand. But your vocalized viewpoints do affect the reputation of the entity you belong to. It's unavoidable when posting with your main. There are forum alts. Posting with your main is a statement of acceptance in taking this responsibility.

Flagging for highsec POS ensures that only industralists who cannot fight are permanently decced by everyone, while fighter chars who has the combat SP can avoid decs at leisure. This is the opposite of what a war is.

In Eve, there are many professions. If everyone is meant to fight, then only gunnery SP would exist. Those who choose to play the industrial way in their sandbox do not wish war, because they cannot fight. Wall Street is not Afghanistan. In Eve, as in the world, there are different time and place for different activities, behave appropriately accordingly.

In order to outcompete business rival in the marketplace, you can offer better products or services at a lower price. Walking into their office and go on a shooting spree is something completely different. Those who do aren't business people interested in business competition at all, and are in fact looking for something else. Any pretext will do.

Publicizing wardecs brings fights to those that wish it, as they say they do. Although I suspect some of them may not mean what they say, and are in fact farmers of a different variety.Roll
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#20 - 2012-01-03 17:53:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Nestara Aldent
You haven't answered how the indy and mining ships (in 10+ corp) with combat capability (web, scram) would be handled.

Its either they're flagged, thus unable to fulfill hauling or mining duty, or not flagged thus gaining unfair advantage. Now answer how you mean to handle it? Maybe flag them based on modules they equip?

If they aren't flagged what would happen if they attack somebody? Concord attack?

With so many holes in it maybe the proposal isn't good from the start?

And no pointiog out flaws in your proposal isn't trolling.

And do you really think E-UNI CEO should have only six months of experience?

And about the immersion, Empires would tolerate lawlessness in their space to a certain degree only, because not all of Eve is Wild West.
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