These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Upcoming Feature and Change Feedback Center

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Jump Fatigue Feedback

First post First post First post
Author
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#81 - 2015-08-13 08:03:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Equto wrote:


  1. The small ranges reduce how far you can move but also reduce the amount of fights you can reasonably have


That is the very point of it. You are required to allow opponents in your neighborhood to establish themselves, live and be a content provider to you as you are to them.

The problem that I see, that stems from the pre-Aegis-Sov/pre Phoebe-Jump-mechanics spoiling, is that people still cling to that. People still want to hold vast areas of space just for the sake of it. People also still want these gigantic fights. There was an overwhelming majority of participants from fights like B-R, HED-GP, Asakai, 6VDT, the Revenant promo not-kill in Black Rise and other instances who used the Soul Crushing Tidi meme/slogan after every single of these instances, indicating how they are not happy with this. Yet people still cling to the very same thing.
Another problem I see with opponents in your neighborhood is that it's either "Blue them" or "Prepare for invasion". There is no middleground for EVE players. There is no "We do not like you, but if you stay in Delve and do not bother our sov in Querious we won't bother your sov in Delve. Let's instead have a good time and some roaming fights or drops here and there." or "Let's agree on these and these systems/constellations as a kind of thunderdome to have some sov skirmishes but leave the rest alone and just roam here and there." This seems to be outright impossible from my experience. And I find this ridiculous, in particular as some people yesterday suggested that alliances should join FW and use that combat system as kind of arena to undertake fights. Under the current mechanics, you cannot hold on too much sov if you are not big enough. So why bother with taking over sov from people several regions away or outside your permanent sphere of influence? To screw people over, to have some random crap to do. That's unimaginative and childish.

For the rest, I agree wholeheartedly with Jayne Fillon's remarks in post #2.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Eridon Hermetz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#82 - 2015-08-13 08:04:03 UTC
Eve Explained in short terms :

CCP NERF PROJECTION
Hmm, no.
CCP NERF ZE PROJECTION PLZ !
Nah.
CCP ZE PROJECTION HAS TO BE NERFED §§§§
What.
CCP I AM CANCELLING MY 341 ACCOUNTS IF YOU DONT NERF ZE PROJECTION
Hmm, k. Projection is being nerfed.
CCP YOU'RE NERFING MY JF I DONT LIKE THIS
But, you asked for it right ?
NO I MEAN, NERF ZE EVIL LEGIONS, BUT I STILL WANT MY 100% SAFE LOGI
Or you'll be cancelling your accounts, yeah I got it. Here, we're changing it a bit, now it's borked but I tried.
THANKS CCP I LUV U

WAIT CCP

CCP NERF DOMISOVS
Hmm, no.
CCP NERF ZE GRIND PLZ !
Nah.
CCP ZE GRIND HAS TO BE NERFED §§§§ WE WANT OCCUPANCY INSTEAD
What.
CCP I AM CANCELLING MY 341 ACCOUNTS IF YOU DONT NERF ZE GRIND
Hmm, k. EHP grind is being nerfed.
CCP YOU'RE NERFING MY RATTING GROUND I DONT LIKE THIS
But, you asked for it right ?
NO I MEAN, NERF ZE EVIL LEGIONS, BUT I STILL WANT MY 4-REGIONS BUFFER AND NOT RISKING MY SUPERS AND NOT HAVING TO LIFT A FINGER TO DEFEND IT
Or you'll be cancelling your accounts, yeah I got it. Here, we're changing it a bit, now it's borked but I tried.
THANKS CCP I LUV U

WAIT CCP

Oh, you again. Now what ?
I CANT FIND ANY CONTENT MY CAPS ARE OUT OF RANGE AND WITH FATIGUE AND THEY HAVE NOTHING TO BASH
YOUR IDEAS ARE CRAP, REALLY
YOU ARE RUINING YOUR GAME INSTEAD OF LISTENING TO US
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#83 - 2015-08-13 08:28:55 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi Space Friends,

Thanks for those that attended the Q&A session today, we appreciate those who took the time. We'd like to use this thread as a method of discussing Jump Fatigue ideas.

Some of the interesting suggestions that we'd heard and would like to see player opinions on -
  • Altering jump ranges
  • Altering jump fatigue curves
  • Moving jump fatigue from character based to ship based
  • Alternative FTL systems (Hyperdrive anyone?)
  • Sovereignty effects on Jump Fatigue (e.g. jumping out of/back into capitals reducing jump fatigue)
  • Balance of Jump projection v's Gate projection v's Wormhole projection
  • Jump Fatigue effecting combat effectiveness instead of limiting movement
  • Move-Mode for Capitals for move ops (e.g. Transforming into move mode (24 hour process) reduces combat capacity to near 0)
  • Active methods of reducing jump fatigue (Modules, Skills, Drugs)
  • What does local-content mean to you?


We'd also love to hear your ideas, post away space friends.

Metrics Pron

Perhaps you should spend some time addressing the fact that your "Q&A session" didn't leave people with the feeling that you're actually listening to them.
Amarisen Gream
Pleasant Peninsula Productions
Digital Vendetta
#84 - 2015-08-13 10:04:14 UTC
I tried listening in. . .

But I got tired of hearing the same blabbering not listening from both groups.


1: I have to agree with the CSM member (2nd post) about how JB should have a 90% reduction to fatigue no matter the ship.

2: I live in Provi, so getting to and from High-sec is pretty easy. People who are in deep null are the ones looking for ways to return to NPC space to transport goods to and from are the ones seeking better "local" content. Or the ones who want more NPC access do to the fact that under current game mechanics, high-sec is the best place to market your goods. This issue is CCPs fault for not developing alternative methods sooner in the game. The need super structures will help, but for now, the player mentality is use High-sec for marketing

Looking at point 1. If the JB networks didn't create massive amounts of fatigue, players would have better logistics for moving things around... Even their capital fleets. The would be able to jump to where they friends are for combat content or what ever content they wish...

Maybe for logistical purposes. . .
Sov Capital systems double the jump range of ships (friendly) to and from the capital system, and halve the Fatigue.

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs

Karti Aivo
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#85 - 2015-08-13 10:07:41 UTC
So, obviously the Problem is on multiple levels - but i think it comes most down to a Risk/Reward misbalance and in the end having no reason to want Sov (=having to reason to go to war).

Like right now the incentives i see for taking Sov is:

* Being able to Build Supercapitals
* Rent it out as Alliance Level Income
* Make Money (individual income)

To live in Sov Null you, by design, have to put a lot of stuff and assets at risk.

As stated in the discussion, and "you" from CCP collectively answering with Silence and Confusion, in contrast to that risk you can get better or equal rewards with taking much much lower risk, e.g. with Faction Warfare or Highsec Incursions.

So in short, unless you want to Build Supercapitals (which lack any real purpose right now, but thats another topic but we have to mention this as a fact) theres better options to Make Money with having to take way less Risks.

Additionally, NPC Nullsec, due to where it exists geographically, gives people even another way to dodge the risk of Sov Nullsec while still allowing them gain effective control over huge parts - or even complete Sov Nullsec Regions.


Therefor i propose the Following:

Restructure Gates / Introduce more Smuggler Gates with shifting the Gate connections of every NPC Nullsec Constellation.
NPC Nullsec should really be "more dangerous Lowsec" so it should only exist at the Entry Points of Nullsec Regions and not as Islands in the middle of them, or the whole Region should be NPC Space (and even then they should have direct Empire Borders). An example of how it could look like in PureBlind: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Pure_Blind/YS-GOP,S4GH-I,0A-73B
Then, remove ALL direct Highsec / Nullsec Gate-Connections and add a bunch of new Smuggler Gates to the NPC Constellations, connecting them with more remote Nullsec Regions that geographically lie behind them. Taking Pure Blind as an example again: Have NPC Pure Blind have Smuggler Stargates directly to Fade, Deklein, Branch, Tenal, Venal, Tribute.

Note that PureBlind here is just a sole example and this procedure should then be applied to ALL NPC Nullsec.

Additionally, if you would want to make more incentives for random people to just enter null you could make NPC Nullsec (at least partly) FW-Capable. Lore wise you could choose Pirate Faction that borders to an Empire Faction and than gets "hired" by its opposing faction, if you dont want to have the Pirate Factions as FW entities on their own and than introduce an FW-LP --> Pirate LP Conversion similar to the Concord LP Conversion.

This doesnt really give more incentive to actually take sov, but lowers the viablity of controlling Sov Nullsec from NPC Space, creating crowded chokepoints.

To give Sov Nullsec more Incentive:
* Tie the Moon Harvesting Array to sov.
* Make (at least r32/r64) moons deplete and spawn somewhere random, with some Minerals being EXCLUSIVE in Sov Null (wormhole, after all, got this incentive by being the only place you can farm T3s - and if one Entity Holds all of WHSpace you have to give T3s the Tech-Treatment anyway)
* Remove Fatigue from JBs (this gives an incetive to /attack/ empires aswell as if you take a few system you can effectively create a bridgehead into enemy territory)
* Lower Fatigue Generation in your own Sov
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#86 - 2015-08-13 10:13:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Radical suggestion to allow local production and reduce imports, reducing reliance on JF to supply larger, established groups and foster more local trade with moon goo:

Remove sectoral resource distribution.

Wars for resources are largely useless and not feasible. Instead, all regions should provide all minerals (which is already the case after the last 00 Ore Anom changes) and all moon minerals necessary to build all T2 ships/items and not just ships/items specific to the area. You should be able to build Caldari and Gallente T2 ships in Sansha Null sec without having to import materials from Jita.

*throws flame extinguishers around*

--

related to the before:

Sansha's Stain region cannot be directly connected to Low sec, let alone High sec. That is impossible due to the lore. If, all of a sudden, the ruthless and insane warlord that was driven out of its space and Empire and settled far from Empire borders, had direct connection to said Empire space, it'd ridicule the entire history around Sansha.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Kartoss Askold
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2015-08-13 10:23:42 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:


related to the before:

Sansha's Stain region cannot be directly connected to Low sec, let alone High sec. That is impossible due to the lore. If, all of a sudden, the ruthless and insane warlord that was driven out of its space and Empire and settled far from Empire borders, had direct connection to said Empire space, it'd ridicule the entire history around Sansha.


then put it behind another region of NPC Space, like Tusker Shithole
DaREAL FONZ BONNER
Flawless-Industries
#88 - 2015-08-13 10:30:57 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:


related to the before:

Sansha's Stain region cannot be directly connected to Low sec, let alone High sec. That is impossible due to the lore. If, all of a sudden, the ruthless and insane warlord that was driven out of its space and Empire and settled far from Empire borders, had direct connection to said Empire space, it'd ridicule the entire history around Sansha.


Or maybe the empires got mad at sansha for constantly being in empire with its bloody incursions anway, but hell lets not derail this discuisson with lore ****. CCP owns and makes the Lore, they can make the lore fit the mechanics after all.
Skia Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#89 - 2015-08-13 10:35:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Skia Aumer
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Moving jump fatigue from character based to ship based

While it doesnt happen often, but sometimes I want to take part in a blackops drop after strategic ops (i.e. dread/carrier ride or titan bridge) or vice versa - and it's where fatigue kicks in. I think the idea of ship-based timer is not immediately bad, and you should give it a try. It allows for pony-express, but it's not a big difference from caches of ships that are available now - so should not break everything. You could set an experiment, and implement ship-based fatigue for blackops, while other jumps stay character-based.

CCP Larrikin wrote:
Sovereignty effects on Jump Fatigue (e.g. jumping out of/back into capitals reducing jump fatigue)

Holding sov gives you something useful? God forbid!
Seriously - yes, by all means. Of course dont tie it directly to alliance capital, make some fancy navigation structures.
And un-nerf cyno-jammers. Sov holder should be able to block all capships, no matter if they come via cyno or through gates. I remember ye olde battles for cyno-jammers and they were freaking fun.

CCP Larrikin wrote:
Active methods of reducing jump fatigue (Modules, Skills, Drugs)

Jump range rigs.
This one is not really about fatigue, but rather about Jump Drive Calibration V. Fleetcoms these days are very picky and often say "JDC V or GTFO". Frustrating for newer players.

CCP Larrikin wrote:
What does local-content mean to you?

It means my home region should be valuable enough for me to fight for it, and for my enemy - to invade it.
Looks like mutually exclusive requirements, because if everyone have good home regions, why would they invade anywhere? Yet, there are some options, but I'm not going for them, as it's way off-topic.

CCP Larrikin wrote:
Altering jump ranges

Yes, the Rorqual, geez.
Tolstoyevski Tsuyasa
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#90 - 2015-08-13 11:03:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Tolstoyevski Tsuyasa
Instead of continuing the complaints we have over Jump Fatigue and how "My idea is better than your idea and will clearly fix the problem I see at hand." How about we start looking at ways to fix the various problems of jump fatigue, by addressing the fact that the 'Various' problems to jump fatigue stem from the same singular issue - That jump fatigue as it stands is generated by every single action that qualifies as Jumping beyond taking a stargate.

I'm not going to go into specifics as to what the values that calculate how much jump fatigue is generated should be changed by. instead I offer you, CCP, one idea that will allow you to address the various concerns about how "My play style is ruined by fatigue." that will have a far less effect apon changing it, effecting how someone else's "Play style is now ruined even more by how you tried to fix jump fatigue for the last person."


Divide up the generation of Jump Fatigue/Cooldown into the separate categories of which cause them in the first place, and do not allow those separate means to add apon a global fatigue as we see today;

- Titan Bridges generate "Titan Bridge Fatigue" and "Titan Bridge Cooldown"

- Sovereignty Jump Bridges generate "Jump Bridge Fatigue" and "Jump Bridge Cooldown"

- Jump Drives generate "Jump Drive Fatigue" and "Jump Drive Cooldown"

- Black Ops Bridges generate "Black Ops Bridge Fatigue" and "Black Ops Bridge Cooldown"

- Black Ops Jump Drives generate "Black Ops Jump Fatigue" and "Black Ops Jump Cooldown"

And if this is too many timers to consider at once, perhaps merge Black Ops and Titan Fatigue/Cooldown into one, while maintaining the reduced generation that Black Ops experience when adding fatigue.

This is not meant to be an end-all solution to the current issues of fatigue; rather, this idea of separating the generation of fatigue I believe is merely setting the groundwork to begin building solutions to the various problems people are facing right now; since those specific problems can then be adjusted by adjusting the fatigue/cooldown generation relevant to them without causing another type of fatigue/cooldown generation to be affected.

The fact of the matter is, no singular answer to fatigue currently will suffice for various parties complaining about it's generation, since these various parties find use for jump fatigue in various different ways. It's not just a matter of "My carrier generates too much fatigue" but also one of the fact that the pilot in question is then barred from being able to engage in any other sort of jump related activity, even if it wasn't from his capital ship, due to them wanting to use their capital ship in near future. We understand the need for fatigue was created in part to reduce the capability for super-capital superpowers from crashing every party in the universe from any location, yet the effects of that prevention are now felt amongst every pilot in the universe, and not just the ones you had hoped to cull.

Along with what's mentioned in the previous paragraph, without even changing any values of generation, this change would see an immediate improvement to the quality of life of almost anybody, moreso towards Sovereignty holders of course. That Jump Freighter pilot could actually see themselves switching from freighter to fighter in order to engage in some PVP with his mates sitting on a titan, without having to consider if actually playing the game is going to cut into their responsibilities as an Alliance JF pilot, needing to haul goods in by the days end.

But like I mentioned before, I'm not certain if something like this system suggested could be implemented by CCP; as nice as it would be to have Blops Generation separate from Capitals, have 5 timers per pilot might be difficult to manage on the client.

Your thoughts, CCP?
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#91 - 2015-08-13 11:20:04 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi Space Friends,

Thanks for those that attended the Q&A session today, we appreciate those who took the time. We'd like to use this thread as a method of discussing Jump Fatigue ideas.

Some of the interesting suggestions that we'd heard and would like to see player opinions on -
  • Altering jump ranges
  • Altering jump fatigue curves
  • Moving jump fatigue from character based to ship based
  • Alternative FTL systems (Hyperdrive anyone?)
  • Sovereignty effects on Jump Fatigue (e.g. jumping out of/back into capitals reducing jump fatigue)
  • Balance of Jump projection v's Gate projection v's Wormhole projection
  • Jump Fatigue effecting combat effectiveness instead of limiting movement
  • Move-Mode for Capitals for move ops (e.g. Transforming into move mode (24 hour process) reduces combat capacity to near 0)
  • Active methods of reducing jump fatigue (Modules, Skills, Drugs)
  • What does local-content mean to you?


We'd also love to hear your ideas, post away space friends.

Metrics Pron


1&2: yea; as it is the range is too small for the ppl living in deep nul, or some of the npc 0.0;
when you first introduced "fatigue" the was one very good proposition about keeping the range as it was but applying fatigue depending on the distance jumped, with the fatigue increasing exponentially for every added ly after 5lys;
ex:
you jump 5ly you get "some" amount of fatigue, you choose to jump 7lys you get 2xsome fatigue, you jump 10ly you get 3x or 4x...you get the ideea;
at least with this last proposition ppl will have to make choices, and the jump skills will once again matter, plus will alow moving into deep null without the need to be blue to every sov holder from the empire border to your home;
p.s: give jfs back the range before nerf

3. no; ppl will just buy more ships

4. Question

5. see 1

6. you need to first rebalance caps/supercaps

7. some fatigue is good, but you overdid it, so yea

8. if this is the only way to get my carrier back to 10ly jump range, i agree; also, boost the jf range to prenerf value

9. no

10. local content-= region you live+the space from empire border to your home, mostlly


Anthar Thebess
#92 - 2015-08-13 11:48:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
I never abused capitals, but currently range and the fatigue limits heavily my movement , and operations.
If this is the cost of keeping capital blobs in place i can accept it.

Moving fatigue from pilot to ship is bad - as this can be heavily abused.
You can easily get more ships than active pilots.

Move mode for capitals is interesting , but i think it is better to introduce expensive rigs ( 800 mil rig that consume all calibration ) that will force to use dedicated ship, that will have always its combat capabilities heavily reduced ( without reducing hauling possibilities).

For example , rig that will increase your jump range by 100% , and allowing you to make 2 - 3 fast jumps before reaching 16h timer .
I simply want to have ability to cross 1 region , again from my own yard : http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Thanatos,544/DSS-EZ:T-NNJZ . This is my eve home for last 4 years.

For me 16 timer is optimal as this is 8h sleep + 8h work. + plenty of time for other things, before you start to play.

This 16h timer allow you to do some move your stuff when you start to play , or when you end it and what is most important.
It leave you open for possibles next day.

This game could also use some new gates - they are best balance , as instead affecting all universe they are just affecting specific part of space.


Already posted this in other topic , so simple quote:
Quote:
i hope for more smuggler gates , as this gate connections can solve most of the current mobility issues, provide choke points . They can be easily made non abusable by placing exit gates in station-less NPC systems.

Simple example from my own yard.
Connecting 2 smuggler gate connections can bring few regions back to life.
When you connect Paragon Soul and Stain , and then in the same system create connection to lowsec system you are solving tons of issues that Phoebe created for 'far' regions.

O4T-Z5 <-> LC-1ED<->Tirbam

NPC systems without stations.

Esoteria/Paragon Soul /Period Basis are more exposed to new groups contesting space.
Stain is more open for groups wanting to live in NPC space.
Lets move bit more, and create one more gate connection

3L-Y9M <-> LC-1ED

We are adding the same to Tenerifis , Impass, Omist and Feythabolis

3 smugglers gates that totally change way you live , and can access in 8 regions

The same approach can be used for other areas of null space.



As for the Wormholes.
We have 4 system that have wormhole generation installed.
After last nerf , wormholes are not showing.
When i needed one to bring new guys to nullsec ( almost totally newbie corp) i scanned 2 regions from 10-22.
1 proper wormhole was found, and when i am talking about proper wormholes , i am talking about usable ones , as i found 2 lowsec connections ( bad ones for many reasons) , and around 15 wormholes that where dying from age.

Can we get finally information what this upgrade is doing?
Sorry but just from lore perspective, why we cannot know exactly what thing made by players is doing.

EDIT:
If we could get a npc system as exit point in this sov regions ( just to block the ability to build a station ) this could be perfect solution for tons of issues.
Skia Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#93 - 2015-08-13 12:05:01 UTC
gascanu wrote:
3. no; ppl will just buy more ships

And?

Anthar Thebess wrote:
Moving fatigue from pilot to ship is bad - as this can be heavily abused.
You can easily get more ships than active pilots.

And?

Right now you can do almost the same. Make a cache of ships at the midpoint and use taxi ceptors to get there.
You dont see this happening, for a number of reasons:
1. no-one wants to manage that logistics;
2. you cannot make cache of motherships and titans, and without their backup capital fleet can be quickly reduced to capital scrap heap;
3. capital ships are useless anyway.
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#94 - 2015-08-13 12:06:14 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:


  • What does local-content mean to you?


It means that the travel part of experiencing said content should be somewhere between non-existing and trivial/negligible.
TinkerHell
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#95 - 2015-08-13 12:10:34 UTC
Heres my feedback as CEO of my corporation Nocturnal Romance. Who are a small lowsec corp based on capital warfare, we do not travel around EVE, we pvp within Placid and Syndicate only. We have zero interest in sov.

As a Corporation we are looking for fights with larger ships, we WANT to fight Battleships, capitals and supers. We generally find frigate pvp and cruiser pvp boring. We will do this occasionally but it is not our preferred playstyle. We refused to fly ishtars entirely the entire time they were OP.

- Jump Range Nerf - It has cut our previous hunting grounds into a quarter that it used to be. Resulting in no alliances in immediate range of us with a capital force to be used. Only recently(the last month) has an alliance Snuffbox moved their capitals and supers into the area to fight - This has provided some activity within our corp again because we had stagnated and got bored because of lack of content. Once Snuffbox stop fighting we will fall back into this inactivity. I also do not like the fact that all capitals now have the same jump ranges. Plus allow carriers to jump further than titans again etc please.

- Jump Fatigue Timers - Combined with the jump range nerf, if we wish to gain access to the other 3/4 of our old hunting grounds we need to make at least one jump which gives us an hour timer. The corp is generally active for 2-3 hours a night. This means we can push our fatigue timer up to 16 hours but we cannot sit around and wait out timers while we play as we simply do not have the time. We are a casual corp. This means that at most we can do 5-6 Jumps a night. What does this mean? It means that we will not hotdrop random ships, we will not drop smaller groups to bait for fights either unless we know it is almost guaranteed. Why? Because it simply isnt worth the fatigue if we can only do 5-6 jumps a night. What does this do for? Well we sit around and stagnate, we have less content and overtime we have less activity and less accounts subbed or wanting to play.

- The jump range and the fatigue combined is very harsh, i honestly believe giving back one or the other would help the problem somewhat. If you gave the ships their old ranges back we would be able to pvp more on a nightly basis and have more targets, and we would not need to do the initial jump to get to the other side of the region(or even 7 jumps away) effectively giving us one more jump a night. The Fatigue would still stop people travelling across the galaxy at rapid speeds but it would also stop the small spheres of jump range where alliances have the superior uncontested capital force in the area.

- Sovereignty effects on Jump Fatigue - I see changes to benefit people who own sov as unfair if i am honest. I believe the system is too harsh for everyone involved and it would be totally unjustified to reduce fatigue for the 0.0 players and leave the lowsec people with the current conditions.

- Move-Mode for Capitals for move ops - I do not agree with this. There should not be a need to have a different mode. There are better ways to go about this than just adding more modes for each ship. For example you could give a massive reduction in jump fatigue for jumping back to a cyno you have previously been through. Thus moving ships back and force becomes alot easier and you will also now have a reason to defend your cyno rather than using a disposable t1 frigate. If coupled with a jump range increase (at least for carriers) moving regions would still be a slow process that cannot be done overnight but moving your hanger would also now be a viable option.

- Active methods of reducing jump fatigue (Modules, Skills, Drugs) - Please do not do this! The skill will just become a must have that you are required to have or stay docked, a bit like JDC 5 now, we need less of these skills. Drugs sound a bit weird, sideaffects etc making your fleet inefficient? Once again all the drug skills would likely become must haves, I think jump fatigue the mechanic needs to be address and modified not have bandages and fixes applied to it through other ingame items.

- Moving jump fatigue from character based to ship based - If you do this we will just buy more capitals, this will completely fix our issue of local capital warfare being too restrictive. I am not sure how this will work with larger entities, i can see it would allow groups to cyno across eve to another stash of capitals. I do not see this as a huge issue as it would still limit the ability for super and titans to get around easily as i doubt many people have a stash of these for switching to to save on fatigue.

- What does local-content mean to you? - Local content to NOC is the ability to fight within at least our local region, due to jump fatigue we cannot even begin to reach the other areas of our region. We are a pvp corp, we play this game for pvp, we have no interest in owning structures, sov or anything else. We pvp for the sake of it, if we have a fight and come out isk inefficient we do not care, isk is there for us to generate pvp content nothing more.

- As far as i am concerned jump fatigue was put into this game to limit the ability to move capital and super fleets across eve at rapid speeds. However i feel it has done more than that and limited the ability for alliances that even live in the region next door to fight each other due to fatigue timers and capitals being out of range. It has also made moving ships with capitals or even the capitals themselves to other regions even over the course of a few days to a week painfully boring and tedious. Therefore..




TinkerHell
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#96 - 2015-08-13 12:11:21 UTC  |  Edited by: TinkerHell
My Idea:

- Capitals can no longer take gates
- Jump fatigue, No fatigue timers for jumping around your local region. (You can keep the 5 minute reactivation timer, i like that).
- Jump fatigue is gained for jumping to a different region, once you are in the new region you gain fatigue timer but only a larger reactivation timer than 5 minutes. (Say 10 minutes for reactivation and 1 hour for fatigue) While you have the 1 hour fatigue timer the reactivation timer on jump drives stays at 10 minutes.
- If you jump to another region before the fatigue is up, you fatigue timer reset to 1 hour and your reactivation timer is now 15 minutes.

Edit: - Reactivation timers would not increase for jumping back to a region that has already been included within the timer as long as its the same cyno(allowing people to shuttle their assets when moving homes or corps)

- In conclusion the fatigue timer is therefore never escalating up into days and encouraging people to log off. The reactivation timer is being increased by small amounts, but if you are travelling across eve these because noticable amounts. For example once you have ran across 4 regions you now have a 20 minute timer. This gives the fight you are rushing to the ability to prepare and counter or make a decision whether to stay or not but still allows capitals to provide support and arrive later in the fight!

Apologies for the two posts, i ran out of characters in my original post.

Thanks,

TinkerHell.
h4kun4
Gang Bang Pandas
#97 - 2015-08-13 12:26:36 UTC  |  Edited by: h4kun4
Jump Fatigue sounded like a terrible idea to most of us from the beginning, we arranged and adapted, it's still terrible, but it wasn't actually as terrible as we all thought.

Since eveyone is posting their opinions here, here is mine:

It should be difficult to move your giant cap fleet instead of just beeing boring.
It might surprise some of you guys, but - time consuming and boring =/= difficult

Some suggestions:
Examples for difficulty might be that you cant move as far and you can't carry that much fuel. 5 Light Years range is a joke, combine that with a fuel bay that has enough fuel for lets say 10-15 light years and you can think how difficult it would be to move a 500 man cap fleet around the galaxy.
You would need to have fuel caches everywhere or have Jump Freighters travel with you. So, risk vs. reward, also preparation vs. reward.
A well prepared alliance could do so, rewarding dedication seems fair to me.
People who do not prepare, do not deserve to Win.

The line between disorder and order lies in logistics.’ - Sun Tzu

My ideas would be:
- Remove jump fatigue from carriers and dreadnaughts for everyone, lowsec, NPC-Null, Sov-Holders and their Guests/Renters
- Keep jump fatigue for Black Ops, Jump Freighters, Rorquals and Supercaps everywhere.
- Remove jump fatigue from Jump Bridges your alliance owns and which are not connecting two regions.
- Remove fatigue from BlackOps Bridges and Titan Bridges which start and end within in your own sov space. if one is not within your own sov, you get normal fatigue
- All jumps from one region to another generate normal fatigue. (not gate jumps ofc)
- Black Ops and Titans jump drives still generate fatigue even in your own space.
- Make the fuel bay of carriers and dreads, a lot smaller, so they can travel max 2-3 jumps without refuelling.
- Create a second fuel bay which can only hold strontium
- Keep the reactivation timer, depending on the range you jumped (also for jump bridges of all kinds)

Effects:
- This would lower the duration of Capital fleets travelling around (dreads and carriers) if you are well prepared. But since you have to dock often and need to refuel often, it wouldn't be a "Win button".
- Alliances with scouts and spys would easily see them coming and have time to prepare themselves.
- Less annoying Fozziesov
- Reward preparation and dedication

The point of "no-fatigue-in-your-sov" is basically fozziesov. It is far from fun currently, but if you could use yur Jump Bridges properly and bridge people to the scene, there might be fights happening and trolls are fended off.

Thoric Frosthammer from CSM described it as (no quote): The levers for your TV, Shower, Lights and Climate are down in the Hotel Lobby where evryone can turn them on and off as they like and to keep people from abusing your romms services you have to stand down there and punch away everyone coming.
To stay with the hotel metaphor, with my proposed changes you would still have to do that, but then you wouldn't need to take the stairs, you'd have the express lift to fend off the attackers.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#98 - 2015-08-13 12:26:44 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi Space Friends,

Thanks for those that attended the Q&A session today, we appreciate those who took the time. We'd like to use this thread as a method of discussing Jump Fatigue ideas.

Some of the interesting suggestions that we'd heard and would like to see player opinions on -
  • Altering jump ranges


  • Move-Mode for Capitals for move ops (e.g. Transforming into move mode (24 hour process) reduces combat capacity to near 0)
  • Active methods of reducing jump fatigue (Modules, Skills, Drugs)



We'd also love to hear your ideas, post away space friends.

Metrics Pron


how about a drug that increase your jump range by 100% but reduce all your ship resistances to 0 for 2h or so?
Kai55a
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#99 - 2015-08-13 12:31:37 UTC
Eridon Hermetz wrote:
Eve Explained in short terms :
Oh, you again. Now what ?
I CANT FIND ANY CONTENT MY CAPS ARE OUT OF RANGE AND WITH FATIGUE AND THEY HAVE NOTHING TO BASH
YOUR IDEAS ARE CRAP, REALLY
YOU ARE RUINING YOUR GAME INSTEAD OF LISTENING TO US


Your thoughts are crap. Nobody told CCP: do this and that; do it this way. CCP preferred the worst approach.
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#100 - 2015-08-13 12:39:08 UTC
To all of you who already have forgotten:

there IS another way to import stuff from empire to remote nullsec: use wormholes!

Cost is independent from distance. Deep Space Transports will do fine, ocassionally even regular freighters.
You need more planning, you may need an escort, there might be encounters.

A LOT more fun and a LOT more content than solo jumping action with a zoo of cyno alts.
Already the scanning provides more content and interaction than moving cyno alts (if they ever move).

Works reliably for industry as you will just want to go "somewhere" in empire space and maybe do not need the connection instantly but every other day is fine.

---

About the "local content" and the "more jumps = more fights" argument:
We are not talking about static NPCs. Either you always jump your capitals into fights where you lose them OR the enemy will learn to stay out of your threat range.
More jumps = fewer subcap fights, that's how it works long term.