Intergalactic Summit

I like banana ice cream. Not everyone does. People make different choices for a large number of reasons and trying to play those choices off as somehow morally superior one way or the other is the most despicable, cowardly, craven little attempt at manipulating people's reactions that I can think of, drone-lover.

No. You don't care about the Minmatar slaves in the Empire. You might care about your precious ideals, your abstract principles, but don't even pretend you care about any of those people as people.

I would sooner trust an Amarr loyalist like Samira Kernher with their well-being than your entire misguided, anarchistic, smug, self-righteous Federation. Last I checked, she hasn't committed genocidal war crimes (she's certainly shot people over things, but genocide... nope) against people for the insufferable offense of wanting self-determination.

You know, that 'freedom' thing you're so keen on. It's all well and good until someone wants to be free of you, isn't it?

I appear to have touched a nerve.

The question is legitimate, I'm afraid, not a manipulation. It's not a claim for moral superiority - no doubt the majority like to be economically secure and have their families protected by laws and safeguards, rather than being in any fundamental way committed to the Constitution that ensures those rights. Nonetheless, Matari should consider the question seriously, just as your own choice to abandon your own people for a new order is a legitimate line of self-relflection. How are you going to protect your people and free and feed those enslaved if you don't have friends like us?

And by the by, what's wrong with loving drones? They are often gentle and sensitive lovers.

Of course I don't care about any of those people as people, I don't know them. Principles drive behaviours, and shape policies. There's a fair few within the Federation that would wihdraw all support for Minamatar, republic or otherwise, and let them sink or swim. As someone else wrote, there's far more for us to gain by being pragmatic and being allies with the Empire. Oh, but then there's those principles you have a problem with.

It's a rather false equivalence to compare Lieutenant Kernher's individual record on genocide to an entire civilisation. I'll agree with you that in that narrow comparison, she comes out ahead. Amarr, not so much. Personally, I think we made some serious misjudgements over the Caldari secession, but it wasn't handled well on either side. We each went off the deep-end of extremism.

Try a scoop of coconut ice cream next to a scoop of banana ice-cream and maybe add a little sweet chili sauce...

As for freedom I prefer to be free of clothing and 'morally superior' inhibitions. Oddly the ice cream comes in handy then too...

Your fundamental point in the above seems to be that principles guide behaviours for nations and individuals. Because of this, the statement you made earlier wasn't a manipulation, but was a statement of principle. I ... hmm. How best to reply to this. I apologize in advance.

First, your thesis that principles guide behaviours. This is flatly wrong. First order human behaviour is driven largely by emotional impulse. Principle influences behaviour only when ethics and principles are explicitly brought to mind immediately beforehand, within short term recall distance from the point of action. Even then, second order rationality typically intervenes to allow the emotional-impulse behaviour to dominate by creating a principled rationalization of the impulse action.

As an example, your text above was a manipulation attempt. By decomposition:

It begins with a dismissal of the opposing viewpoint ("I touched a nerve" implies that the opponent is speaking out of anger, so the statements can be ignored), then claims that it was not proposing moral superiority while denigrating the people who do not support those morals (the majority is implied to have a hypocritical or immoral, opportunistic position). It then implies that those who disagree do not seriously consider the ideals of the Federation instead of having their own stable beliefs coming to their conclusion, and then proposes that Ms Culome has abandoned her kin by choosing to not support the Republic - this latter point is quite clearly a manipulation of the 'guilt trip' variety. Suggesting that she hasn't seriously considered this, and then following with a suggestion that the Federation is required as an ally to save her kin is the conclusion of the first segment.

The second block clarifies that you don't care about people you don't know 'as people', which ... well, I won't analyse the ethical ramifications of this. It stands on its own. Following is your erroneous statement that principle drives behaviour - if anything, behaviour drives principle. The reality is much more complicated. This is followed by a threatening statement that the Federation will withdraw support for the Minmatar people, which nicely mirrors your statement leading this block. It's suggested that only principles bar this from happening, which acts to reinforce the suggestion that these principles are correct and should not be questioned.

I agree with the false equivalence statement in the concluding paragraph; that is in fact a false equivalence. It's interesting that you employ a false equivalence immediately thereafter in declaring that the Caldari reaction to attempted genocide was just as bad as the genocide attempt itself. This is unrelated to the suggestion that the Federal principles should be accepted, however, making it an odd way to conclude the statement.

Nowhere in the above were the Federal principles shown to have any internal support or inherent reason for being adopted; every point used was a manipulation. This is a little odd, given that the discussion itself is about principled behaviour, so these things should have been primed by recency effect. I might gently suggest that the author re-examine what statement he is trying to make, and why he's trying to make it.



P.S.: Drones don't feel things the way people do. If you care about your drones, help them accomplish their utility functions - not yours.

Ew.

uh...

n-no.....

Oh my gosh. When you were talking about, uh, the, the recreational medical-grade hardware, you meant that?

ew ew ew ew ew

You will be pleased to know that I take very good care of my automated servitors. Any drone is given timely maintenance, and their usage strictly adheres to operating procedures and schedules of operation is well within the limits of acceptable time length.

Drones that show creativity and initiative are granted chassis upgrades.

You can call us Federals many things, and oyu often have. Go on. Go right ahead with that. I won't stop you. Call us culturally imperialistic. Call us elitist. Call us ivory-tower utopians. Call us no better than the Amarr if you want, but read my lips - no Minmatar, loyalist, old-Republican, new-Tribal or independent, has earned the right to slander the Federation as uncaring.

We cared enough that long before the Rebellion we were providing safe haven for escaped slaves from across the cluster when your own homeworlds weren't safe to inhabit. We cared enough that the Rebellion, when it happened, had the financial backing of our nation's coffers and a dozen Federal corporations - while we were still at war with the Caldari! We cared enough that we helped build your nation's civilian and military eduation system. We cared enough that we poured tens of billions of Federal dollars in start-up corporations with no guarantee they'd ever provide a return on investment - hell, some of them still haven't! - just to stimulate the Republic's fledgling economy.

We cared enough that we took in trillions of the people your society couldn't look after and we gave them homes, jobs, healthcare, education, citizenship - and because even after all the money that cost us, we were still living in times of plenty, we shared the wealth! The Republic received tens of billions of ISK in foreign aid programs because the Federation cared.

What did the Minmatar, with their fabled loyalty and integrity do in return for our friendship?

Where were the Minmatar when Sukuuvestaa sold foodstuffs to the Federation so defective they caused brain damage in children? Where were the Minmatar when Serpentis stole the Molyneux? Where were the Minmatar when the skies of Reschard and Seyllin burnt? Did you not care?

Oh no, but let's remember what you did do - you started the goddamn Empyrean War. You spent all the goddamn money we gave to you so you could look after your goddamn citizens on capital ships and launched an all-out attack on CONCORD that brought the DED tumbling to its knees, letting Tibus Heth into our space to kill our people and lay siege to our worlds. You didn't even bother to warn us, give us some time to prepare. Did you not care?

Of course, I should keep things in perspective. It's not like the Minmatar have ever actually, say, broken a ton of treaties and attacked us... oh, no, wait, what am I thinking? Yes you have! Deciding that it wasn't the Federation's right to punish a Federal criminal who'd committed a crime against Federal law in Federal territory in a Federal court, you invaded our territory and opened fire on our defence forces, killing tens of thousands of Navymen in Colelie. Dozens of Republican capsuleers were present, saw this blatant violation of our sovereignty and instead of attempting to rein in their nation's navy, they helped murder our people, in our territory!

And do you know what we monstrous, imperialistic, tyrannical, uncaring Federals did in response? We handed over the criminal you wanted anyway, because - gods help us all! - we thought that your friendship was more important to us than the lives of our Navymen! Did we get so much as an apology, condolences, a tacit admission of fault from the Republic? Not a chance! Hell, you managed to look worse than the Amarr, who, when Uriam Kador invaded our space, made profuse apologies, explicitly stated that the attack had not been authorised and punished the guilty party (albeit lightly). Hell, when we found the traitor Eturer was hiding in Amarr space, they even let our fleet move in and capture him unhindered by way of reparations.

Perhaps the Republic and the Federation's friendship cannot last. But don't you ever dare tell me we didn't put our heart into it.

Touched a nerve have we Andreus? I see little need to be so defensive. If you have a particular problem with the Matari then that is one thing but many are still trying to work on strengthening the relationship between the Federation and the Republic. However rocky that relationship is, it would not be in the Federations best interest to make the Republic an enemy, nor would it be in the best Interest of the Republic to antagonize the Federation. After all imagine the political situation of the Republic were to ally with the state against the Federation, it wouldn't be a positive outcome for anyone.

the leaders of the Federation and the Republic know better than committing to a full scale war and as someone who values peace I am glad they do.

Mr. Ixiris, while there are many things we don't agree on, you make your point very well, and I can't find a way to disagree. For better or worse, the Federation cares.

You paint a vivid picture. I think I understand.