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Dev blog: Citadels, sieges and you

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#81 - 2015-08-13 21:40:55 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Entosis is supposed to measure who controls the field and capitals should have a role to play in that. How effective that visions works out will depend a lot on the capital rebalance which is gaining some momentum at the moment.

How exactly is this going to work in high-sec where capitals are prohibited?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#82 - 2015-08-13 21:53:04 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Absent Sworn wrote:

That's only a relevant question if you have a choice between one of these things and a POS. Maybe what you're missing is that you won't.

And there in lies the issue.

Exactly. All those "improve the POS" threads were made to get just that: Structures that were superior to the POS in terms of fun game play. If citadels are worse, then many POS users will be screaming at CCP.
At present the things I see that make the medium structure worse than a POS:

It cannot defend itself, like a POS. I have to be there, at all my structures, all the time. I cannot go on vacation.
To made it useful, I may have to use rigs, meaning I cannot defend it by scooping it, like I can with a POS.
I cannot do it all in one structure. I cannot refine, build, and research all in one with good efficiency. Instead, I need multiple structures.
Citadels will really be bad if you find its better to use an NPC station.

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Frozen fanfiction
Dr Loveless
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#83 - 2015-08-13 21:59:24 UTC
Quote:
Any external party to the corporation will only be able to see the timer related to the current state. For example, a scout may learn the structure is in reinforced state 2, with 5 hours left on it by going to the solar system where the structure is located. However the same scout will not be able to guess how the vulnerability window is weekly set. In the same manner, we want to avoid automation for this particular information, which means not displaying it in the API, since we want people to actively scout, or infiltrate spies in the target entity they wish to disrupt instead of relying on external tools to do the job for them.


It's OK that attacker can't see vulnerability windows but timers should show when you can attack (at some point of vulnerability window).
People must sleep, go to work and this kind of s**t. People will not live in EVE and can't sit on station 24/7 and waiting for vulnerability window. Which can be problem for smaller corporations that play in one timezone.
Orm Magnustat
Red Serpent Industries
Red Serpent Alliance
#84 - 2015-08-13 22:05:08 UTC
Saisin wrote:
Orm Magnustat wrote:

...
Has this entosis crap (that you are betting your farm on) actually stood the test of time in your eyes, so that you have to spread it across the whole of this universe?

The fundamental concepts of entosis are good. You may not like it because you can hide behind a school of capital guns, but this is the best way for the game to continue to evolve, and offer to new players perspective other than "to play, you must join the existing blobs". There are a few tweaks remaining to be done, like shutting down velocity of entosis ships or reducing nodes numbers slightly and making uncontested nodes revert to the defender over time.

Accumulation of DPS will always remain the main key to grid domination, but not anymore the only weapon to skirmish against stronger opponents.


"The fundamental concepts of entosis are good." - What makes you think so? That you personally like it? I take a look at some player statistics and get a totally different picture. The horrible losses in player activity during the last half year say a lot about the anticipations that people have about this change of paradigm. And when I look at the statistics since its actual introduction it seems that the "natural" slightly increased server activity (testing the waters) after such an important update is dropping again sharply just after three weeks (but its quite early too call this a trend).

This is the best way for the game to "evolve" ??? Evolution is a process of gradually enhancing the existing functionalities. Ripping out someones heart and replacing it by sthg completely different can be hardly called evolution. Just now you can see how core aspects of the game are (about to be) removed - and what it does to the player base.

Truely not good. (imho)
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#85 - 2015-08-13 22:14:44 UTC
So... when can we start expecting these structures?

I have ants in my pants waiting for them... and no, I like standing on the anthill.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Ida Aurlien
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#86 - 2015-08-13 22:22:13 UTC
well i'm not a fan of entoss links.. and this to me sounds like a major mess.. I hope this takes u years to do but probably not.. no time to really play game as allways running to put out fires.. gives u no time to play the game just b a fireman.. other games let u play without having to babysit 24/7
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#87 - 2015-08-13 22:24:47 UTC
Ida Aurlien wrote:
well i'm not a fan of entoss links.. and this to me sounds like a major mess.. I hope this takes u years to do but probably not.. no time to really play game as allways running to put out fires.. gives u no time to play the game just b a fireman.. other games let u play without having to babysit 24/7

Curious, name other games where you can actually lose structures which you don't have to babysit 24/7.
Most of the ones I know don't even have timers and invuln periods.
Ida Aurlien
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#88 - 2015-08-13 22:28:51 UTC
visually look at the alliances u've lost since introducing the entossis link u are losing a lot .... I figure when all said and done u will have just a few alliances left.. and this should speed that up some . Is that your true intent ?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#89 - 2015-08-13 22:45:15 UTC
Please clarify the methods by which a potential aggressor can actually find out concrete information on the vulnerability periods of a desired target structure.

Because it very much looks like, unless I get a guy inside their corp, that I would have to Entosis the thing once an hour all day long until I get a hit. And that's after wardeccing them in the first place. And since an Entosis will take 1 hour per cycle in highsec, that would suggest that I would have to be there literally all day, every day until I get a hit on their vulnerability timer(of which, the percentage of hours in a week that they have to commit to is hilariously low). And that's just for the first of three timers.

So hopefully I'm wrong, because that sounds like a really unreasonable pain in the ass just to clean up some squatter off of a random moon in highsec.

Oh, and please elaborate on what happens should a corp be dissolved with an active citadel.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#90 - 2015-08-13 23:57:22 UTC
In terms of the vulnerability windows, you have null sec split into two categories:
Null Sec with Full Occupancy and Null Sec without occupancy.

Where does NPC Null Sec fall into this?

My natural assumption is with "Null Sec with full occupancy" since you also have Low Sec there as well (neither can be claimed by players).

But I hate making assumptions so clarification would be great: will I have 3 hours of vulnerability or 12 for a Medium Citadel in NPC Controlled Null Sec?

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#91 - 2015-08-14 00:14:32 UTC
I think it is a little bizarre that the bigger the structure the more vulnerable it is in absolute terms (width of gaping timer vaginer).

Like...what's the literal point of L and XL in NPC null and wormholes beyond playing docking games with dreads? There's no extra utility with guns if you aren't there to defend the structure from the troll ceptor. We all know how much fun docking games with dreads are.

I also like the idea of being podded and losing your ship if the house burns down around you. That's awesome for people who go on holiday for a week. Like, you know, anyone at all in the history of mankind with a real life.

I really think that this entosis gameplay, which is at it's most basic an attention based warfare mechanism, is uttery daft. The greatest problem EVE has is that it takes so much effort to do anything. Sure, you've addressed that the past couple of years worth of bloody Xmas gifts with the Victorieuex Luxury ****, the Leopard and the Concord shuttle. All great ways of getting about the vaast, ever more empty spaces of EVE faster.

But then of course you introduced Space AIDS in Phoebe, etc, and it's harder to get around EVE. now you've got trollceptors fighting an attention war in nullsec, where it matters. You clearly didn't learn a damn thing from the plex contestations in Faction Warfare, where everyone burned out. So now you're forcing attention based occupancy on wormholers and citadel owners, who have to be around for 50% of the time to defend their crap or they lose it in 30 minutes.

This isn't sustainable. You have to consider this in terms of whatmotivates your players to actually play the game, invest hours, days, weeks, months and years and money into playing. Attention games are incompatible with any mature gamer's lifestyle.

I, also, would hope you can rotate the Citadel on it's X axis so you can point the undock at convenient celestials for instas. Or at inconvenient locations to ensure you undock away from all celestials and prevent foes getting conventient warps to your undock.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Maetel Lithium
Undead Dragons
#92 - 2015-08-14 00:21:35 UTC
So... While I like the idea of how this system works, I think the 1st stage reinforcement timer is just too easy on the owning player. just the inability to change fitting doesn't seem like a serious penalty.

My thought is that, if a Med Citadel in a WH only needs to be Entosised for 30 min to go into stage one. This allows you to skip the next half of your vulnerability hours so you come out of Vulnerability after that. At which point it only takes 10 min for the defender to entosis the station, bringing it back to normal and resetting the process.

I see this as being very exploitable. I can see myself using a neutral alt to Entosis my own citadel to put it into stage one defense, and then flipping it back when it comes out of reinforced mode. I'd have an effectively untouchable station, that can't change it's fitting, but otherwise can only be effected 30 min when I put it under, and 10 min when I'm putting it back.
Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2015-08-14 00:31:11 UTC
Jesus christ, could these mechanics be even more complicated?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#94 - 2015-08-14 00:38:15 UTC
Lyron-Baktos wrote:
Jesus christ, could these mechanics be even more complicated?


CCP: "Starbase mechanics now require completion of algebra problems that will be generated in random languages by the server. In an unrelated matter, we are looking into the cause of widespread TiDi across most of Tranqulity."

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#95 - 2015-08-14 00:45:32 UTC
xttz wrote:
The decision to only affect new structures via Entosis is both a mistake and a missed opportunity; a kneejerk reaction to the bogeyman of structure grinding.

Spot on. I think a better way would be to blend entosis and structure grind systems, perhaps reducing the hitpoints a structure has by 75% after it's been entosisified, leaving it more vulnerable to a reasonable amount of bashing from capitals etc.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#96 - 2015-08-14 01:03:29 UTC
I never thought I'd already be missing the existing POS system...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#97 - 2015-08-14 01:07:05 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I never thought I'd already be missing the existing POS system...


Oh, don't even. Whatever else might be wrong with these, they are at least more mechanically sound than the nightmarish POS systems, especially regarding setting them up.

If they can fix some of the... frankly baffling portions of this, and make roles and such not a headache, they will be head and shoulders above the POS system. Seriously, POSes are one of the worst mechanics in modern gaming.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Ahaz Darkfall
Division One Trade and Aquisition
#98 - 2015-08-14 01:22:02 UTC
It would be cool if there was some sort of signature cloak module for these new structures that would would hide them for a basic scan. i.e. they would need to be probed before warping to them.

It would really add a level of espionage and secrecy to the game. You could set up a secret base in enemy territory, set up a spy network of hidden structures, You would have to actually patrol, and probe your systems regularly to ensure security, or and extra level of security for the paranoid industrialist that prefers hiding to fighting.

To keep it from being a main stream fit, you could have it require several modules to function. say a high, medium, and low slot module, all three are needed for the signature cloak to function.

This would not make the structure invisible, only hide it's signature from scanners, requiring probes for uninvited guests to find it.

high slot - some sort of signature mask/reduction projector

medium slot - computer to control the projector

low slot - power supply to run the projector

Just a thought, but it would solve the issue of weather or not they should be warp-able without probes. Make it an option, by installing these modules you gain the advantage of being hidden from anyone without probes, at the cost of not 1 but 3 module slots. I believe a cost of three fitting slots would would be enough discourage it for being a must have option.

Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#99 - 2015-08-14 01:53:53 UTC
gascanu wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Capitals are in the game and a lot of people spent a lot of time training for them. Throwing away the majority of what we use them for in Aegis without announcing how you're going to redefine their roles has left a lot of us very frustrated and jaded, especially considering it's been less than a year since Phoebe. And now you're lining up for yet another release, taking away the POS bash, which is most of what their utility is now. And still no details on how you plan to rebalance them and redefine their utility.

You're alienating many of your most loyal subscribers.


but, but ,you can use your capitals to shoot enemy capitals... in case they show up; this ofc after spending a week moving your caps into position Blink

If the only use for caps is to kill other caps, there's no incentive to move them anywhere or field them first.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#100 - 2015-08-14 02:03:02 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:

If the only use for caps is to kill other caps, there's no incentive to move them anywhere or field them first.

Caps are also very good at both killing & supporting battleships.
Which are in theory very good at killing battlecruisers.
Who 'should' be good at killing cruisers.

The BC's killing Cruisers is the point where the meta breaks down badly atm and why CCP have mentioned an upcoming BC/BS buff, which once BC & BS get used to escalate vs Cruisers, then naturally causes caps to become part of the escalation cycle around fighting for control of a grid of a citadel.