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Dev blog: Citadels, sieges and you

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Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#21 - 2015-08-13 16:25:22 UTC
Why are wormholes getting reduced vulnerability windows compared to unbonused 0.0?

Reminder that NPC 0.0 in particular cannot reduce this window by their activities. Is it your intention that living in a C6 wormhole is safer than living in Syndicate or The Great Wildlands?

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CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#22 - 2015-08-13 16:31:50 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Why are wormholes getting reduced vulnerability windows compared to unbonused 0.0?

Reminder that NPC 0.0 in particular cannot reduce this window by their activities. Is it your intention that living in a C6 wormhole is safer than living in Syndicate or The Great Wildlands?


This is going to depend if stuff located inside wormhole structures are forever lost or taken care with asset safety. There is a discussion to be had on this particular point, since a lot of the wormhole guys want to go hardcore and lose all of their stuff.
Kahawa Oban
New Groton Industrial Works
#23 - 2015-08-13 16:46:34 UTC
What are the reinforcement window time lengths (specifically how many vulnerability hours for the size and location of the structure)? In the examples several times were mentioned but specific numbers for the number of vulnerability hours were not listed. The blog mentions it is based on size and location but I did not see them listed in a table format.

Is this TBD or did I miss this?

BTW, very much looking forward to the new system. It looks like a lot of work has gone into this.

Thanks, :D
Black Pedro
Mine.
#24 - 2015-08-13 16:48:30 UTC
Just to be clear. In highsec, if I want to remove say a M Citidel from a rival I will need to declare war for at least three weeks? Say they set their vulnerability window for all three hours on Saturday morning. I would declare war the Friday morning to wait for the war to go live, and then would have to renew the war two more times before I could finally destroy it as each vulnerability window lasts a week?

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Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2015-08-13 17:01:47 UTC
xttz wrote:
The decision to only affect new structures via Entosis is both a mistake and a missed opportunity; a kneejerk reaction to the bogeyman of structure grinding.

While the majority of us have a healthy distaste for structure shooting, it does still have a place in the game and shouldn't be dismissed entirely. We have entire classes of ships based around delivering and repairing high quantities of damage and this is an aspect of the game that should remain, albeit in a less central role.
Dreadnoughts have always been really well balanced in this regard, with siege mode forcing them commit to an attack for a minimum period of time. Triage carriers patching up starbases have a similarly mirrored role, frantically trying to restore these assets while making themselves vulnerable.
This was always a fantastic avenue for content, with opponents setting traps or scrambling to catch unexpected sieges. It would be a real shame to lose this aspect of EVE. It feels like you're scooping a load of sand out of the sandbox.

By all means allow sovereignty mechanics to favour grid control over ability to inflict damage, but actively maintained structures should still require a real investment in firepower to destroy. The simplest approach would be for Entosis Links to have a disabling effect on structures, but actual damage should need to be inflicted in order to destroy them for good, while an investment in repair ability should be required to restore them again.


Fundamentally we need the things you risk to to destroy a structure be balanced with what the structure owner is risking inside.

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LujTic
Green Visstick High
#26 - 2015-08-13 17:02:00 UTC
What happens when 'Scooped by owner'? Where do the docked players and assets go to then?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2015-08-13 17:02:07 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Why are wormholes getting reduced vulnerability windows compared to unbonused 0.0?

Reminder that NPC 0.0 in particular cannot reduce this window by their activities. Is it your intention that living in a C6 wormhole is safer than living in Syndicate or The Great Wildlands?



Because being 4 jumps away in K-space is nothing LIKE being 4 away in J-space?

I actually think it's unreasonably long, given the constraints of J-space.

Routes home can disappear in a heartbeat
Deathcloning home is not an option
Anomalies and income sources are randomly spawned so living out of a single system isn't as viable as k-space.
CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#28 - 2015-08-13 17:03:07 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Just to be clear. In highsec, if I want to remove say a M Citidel from a rival I will need to declare war for at least three weeks? Say they set their vulnerability window for all three hours on Saturday morning. I would declare war the Friday morning to wait for the war to go live, and then would have to renew the war two more times before I could finally destroy it as each vulnerability window lasts a week?


No that was something left out of this blog, but the time between vulnerability windows will be shorter for the smaller structures, and our rough estimates on this would be a week in total from start to finish. This is something we want a lot of feedback on though, exactly how many hours and the times between cycles.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#29 - 2015-08-13 17:03:21 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Why are wormholes getting reduced vulnerability windows compared to unbonused 0.0?

Reminder that NPC 0.0 in particular cannot reduce this window by their activities. Is it your intention that living in a C6 wormhole is safer than living in Syndicate or The Great Wildlands?


This is going to depend if stuff located inside wormhole structures are forever lost or taken care with asset safety. There is a discussion to be had on this particular point, since a lot of the wormhole guys want to go hardcore and lose all of their stuff.


Yeah, no. Can we remove those trolls from the CSM? I am happy to chime in.

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CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#30 - 2015-08-13 17:04:02 UTC
LujTic wrote:
What happens when 'Scooped by owner'? Where do the docked players and assets go to then?


Assets are ejected into the asset safety and players will be floating in space in their pods.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones
Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2015-08-13 17:05:33 UTC
Please reconsider the probing mechanics, especially on the medium Citadel's. It would be really nice if at least the mediums required somebody in system to d-scan and combat probe to even find out if there was a citadel in system. Give the little guys the ability to operate out of hostile space if they can manage to stay under the radar.

.
Mr Grape Drink
Doomheim
#32 - 2015-08-13 17:11:17 UTC
Andre Vauban wrote:
Please reconsider the probing mechanics, especially on the medium Citadel's. It would be really nice if at least the mediums required somebody in system to d-scan and combat probe to even find out if there was a citadel in system. Give the little guys the ability to operate out of hostile space if they can manage to stay under the radar.



Yea, can you imagine some high sec systems with hundreds of these small structures showing up on your scan results @_@
Tialano Utrigas
Running with Dogs
Northern Coalition.
#33 - 2015-08-13 17:13:59 UTC
"Also, there will be no Command Node spawning under this system – CSM feedback showed it was quite counter-intuitive to fit big guns to your massive structure only to have the fight take place somewhere else."

Guess the super blob will be a thing again...,
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#34 - 2015-08-13 17:14:07 UTC
Andre Vauban wrote:
Please reconsider the probing mechanics, especially on the medium Citadel's. It would be really nice if at least the mediums required somebody in system to d-scan and combat probe to even find out if there was a citadel in system. Give the little guys the ability to operate out of hostile space if they can manage to stay under the radar.


This could be the option for a module that makes the structure harder to probe and hides it from d-scan; but also requires fuel to remain active.
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#35 - 2015-08-13 17:19:56 UTC
Andre Vauban wrote:
Please reconsider the probing mechanics, especially on the medium Citadel's. It would be really nice if at least the mediums required somebody in system to d-scan and combat probe to even find out if there was a citadel in system. Give the little guys the ability to operate out of hostile space if they can manage to stay under the radar.


I agree with this, A small group should be able to make the other guy do some work to find them. It'll help a great deal with smaller entities if they can get a baseline for operational security.
Mr Grape Drink
Doomheim
#36 - 2015-08-13 17:22:40 UTC
Why are vulnerability windows bigger for bigger structures? Shouldnt they be harder to take than the smaller versions? As it stands in NPC null an XL would be open 12 hours a day if spread across evenly. If you're a mainly USTZ group and you set it during the week to come out after work hours, you would need to set it to say 5PM - 5AM. Gives people of a different TZ plenty of options to hit you while you're asleep.

Nothing like having massive guns and doomsdays attached to your citadel and your gunner asleep at the wheel!

Considering the XL will cost billions and billions of isk, you should be able to really force all engagements on it into your own primetime.
POS Trader
Merchants of Lore
#37 - 2015-08-13 17:24:19 UTC
Regarding asset safety, just to be sure, currently if my corp hangar array and manufacturing arrays are overflowing with goodies, if someone blows them up, these things drop and they can take them. With new structures, if I have M or L industry structure with same amount of goodies, these all get ejected to asset safety that then can be moved to new structure? Only the "build-in-progress" stuff can drop for attackers?

This is just in normal space, not WH space.

Another question is about POS. Let's say I have 1000 small and 200 medium and 100 large POS in hangar in Jita. When new structures hit, will these stockpiles be converted to new ones? ISK refunded at market value of components via buy orders?
Hendrink Collie
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2015-08-13 17:24:31 UTC
Quick question:

How will jump beacons and cyno beacons work with these new structures. Since ultimately the citadels will be replacing POSes, is the module still going to be floating in space a ways from the citadel, or will it be more along the lines of randomly showing roughly 30km from the undock?

Thanks! Big smile
Aladar Dangerface
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2015-08-13 17:25:44 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Why are wormholes getting reduced vulnerability windows compared to unbonused 0.0?

Reminder that NPC 0.0 in particular cannot reduce this window by their activities. Is it your intention that living in a C6 wormhole is safer than living in Syndicate or The Great Wildlands?


This is going to depend if stuff located inside wormhole structures are forever lost or taken care with asset safety. There is a discussion to be had on this particular point, since a lot of the wormhole guys want to go hardcore and lose all of their stuff.

I don't think its that we want to lose all our stuff, its that we want everything dropped as loot when we lose a citadel but then the same applies when we kill one also, we like loot pinatas and some wouldn't mind risking theirs to get them.

I doubt anyone would want to lose all there stuff for no upside though.

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POS Trader
Merchants of Lore
#40 - 2015-08-13 17:28:21 UTC
Mr Grape Drink wrote:
Why are vulnerability windows bigger for bigger structures? Shouldnt they be harder to take than the smaller versions? As it stands in NPC null an XL would be open 12 hours a day if spread across evenly. If you're a mainly USTZ group and you set it during the week to come out after work hours, you would need to set it to say 5PM - 5AM. Gives people of a different TZ plenty of options to hit you while you're asleep.

Nothing like having massive guns and doomsdays attached to your citadel and your gunner asleep at the wheel!

Considering the XL will cost billions and billions of isk, you should be able to really force all engagements on it into your own primetime.



Let me answer this one for you.

Structure size is apparently linked to who uses it. Its intended audience. XL structures are meant for alliances and M are for very small groups of players. The timers are meant to allow more flexibility for smaller groups to "show up". If you have 100 real people in your XL structure, then getting 25 or 50 to show up should not be that much of a problem during a wider window.