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Should the Tengu be nerfed?

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Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#61 - 2015-08-09 22:12:55 UTC
What if nullification could be had in a rig, would that change opinions regarding T2 vs T3

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#62 - 2015-08-09 22:23:07 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:



But the Tengu and all other T3's are out EWared by Recons. They are in most cases out DPS'd by HACs (or at least can't apply as well). The fits like an AC Loki where they win the DPS battle they lose the tracking and range battle. Their tanks are impressive, but I can get just as good a tank from a Command Ship. And their niche really is PVE and Nullified BSery.


Loki gets used over the huginn for painters, proteus gets used over the arazu for points. T3s get used over command ships because they can get into a camped system and set up thanks to being cloak/nullified.
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

Thats not overpowered. Hacs are great. I would much rather have a zealot than a laser legion, I would much rather have a Vigilant than a Proti unless I am in a WH. I would much rather have an Orthrus than a Tengu.


legion gets the same range, more firepower, more speed and at least twice the ehp.

Market McSelling Alt wrote:


The blanket statement that T3 outdoes all the T2 cruisers is just plain false. Yes a Neut legion is the only way to have tank AND neut... but you sacrifice cost/skills/mobility to get there.


The only t2 ships that are not out classed by t3 is the HIC and that only because t3 can't fit the bubble launcher/infinipoint.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#63 - 2015-08-09 22:42:24 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:


T2 cruisers all tend to have very focused bonuses. Recons for example, or Logis. All much better at those roles than T3s. If you're thinking about HACs, T3s aren't as price-efficient as them.



I'm looking at a legion here with 80k ehp, same neuting power as as a pilgrim, decent firepower, cov cloak, nullified and is cap stable with everything running including the prop mod. So, why would I choose to fly a pilgrim that has less than half the tank, isn't cap stable, same neuting power and 15 more dps from a destructible weapon system?

Akirei Scytale wrote:

BCs? Come on. Comparing T1 to T3 is frankly silly, and again, price is an important balancing point.


Not as important as a ship class above a cruisers being totally invalidated by 4 overpowered cruisers.
Akirei Scytale wrote:

Command ships? All command ships are 50% more effective at boosting than T3s. T3s are a little more flexible with what they boost and can covops cloak, but cannot hope to really bricktank and boost anywhere nearly as effectively as a command ship. And non-boosting command ships are also much scarier in combat.


Yet not single fleet uses them over boosting t3s. Turns out, getting an uncatchable booster into system and into an off grid safe is the best tank of all.

Akirei Scytale wrote:

Battleships in tank? Definitely not Marauders, which are a lower tech level - and really only the Proteus can rival a BS in terms of EHP, and that setup moves pretty much like a battleship too, without access to large guns.


Railgu fleet has the same EHP as most battleship doctrines.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#64 - 2015-08-09 22:46:15 UTC
Henzo Enecha wrote:
Should the Tengu be nerfed?

It's already been nerfed to the point of being at most an Eight-gu, and even at the expense of hurting all other cruisers too.

It might be more appropriate to buff the others, or accept that any hull with 5 bonuses is going to be overpowered.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#65 - 2015-08-09 22:46:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Karade
Akirei Scytale wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Their point is to be adaptable, now overshadow specialised ships in their area of specialty. T1 cruisers are the base model, t2 are more heavily specialised into an area and t3 are supposed to be very adaptable. Right now not only do they invalidate most cruisers but also the ship class above them and rival the ship class above that in many areas too.


I really do think they should remain better than T2 combat ships simply due to their cost - they are not flexible anywhere except the fitting screen. Making them weaker would mean you'd be paying more for an inferior ship that you could refit to another role once you realize how terrible it is, only to discover the same thing.
Which is all well and good (though prices go up as well as down...), however, this is not the stated design intent:


http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/8742/1/Shiptech_1920.jpg

On a par with Navy, lesser than the equivalent T2 in a specialised role.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#66 - 2015-08-09 22:58:29 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

I'm looking at a legion here with 80k ehp, same neuting power as as a pilgrim, decent firepower, cov cloak, nullified and is cap stable with everything running including the prop mod. So, why would I choose to fly a pilgrim that has less than half the tank, isn't cap stable, same neuting power and 15 more dps from a destructible weapon system?




Because a Pilgrim has a larger drone bay, faster align time, faster warp time, has 2x the neut range and can fit tracking disrupts that actually matter.

Are you seriously that dense? You don't think a 2x cheaper non-skill killing hull that has 2x the neut range isn't better?

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#67 - 2015-08-09 23:06:38 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:



Because a Pilgrim has a larger drone bay, faster align time, faster warp time, has 2x the neut range and can fit tracking disrupts that actually matter.

Are you seriously that dense? You don't think a 2x cheaper non-skill killing hull that has 2x the neut range isn't better?


TD don't help much vs anything cruiser sized or that has drones and near everyone rats in an Ishtar so that's irrelevant, 2x range also doesn't mean much given that you mostly want to scram/web your target.

Also as always price means nothing, the pilgrim is more or less pointless as is the zealot as the legion does both jobs better.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#68 - 2015-08-09 23:11:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Market McSelling Alt
baltec1 wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:



Because a Pilgrim has a larger drone bay, faster align time, faster warp time, has 2x the neut range and can fit tracking disrupts that actually matter.

Are you seriously that dense? You don't think a 2x cheaper non-skill killing hull that has 2x the neut range isn't better?


TD don't help much vs anything cruiser sized or that has drones and near everyone rats in an Ishtar so that's irrelevant, 2x range also doesn't mean much given that you mostly want to scram/web your target.

Also as always price means nothing, the pilgrim is more or less pointless as is the zealot as the legion does both jobs better.



Yeah but a nullified Legion that has Lasers and Neuts is never ever going to be able to stay inside Web/Scram range against anything.

And a single tackle can hold your Legion, costing well over 500mil and 4 days of training, as long as it wants because you are just an EHP brick that has no range command.

The Pilgrim is better at hit and run Neuting, period. Now Neut Legions in small gang, yeah sure. Or with logi, great.

But the Pilgrim is still far more agile, cheaper, range commanding and it's weapons still fight even when Ewared to hell and back.

The same reason you don't want to fight a drone boat, is the same reason a drone boat works. The range of the neuts is just icing on the cake.

And a Zealot has its advantages over a Legion too... its 20% faster, it warps faster and it has a bonus to sig bloom. All with far more low slots.

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Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#69 - 2015-08-09 23:11:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Akirei Scytale
baltec1 wrote:

I'm looking at a legion here with 80k ehp, same neuting power as as a pilgrim, decent firepower, cov cloak, nullified and is cap stable with everything running including the prop mod. So, why would I choose to fly a pilgrim that has less than half the tank, isn't cap stable, same neuting power and 15 more dps from a destructible weapon system?


Simple, it doesn't have the range bonuses, costs a whole lot more, has a longer decloak delay, and nets you SP loss on death while being an EWAR boat. It's also probably slower, but I don't know what fit you're looking at.


Quote:
Not as important as a ship class above a cruisers being totally invalidated by 4 overpowered cruisers.


Except they aren't, except in your head.

Quote:
Yet not single fleet uses them over boosting t3s. Turns out, getting an uncatchable booster into system and into an off grid safe is the best tank of all.


Oh FFS, I've seen command ships boosting fleets since before they rebalanced the boosting percents. Maybe in your corner of space and with your particular brand of warfare, but there are definite advantages to a boosting command ship.


Quote:
Railgu fleet has the same EHP as most battleship doctrines.


With comparable tracking to a rail megathron and low DPS.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#70 - 2015-08-09 23:25:15 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:



Yeah but a nullified Legion that has Lasers and Neuts is never ever going to be able to stay inside Web/Scram range against anything.


My triple trimarked mega can stay in range of cruisers it has scrammed and webbed. Christ my iteron V managed to stay in range of scrammed and webbed frigates and that didn't even have a prop mod.

Market McSelling Alt wrote:

And a single tackle can hold your Legion, costing well over 500mil and 4 days of training, as long as it wants because you are just an EHP brick that has no range command.


Which is why you decloak on top of your target. I have flown much more expensive toys into point range, this line of argument holds zero merit.

Market McSelling Alt wrote:

The Pilgrim is better at hit and run Neuting, period. Now Neut Legions in small gang, yeah sure. Or with logi, great.

But the Pilgrim is still far more agile, cheaper, range commanding and it's weapons still fight even when Ewared to hell and back.

The same reason you don't want to fight a drone boat, is the same reason a drone boat works. The range of the neuts is just icing on the cake.


Agility is fine, I work with ships far heavier. Price means nothing. Range isn't an issue, you have a cov ops cloak so you can chose where and when to engage. weapons also mean little and drones have just as many unique drawbacks as advantages. In the end the legion does the same job as the pilgrim only better.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#71 - 2015-08-09 23:29:34 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Which is why you decloak on top of your target. I have flown much more expensive toys into point range, this line of argument holds zero merit.


Are you seriously saying you don't see the advantages of a fast neuting boat with longer range than other neuts?
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#72 - 2015-08-09 23:34:27 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Which is why you decloak on top of your target. I have flown much more expensive toys into point range, this line of argument holds zero merit.


Are you seriously saying you don't see the advantages of a fast neuting boat with longer range than other neuts?



I guess in his corner of the Blue Donut they haven't educated their carebears to fit a neut in the utility high.

It would only take 1 or 2 medium neuts on a Ishtar to give your legion a real bad day, and erase ALL your dps. Also, ECM drones and you are screwed. Oh well.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#73 - 2015-08-09 23:35:33 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:


Simple, it doesn't have the range bonuses, costs a whole lot more, has a longer decloak delay, and nets you SP loss on death while being an EWAR boat. It's also probably slower, but I don't know what fit you're looking at.


Range means squat when you are going for scram/web. Cost means nothing. Decloak delay is a none issue for a lot of ships such as bombers, what makes you think the legion is any different? SP loss is not much of a hindrance, you already lost the ship and you can simply fly something else for the short time you are out. Speed is slightly slower but again, this is a none issue as your target is scrammed/webbed.

Akirei Scytale wrote:

Except they aren't, except in your head.


T3 cruisers beat them in speed, agility, EHP and utility. The tengu is literally better at being a drake than a drake and the same goes for the rest of the BC. Nobody flys them anymore not because they are bad but because t3 do their job so much better.


Akirei Scytale wrote:

Oh FFS, I've seen command ships boosting fleets since before they rebalanced the boosting percents. Maybe in your corner of space and with your particular brand of warfare, but there are definite advantages to a boosting command ship.


Not in null or low sec there isn't. Command ships haven't been the mainstay of boosting ever since the first offgrid, nullified cloaking t3 boosters showed up.


Akirei Scytale wrote:

With comparable tracking to a rail megathron and low DPS.


Yep, you heard it here folks, med rails track as well as 425s...
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#74 - 2015-08-09 23:35:43 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Which is why you decloak on top of your target. I have flown much more expensive toys into point range, this line of argument holds zero merit.


Are you seriously saying you don't see the advantages of a fast neuting boat with longer range than other neuts?



It doesn't matter what he sees or doesn't. He made the blanket statement that all T3 are better than all T2 cruisers.

We just showed him why they aren't and he countered with 4 changes of the goal post to continue his fallacy. There is no tank against that kind of ignorance.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#75 - 2015-08-09 23:38:16 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


Akirei Scytale wrote:

With comparable tracking to a rail megathron and low DPS.


Yep, you heard it here folks, med rails track as well as 425s...


Actually you are a moron. At the same range a 425 on a mega does .022 and a 250 on a Tengu does .026

And the Mega far out DPS's the Tengu.

So yeah. What were you saying?

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#76 - 2015-08-09 23:40:07 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:


Are you seriously saying you don't see the advantages of a fast neuting boat with longer range than other neuts?


The most common neuting fit boat currently used is the statious, a ship with no bonuses for the weapon system.

When you are solo hunting what is better?

A ship with 25km neuts, cov ops and drones or a ship with over twice as much ehp, nullified, cov ops and cap stable?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#77 - 2015-08-09 23:41:37 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:

Actually you are a moron. At the same range a 425 on a mega does .022 and a 250 on a Tengu does .026

And the Mega far out DPS's the Tengu.

So yeah. What were you saying?


Which got retired, megathron fleet or railgus?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#78 - 2015-08-09 23:44:14 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

Which is why you decloak on top of your target. I have flown much more expensive toys into point range, this line of argument holds zero merit.


Are you seriously saying you don't see the advantages of a fast neuting boat with longer range than other neuts?



It doesn't matter what he sees or doesn't. He made the blanket statement that all T3 are better than all T2 cruisers.

We just showed him why they aren't and he countered with 4 changes of the goal post to continue his fallacy. There is no tank against that kind of ignorance.


I changed nothing here.

Legion still does the pilgrim and the zealots job only better. Its not my fault you have no original thoughts outside of copying battleclinics top rated fits. You are even still going on about a blue donut like it was ever a real thing.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#79 - 2015-08-09 23:44:46 UTC
Has anyone seen the nullification rig idea before? I can't find any results with google. I think it's a good idea, which would leave T3s as high EHP lesser T2s, if T2 can have nullification too. Might break up the Pete thing, with Eagles possibly happening as a result.

Drawback to the rig is you're down one rig slot. Perhaps less agility. An agility drawback would prevent the uncatchable interceptor issue from being shared with too many ships besides Covert Ops and frigates, and I don't think frigate nullification is a bad thing in terms of combat ability.

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Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#80 - 2015-08-09 23:44:52 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:


Are you seriously saying you don't see the advantages of a fast neuting boat with longer range than other neuts?


The most common neuting fit boat currently used is the statious, a ship with no bonuses for the weapon system.

When you are solo hunting what is better?

A ship with 25km neuts, cov ops and drones or a ship with over twice as much ehp, nullified, cov ops and cap stable?



The one that can take on the Stratios and survive... the Pilgrim.

The Legion is always inside neut range, and can't turn off the Stratios DPS. It also might have a problem tracking the Strat if it is AB fit because it will be doing circles around your MWD Legion that is webbed with the prop off.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.