These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Should the Tengu be nerfed?

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#81 - 2015-08-09 23:53:51 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:


Are you seriously saying you don't see the advantages of a fast neuting boat with longer range than other neuts?


The most common neuting fit boat currently used is the statious, a ship with no bonuses for the weapon system.

When you are solo hunting what is better?

A ship with 25km neuts, cov ops and drones or a ship with over twice as much ehp, nullified, cov ops and cap stable?



The one that can take on the Stratios and survive... the Pilgrim.

The Legion is always inside neut range, and can't turn off the Stratios DPS. It also might have a problem tracking the Strat if it is AB fit because it will be doing circles around your MWD Legion that is webbed with the prop off.


Its not a MWD legion, it wont have an issue tracking it, it has over twice the ehp, it comes with a cap booster it can use if needs be (something the stratios fits don't have) and the stratious all have mwd fitted. They will cap out and die long before the legion does.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#82 - 2015-08-09 23:55:46 UTC
Did, did he just say a Pilgrim beats a Stratios, and try to say that a Legion doesn't? Did I seriously just read that?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#83 - 2015-08-09 23:57:48 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


Akirei Scytale wrote:

With comparable tracking to a rail megathron and low DPS.


Yep, you heard it here folks, med rails track as well as 425s...


Actually you are a moron. At the same range a 425 on a mega does .022 and a 250 on a Tengu does .026

And the Mega far out DPS's the Tengu.

So yeah. What were you saying?


Thank god people actually look at the numbers instead of regurgitating what they've been fed.
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2015-08-09 23:58:05 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Did, did he just say a Pilgrim beats a Stratios, and try to say that a Legion doesn't? Did I seriously just read that?

Too many boosters, I'm sure.
It's okay, the Drop will wear off one day.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#85 - 2015-08-10 00:02:50 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Did, did he just say a Pilgrim beats a Stratios, and try to say that a Legion doesn't? Did I seriously just read that?



I will forgive you guys because you aren't wormholers... but you should see the videos us real pvpers post, the Strat vs Tengu, Strat vs Drake, Strat vs Brutix and vexor...

Then you have the whole, Strat can run away any time it wants because you are slow boating in your Legion fit for Baltecs doom, while shooting at it's toughest resists on an already good buffer hull.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2015-08-10 00:11:01 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Did, did he just say a Pilgrim beats a Stratios, and try to say that a Legion doesn't? Did I seriously just read that?



I will forgive you guys because you aren't wormholers... but you should see the videos us real pvpers post, the Strat vs Tengu, Strat vs Drake, Strat vs Brutix and vexor...

Then you have the whole, Strat can run away any time it wants because you are slow boating in your Legion fit for Baltecs doom, while shooting at it's toughest resists on an already good buffer hull.

Do me a favor, and tell me which C-level of which hole type you're fighting in, so I can do a fair comparison. I am sure we both remember that hilarious Legion setup that used Rapid Lights to play to every single strength of a Wolf-Rayet.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#87 - 2015-08-10 00:13:11 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:


Thank god people actually look at the numbers instead of regurgitating what they've been fed.


If only you weren't picking a fight with someone who has flown a 425 megathron in railgun fleets for years.

I can assure you, the med rails track better.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#88 - 2015-08-10 00:16:35 UTC
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Did, did he just say a Pilgrim beats a Stratios, and try to say that a Legion doesn't? Did I seriously just read that?



I will forgive you guys because you aren't wormholers... but you should see the videos us real pvpers post, the Strat vs Tengu, Strat vs Drake, Strat vs Brutix and vexor...

Then you have the whole, Strat can run away any time it wants because you are slow boating in your Legion fit for Baltecs doom, while shooting at it's toughest resists on an already good buffer hull.

Do me a favor, and tell me which C-level of which hole type you're fighting in, so I can do a fair comparison. I am sure we both remember that hilarious Legion setup that used Rapid Lights to play to every single strength of a Wolf-Rayet.



The Legion needs cap to hold point, web and fire lasers. The Strat just needs to survive. The Legion fires into the resist strength of a Strat. The Strat has a buffer that needs no cap. You have to actively keep the Strat far enough out to track, but close enough to web and scram. The Strat is going to be much faster and agile than you. Both will have roughly the same EHP, only you have no idea what drones he has.

How is it ever a good idea to fight a ship that doesn't rely on cap with a neut ship... If I have to, I am going to use the one that can keep him out of web range all together, the Pilgrim can do that.

But it doesn't matter. The blanket statement was, Legion is always better than a Pilgrim and Zealot. Personally I think both a Pilgrim, Curse and Ashimmu are all better cruisers at neuting than a Legion.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#89 - 2015-08-10 00:16:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Akirei Scytale
baltec1 wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:


Thank god people actually look at the numbers instead of regurgitating what they've been fed.


If only you weren't picking a fight with someone who has flown a 425 megathron in railgun fleets for years.

I can assure you, the med rails track better.


Go plug them in. Compare the fits. The differences between a tracking-bonused ship with mids free for comps that uses large rails and a totally unbonused ship dedicating every mid to its buffer that uses mediums is not as large as you'd think. And I know who you are, I was flying in null, with you, way back in the day. As someone who uses medium rails quite a bit these days, I can tell you, their tracking is utter **** on an unbonused hull.

Also, we both know why rail megas got shelved and railgus are popular nowadays, and it has nothing to do with their EHP. Bombers and warp speed.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#90 - 2015-08-10 00:17:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:


Thank god people actually look at the numbers instead of regurgitating what they've been fed.


If only you weren't picking a fight with someone who has flown a 425 megathron in railgun fleets for years.

I can assure you, the med rails track better.


How does that make any sense? Why would you have flown a 425 rail mega in fleet for years if the Tengu and any Med rail ship was superior? You just anecdotally proved yourself wrong.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2015-08-10 00:21:09 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:


Thank god people actually look at the numbers instead of regurgitating what they've been fed.


If only you weren't picking a fight with someone who has flown a 425 megathron in railgun fleets for years.

I can assure you, the med rails track better.


How does that make any sense? Why would you have flown a 425 rail mega in fleet for years if the Tengu and any Med rail ship was superior? You just anecdotally proved yourself wrong.

You clearly have no idea who you are talking to.
This man has Megathron fits that can run with cruiser fleets.
It's kind of his thing.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#92 - 2015-08-10 00:22:00 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Akirei Scytale wrote:

Also, we both know why rail megas got shelved and railgus are popular nowadays, and it has nothing to do with their EHP. Bombers and warp speed.


Megathron fleet was not vulnerable to bombs and was not retired due to warp speeds. It was retired due to the rise of Ishtar fleets and the combination of their speed and resist profile meaning damage from the megathrons was drastically reduced. You cant get a megathron using 425s to track close to a med railgun, you need to drop to 250s and drop in 2-3 TE.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#93 - 2015-08-10 00:26:14 UTC
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:


Thank god people actually look at the numbers instead of regurgitating what they've been fed.


If only you weren't picking a fight with someone who has flown a 425 megathron in railgun fleets for years.

I can assure you, the med rails track better.


How does that make any sense? Why would you have flown a 425 rail mega in fleet for years if the Tengu and any Med rail ship was superior? You just anecdotally proved yourself wrong.

You clearly have no idea who you are talking to.
This man has Megathron fits that can run with cruiser fleets.
It's kind of his thing.



Again, counter-intuitive to his argument. You are supposed to be arguing against me, not for me.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2015-08-10 00:33:05 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

Again, counter-intuitive to his argument. You are supposed to be arguing against me, not for me.

I am not arguing anything. Merely asking for clarification at some points, and pointing out facts in others.
His obsession with Megathrons has nothing to do with optimization. It just is. It's "his" ship, as it were. Some people just have their thing.
Ribeye had Sabres. Stunt has developed a weird crush on the Stratios. I should really stop obsessing over the Proteus in all of it's variation so much. Baltec has the Megathron.

vOv
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#95 - 2015-08-10 00:33:18 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:


How does that make any sense? Why would you have flown a 425 rail mega in fleet for years if the Tengu and any Med rail ship was superior? You just anecdotally proved yourself wrong.


Because I am in a somewhat unique position of being able to bring a megathron to any fleet I see fit. Its become a cultural thing after years of adapting the hull to do what most think impossible. Yes there a ships that are better for the job but sometimes fun is more important than bringing yet another harpy to harpy fleet.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#96 - 2015-08-10 06:09:35 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Has anyone seen the nullification rig idea before? I can't find any results with google. I think it's a good idea, which would leave T3s as high EHP lesser T2s, if T2 can have nullification too. Might break up the Pete thing, with Eagles possibly happening as a result.

Drawback to the rig is you're down one rig slot. Perhaps less agility. An agility drawback would prevent the uncatchable interceptor issue from being shared with too many ships besides Covert Ops and frigates, and I don't think frigate nullification is a bad thing in terms of combat ability.

No more nullification period, thank you.
We already have too much.

Being down one rig slot isn't even a drawback to speak of when you get something like what you are suggesting.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#97 - 2015-08-10 06:47:18 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

See, T3s can't outdo the t2 cruisers in their speciality


They invalidate most t2 cruisers, most BC, command ships, and rival battleships in tank. That's some 57 ships the invalidate or match in power.


Which T2 cruiser is out powered in it's speciality role by a T3?

Now remember, T2 ships are supposed to be specialised - the best at what they do. We'll rule out HICs, Recons and Logis from even being considered for this because the gap isn't remotely close. Really, it's only the HACs that are in contention. Walk me through this:

Zealot (Laser projection)
Sacrilege (Missiles)
Cerberus (long range missiles)
Eagle (ultra long range hybrid paint scratching)
Ishtar (drones)
Deimos (brawl range facerape DPS)
Vagabond (high speed with cruiser DPS/EHP)
Muninn (Med arty alpha hit and run)


All of them.


So the Proteus outclasses the Ishtar as a drone platform? The Tengu outranges the Cerb? The Loki can go faster than the Vagabond? My word.

I really must update my EFT.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#98 - 2015-08-10 06:52:52 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:

Also, we both know why rail megas got shelved and railgus are popular nowadays, and it has nothing to do with their EHP. Bombers and warp speed.


Megathron fleet was not vulnerable to bombs and was not retired due to warp speeds. It was retired due to the rise of Ishtar fleets and the combination of their speed and resist profile meaning damage from the megathrons was drastically reduced. You cant get a megathron using 425s to track close to a med railgun, you need to drop to 250s and drop in 2-3 TE.


Surely you mean Proteus fleets?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#99 - 2015-08-10 08:25:32 UTC
Malcanis wrote:


So the Proteus outclasses the Ishtar as a drone platform? The Tengu outranges the Cerb? The Loki can go faster than the Vagabond? My word.

I really must update my EFT.


Ishtar is unique in that CCP decided to Captain America it and then inject it with steroids, remove its sentries and its not nearly as scary which is something they should do. CCPs taken one swing with the nerfbat at the tengu and while that helped the anti-frig cerb you wont be seeing heavy cerbs in fleets taking on heavy tengu fleet, they both get the same engagement range and firepower but the tengu gets its battleship tank. While the loki wont match a vaga in speed it will beat it in firepower, utility and tank.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#100 - 2015-08-10 10:57:53 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


So the Proteus outclasses the Ishtar as a drone platform? The Tengu outranges the Cerb? The Loki can go faster than the Vagabond? My word.

I really must update my EFT.


Ishtar is unique in that CCP decided to Captain America it and then inject it with steroids, remove its sentries and its not nearly as scary which is something they should do. CCPs taken one swing with the nerfbat at the tengu and while that helped the anti-frig cerb you wont be seeing heavy cerbs in fleets taking on heavy tengu fleet, they both get the same engagement range and firepower but the tengu gets its battleship tank. While the loki wont match a vaga in speed it will beat it in firepower, utility and tank.


Oh rubbish, a Cerberus fleet will trivially out-range and out-speed Tengus, especially if they have that "battleship tank".

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016