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Citadels: Autonomous Guns

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Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross
Unreasonable Bastards
#1 - 2015-08-16 19:32:30 UTC
I know this is still an early stage of development, but I think this needs to be addressed early because it's important.

Just became aware that citadels will not have autonomous guns similarly to POS'. In other words, if someone entosis' your citadel while nobody from your corp is online, it has no defenses. Even outside of invulnerability timer, it should be dangerous to approach someone else's starbase - as it's currently dangerous to approach an empty POS.

ATM a POS will shoot you even if nobody is in there. Citadels should be the same, even if they have reduced DPS (similarly to the way a POS has reduced offense without a POS gunner).
Grezh
Hextrix Enterprise
#2 - 2015-08-16 20:11:44 UTC
The only reason you have given is the "That's how it has always been" and that isn't a very solid reason. POSs have automatic guns on all the time because they can be attacked all the time, with the reinforcement timer giving the defender time to prepare. Citadels do not have the problem of being always vulnerable to attack and if I read the devblog right the vulnerability window will be incredibly flexible, and allow you to shift it to the 1-2 days a week that you corp has people online. If your corp can't get anyone to be online to man the citadel guns during your small 6 hour total vulnerability timer per week then your corp might as well be non-existent.
Tom Gerard
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
#3 - 2015-08-16 20:13:08 UTC
The whole point of this system is to get players online, having an automated defense still allows people to go AFK for months while retaining valuable real-estate.

I do not support this idea.

Now with 100% less Troll.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#4 - 2015-08-16 20:29:06 UTC
Tom Gerard wrote:
The whole point of this system is to get players online, having an automated defense still allows people to go AFK for months while retaining valuable real-estate.

I do not support this idea.

Except it doesn't. What an automated defence allows is players to actually PLAY the game rather than sit at their Citadel in fear of an attacker in a rookie ship with an entosis coming by and destroying billions of isk of investment.
It means they can actually move around EVE and do things.
And it means that people who don't have perfectly consistent log in times aren't screwed the second something comes up.

However, there do happen to be existing threads for this feedback, it doesn't need a new thread (Yet)
Grezh
Hextrix Enterprise
#5 - 2015-08-16 20:37:11 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Except it doesn't. What an automated defence allows is players to actually PLAY the game rather than sit at their Citadel in fear of an attacker in a rookie ship with an entosis coming by and destroying billions of isk of investment.
It means they can actually move around EVE and do things.
And it means that people who don't have perfectly consistent log in times aren't screwed the second something comes up.

However, there do happen to be existing threads for this feedback, it doesn't need a new thread (Yet)


If you have billions of isk in the citadel I would expect that you have at least someone within a few jumps of it to run there, dock up and blap the idiot troll. If you don't then calm down, you have 2 more timers to lose before you will be forced to pay 10% to move the stuff to a lowsec npc station.
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross
Unreasonable Bastards
#6 - 2015-08-16 21:19:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Murkar Omaristos
Alright, there are a lot of points here, so I'm going to address them one at a time in the most reasonable way I know how. Sorry if this is a long-ish post.

There should be exceptions perhaps. XL citadels for example should not have autonomous guns, since outposts currently do not. If mediums are intended to replace POSes though, they should fulfill the role that POSes did, which includes autonomous gunning.

___________________________________________________________

1) Let's start with this:

Quote:
The only reason you have given is the "That's how it has always been" and that isn't a very solid reason.


Yes, this is a perfectly legitimate reason to leave things the way they are. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The current POS gunning system is fantastic. In fact, it's one of the only things that I've never seen complaints about on the forum. The target for POS reform (mainly mechanics like docking, reactions, moon mining, manufacturing, etc.) should not be implemented in such a way as to also break the current mechanics which work well. Those should be left as is.

2)
Quote:
Citadels do not have the problem of being always vulnerable to attack and if I read the devblog right the vulnerability window will be incredibly flexible, and allow you to shift it to the 1-2 days a week that you corp has people online.


This is also a problem - the flexibility of timers. During US time zone, all the US time zone players are playing on the defensive because they are vulnerable. This means that all US time zone players are defending their own space rather than going to other space for gudfites during their prime time zone. This is how it's played out in null sec with sov. However this is an entirely other issue and beyond the scope of this thread.

3)
Quote:
The whole point of this system is to get players online, having an automated defense still allows people to go AFK for months while retaining valuable real-estate.


This is untrue, because CCP has stated havingcitadel services online will consume fuel. If it didn't, the ice market would disappear (which obviously CCP has thought about). Also as per what nevyn pointed out, this doesn't get players online (at least it certainly hasn't in null sec). In fact it has had the opposite effect.

4)
Quote:
f your corp can't get anyone to be online to man the citadel guns during your small 6 hour total vulnerability timer per week then your corp might as well be non-existent.


Being a POS gunner for six hours a week does not constitute content. Also lacking autonomous guns means you cannot prevent your POS' being scouted and tacticals made around them outside of your corps' time zone. It should not be safe to scout a pos in non-cloakies, period. Further, POS gunner reaction time will be slow, whereas a POS currently would kill a cruiser that decided to check it out. It should remain this way.
Kazaheid Zaknafein
Zaknafein Tactical Reconnaissance
#7 - 2015-08-16 23:25:34 UTC
The Citadels should have basic weapons be available passively; with heavier firepower, drones, ewar, and other means of defense only active if manned.

By no means should a citadel be able to take down a focused effort from a properly sized fleet, but a few trolls should find screwing with a defensively fit citadel quite difficult. Whether or not this should apply to other structures to be released is a question for another day. Citadels are intended to be fortresses in space, and they should be able to protect themselves while the corp is off on a roam for the day.
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross
Unreasonable Bastards
#8 - 2015-08-16 23:30:45 UTC
Kazaheid Zaknafein wrote:
The Citadels should have basic weapons be available passively; with heavier firepower, drones, ewar, and other means of defense only active if manned.

By no means should a citadel be able to take down a focused effort from a properly sized fleet, but a few trolls should find screwing with a defensively fit citadel quite difficult. Whether or not this should apply to other structures to be released is a question for another day. Citadels are intended to be fortresses in space, and they should be able to protect themselves while the corp is off on a roam for the day.


^^ This I agree with. Like a pos, unless it's a death star, should not be able to fend off a well organized fleet. However one dude in a non-cloaky cruiser should die if he/she tries to scout it.
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#9 - 2015-08-17 01:15:56 UTC
your citadel has a vulnerability window which is your primetime, the attacker has to entose it 1h long, in 3 stages through all RF times till it explodes.

if you are not online in that time to man the guns it deserves to explode.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Murkar Omaristos
The Alabaster Albatross
Unreasonable Bastards
#10 - 2015-08-17 01:23:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Murkar Omaristos
That is irrelevant, the point of guns on a pos isn't just to prevent it getting blown up. Trap bubbles to kill scouts are common for example. Ye of narrow vision, think about the other possible effects of removing pos guns, not just showing up for your timer.

Also, to re-quote myself:


Quote:
Being a POS gunner for six hours a week does not constitute content.
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#11 - 2015-08-17 01:53:30 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Except it doesn't. What an automated defence allows is players to actually PLAY the game rather than sit at their Citadel in fear of an attacker in a rookie ship with an entosis coming by and destroying billions of isk of investment.
It means they can actually move around EVE and do things.
And it means that people who don't have perfectly consistent log in times aren't screwed the second something comes up.


The reality is that rookie ships with entosis links should not going to be destroying your citadels. Your attacker must come to attack you on three separate occasions, and any time he or she forfeits this opportunity you will be resetting the building back to neutral. I guess if your entire corporation or alliance chooses to ignore 3 attacks over the course of a week then yes a rookie ship could take it down -- but for some reason I find this unlikely.

You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
Grezh
Hextrix Enterprise
#12 - 2015-08-17 02:04:15 UTC
Murkar Omaristos wrote:

Also, to re-quote myself:


Quote:
Being a POS gunner for six hours a week does not constitute content.


The idea that the only defender would sit in the pos manning the guns for 6 hours a week is a ridiculous notion unless you are being constantly attacked, in which case there is significant pressure to remove you from the space and you really should have more defenders to keep your citadel. A defender just needs to be doing whatever it is they like near enough to hurry over and man the guns. Even a troll wastes more of their own time if your defender is quick to respond every time.