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Should the Tengu be nerfed?

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Iain Cariaba
#41 - 2015-08-09 21:05:41 UTC
Seraph Essael wrote:
Leave the Tengu the **** alone...Oops

Anyone else read this in their head using the voice of the "leave brittney alone" kid?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#42 - 2015-08-09 21:06:37 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Seraph Essael wrote:
Leave the Tengu the **** alone...Oops

Anyone else read this in their head using the voice of the "leave brittney alone" kid?


Yep.
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#43 - 2015-08-09 21:09:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Eugene Kerner
Henzo Enecha wrote:
So I heard one day, that Tengus are quite effective in doing stuff. So I went ahead and made myself a few fits in EFT's latest version.

Before I go into any detail of the fits mentioned above, I should say, that a Tengu is capable of facetanking a 10/10 DED Complex with a fit, that has lesser stats.
AND, if you want to do something else with it, just bring a mobile depot with you to refit into other specializations, ex. Covert ops nullified low/null explo, or general traveling.


The fit I used, Is not (too) very expensive, sure it has it's 'pimp' parts, but the price is well under a billion.


The fit has 3780dps tank against Guristas Pirates, with a Pith X-Type Large SB
696dps with a range of 30.4km with Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II's
It moves 633m/s with 10mn T2 Afterburner on
On top of all that, it is cap stable at 40%!
And the full thing costs only 700mil in Jita 4-4!

Note: Omni tank with 300mil invuls (Gistum B) 1946dps tank remaining cap stable is possible, but very expensive.
Other option are Domination Adaptive Invuls, which are only 70mil a piece, yielding 1273 dps tank against omni damage.


Now this all brings the question, why? Why is this kind of thing even possible? Why should this even exist? Can any other Strategic cruiser (or any subcap ship) pull these numbers?

Don't believe me? Look at this, and try it out yourself if you'd like:
EFT Screencapture of the fit with all skills level V


Now ofcourse this is purely on paper, due to my current set of skills I would be able to fly it in around 3 months forward from this date, yet it is unbelievable that it can pull those numbers, even on paper.

Why would you even fly any other ship when you can get a Tengu? Or should this be nerfed, which would possibly create more diversity in usage of ships?

I would like ask CCP, how the f*ck can a cruiser pull a 3,7k dps tank, facetank 10/10 DED sites, and be balanced, or is it balanced after all?

//If this is in the wrong subforum, feel free to move it.


I said it multiple times.
There is no need for a nerf of T3s but they definitly need to be more expensive again.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#44 - 2015-08-09 21:09:43 UTC
Loneball wrote:
Nerf all T3's
Should only be 10% stronger than a T2, with T2 being only 15% stronger than a T1.

Exponential power increases surrounding similar sized hulls = LoL WTZ


They need to be less powerful than t2 cruisers otherwise what's the point in t2 cruisers?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#45 - 2015-08-09 21:10:32 UTC
Eugene Kerner wrote:


I said it multiple times.
There is no need fpr a nerf of T3s but they definitly need to be moar expensive again.


Price is never an obstacle.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#46 - 2015-08-09 21:14:31 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Loneball wrote:
Nerf all T3's
Should only be 10% stronger than a T2, with T2 being only 15% stronger than a T1.

Exponential power increases surrounding similar sized hulls = LoL WTZ


They need to be less powerful than t2 cruisers otherwise what's the point in t2 cruisers?


I dunno, what's the point of T1 cruisers? The tengu does need nerfs IMO, but nerfing all T3s to the point they're worse than T2s would be silly - they'd just become expensive ships that can refit into filling a wide variety of roles badly. No one wants a crappy gankboat that can refit into a crappy booster.
Specia1 K
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#47 - 2015-08-09 21:18:26 UTC
Is a 500k EHP Proti fit still viable?
Hmm...

[Proteus, Tanky]
Proteus Defensive - Augmented Plating
Proteus Electronics - Friction Extension Processor
Proteus Propulsion - Localized Injectors
Proteus Offensive - Drone Synthesis Projector
Proteus Engineering - Power Core Multiplier

4x Heavy Electron Blaster II (Void M)

True Sansha Warp Scrambler
True Sansha Stasis Webifier
Corelum C-Type 10MN Afterburner

Coreli A-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
Centus X-Type Armor EM Hardener
Core X-Type Armor Explosive Hardener
Core X-Type Armor Thermic Hardener
3x Syndicate 1600mm Steel Plates

3x Medium Trimark Armor Pump II

2x Ogre II
2x Hammerhead II
1x Hobgoblin II

With an EG-603 implant, I get 395K EHP.

And it's a pvp fit too...Blink




Champion of the Knights of the General Discussion

Thunderdome
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#48 - 2015-08-09 21:19:37 UTC
If subsystems were locked in place like rigs, would that appease anyone?

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#49 - 2015-08-09 21:21:32 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
If subsystems were locked in place like rigs, would that appease anyone?



The people who build T3 components... everyone else would be pissed.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#50 - 2015-08-09 21:25:52 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Loneball wrote:
Nerf all T3's
Should only be 10% stronger than a T2, with T2 being only 15% stronger than a T1.

Exponential power increases surrounding similar sized hulls = LoL WTZ


They need to be less powerful than t2 cruisers otherwise what's the point in t2 cruisers?


I dunno, what's the point of T1 cruisers? The tengu does need nerfs IMO, but nerfing all T3s to the point they're worse than T2s would be silly - they'd just become expensive ships that can refit into filling a wide variety of roles badly. No one wants a crappy gankboat that can refit into a crappy booster.


Their point is to be adaptable, now overshadow specialised ships in their area of specialty. T1 cruisers are the base model, t2 are more heavily specialised into an area and t3 are supposed to be very adaptable. Right now not only do they invalidate most cruisers but also the ship class above them and rival the ship class above that in many areas too.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#51 - 2015-08-09 21:27:28 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
If subsystems were locked in place like rigs, would that appease anyone?


Frankly I would remove the rig slots.
Erica Dusette
Division 13
#52 - 2015-08-09 21:31:39 UTC
The basis of this thread seems to revolve around PVE. Not something I've really done much of so I can't really relate/agree/disagree personally. But from a PVP perspective I have to say the Tengu is certainly not overpowered. Slippery petes are probably the only OP-ish way to fit/fly one and even those take some serious skill, numbers and good FCing to be used effectively.

It's a brave pilot who cuts their trade in a cloaky Tengu. Just doesn't compare to the others (though still a ton of fun). Nothing nerf-worthy there.

Non-cloaky you have your HAMgus and JAMgus, both great but both also useless against many fleet comps (armor T3 fleet > shield, everytime). Nothing nerf-worthy there.

We have a Tengu shield doctrine in corp and when it's called we still find at least half the fleet choose the budget version (Gilas usually, sometimes cerbs). There's plenty of reasons to choose something other than T3; skill limitations, budget and fighting-environment (likelihood of dying) to name just a few. And a lot of people do.

Sounds like you need tougher rats, either that or PVE is Tengu's niche.

Nothing wrong with that.

Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!

Part-Time Wormhole Pirate ツ Full-Time Supermodel

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Specia1 K
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#53 - 2015-08-09 21:32:04 UTC
Henzo Enecha wrote:

Can you give me an example of ships that can do that?
Bonus points for other T3 Cruiser fits.


At least do pvp fits please.

Champion of the Knights of the General Discussion

Thunderdome
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#54 - 2015-08-09 21:42:55 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Their point is to be adaptable, now overshadow specialised ships in their area of specialty. T1 cruisers are the base model, t2 are more heavily specialised into an area and t3 are supposed to be very adaptable. Right now not only do they invalidate most cruisers but also the ship class above them and rival the ship class above that in many areas too.


I really do think they should remain better than T2 combat ships simply due to their cost - they are not flexible anywhere except the fitting screen. Making them weaker would mean you'd be paying more for an inferior ship that you could refit to another role once you realize how terrible it is, only to discover the same thing.
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#55 - 2015-08-09 21:47:09 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Loneball wrote:
Nerf all T3's
Should only be 10% stronger than a T2, with T2 being only 15% stronger than a T1.

Exponential power increases surrounding similar sized hulls = LoL WTZ


They need to be less powerful than t2 cruisers otherwise what's the point in t2 cruisers?


I dunno, what's the point of T1 cruisers? The tengu does need nerfs IMO, but nerfing all T3s to the point they're worse than T2s would be silly - they'd just become expensive ships that can refit into filling a wide variety of roles badly. No one wants a crappy gankboat that can refit into a crappy booster.


Their point is to be adaptable, now overshadow specialised ships in their area of specialty. T1 cruisers are the base model, t2 are more heavily specialised into an area and t3 are supposed to be very adaptable. Right now not only do they invalidate most cruisers but also the ship class above them and rival the ship class above that in many areas too.



But the Tengu and all other T3's are out EWared by Recons. They are in most cases out DPS'd by HACs (or at least can't apply as well). The fits like an AC Loki where they win the DPS battle they lose the tracking and range battle. Their tanks are impressive, but I can get just as good a tank from a Command Ship. And their niche really is PVE and Nullified BSery.

Thats not overpowered. Hacs are great. I would much rather have a zealot than a laser legion, I would much rather have a Vigilant than a Proti unless I am in a WH. I would much rather have an Orthrus than a Tengu.

The blanket statement that T3 outdoes all the T2 cruisers is just plain false. Yes a Neut legion is the only way to have tank AND neut... but you sacrifice cost/skills/mobility to get there.

But this thread is about PVE, and yes the Tengu is the master advanced cruiser hull at PVE. Now... some could and will argue that the Gila is better at PVE, but that is a different discussion.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#56 - 2015-08-09 21:48:14 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

See, T3s can't outdo the t2 cruisers in their speciality


They invalidate most t2 cruisers, most BC, command ships, and rival battleships in tank. That's some 57 ships the invalidate or match in power.


This is so utterly wrong.

T2 cruisers all tend to have very focused bonuses. Recons for example, or Logis. All much better at those roles than T3s. If you're thinking about HACs, T3s aren't as price-efficient as them.

BCs? Come on. Comparing T1 to T3 is frankly silly, and again, price is an important balancing point.

Command ships? All command ships are 50% more effective at boosting than T3s. T3s are a little more flexible with what they boost and can covops cloak, but cannot hope to really bricktank and boost anywhere nearly as effectively as a command ship. And non-boosting command ships are also much scarier in combat.

Battleships in tank? Definitely not Marauders, which are a lower tech level - and really only the Proteus can rival a BS in terms of EHP, and that setup moves pretty much like a battleship too, without access to large guns.
Specia1 K
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#57 - 2015-08-09 21:52:51 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Now... some could and will argue that the Gila is better at PVE, but that is a different discussion.


I Win at EvE?
Roll

Champion of the Knights of the General Discussion

Thunderdome
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#58 - 2015-08-09 21:55:49 UTC
Specia1 K wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Now... some could and will argue that the Gila is better at PVE, but that is a different discussion.


I Win at EvE?
Roll



No no, that fit belongs in the thread about the guy crying an NPC agent lied to him... Truly OP if we actually had that much DPS on a Gila Shocked

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2015-08-09 22:00:04 UTC
From a pvp perspective, the only factor keeping me from saying that T3s (especially the Tengu) are completely broken, is the SP loss upon explosion.
Nothing quite like fighting a war of attrition against guys who like using them, and intentionally killing the same pilots night after night.

Now, from the PvE aspect, there's nothing all that special about them, when you factor in all other options.
Even after the recent slot nerfs, there's not much that a Tengu can do, PvE wise, that an Ishtar can't do just as well, except ease of travel. Bonus points for the fact that it doesn't need to use ammo.
The Gila is in a similar position, but not quite as strong as the Ishtar, due to the fact that it uses medium drones instead of larges.
The Rattlesnake does very well, except in areas where it's huge sig can get it killed easily (like various 10/10s).
As a nod to another notable T3, the Proteus can do, quite literally, every single thing that the Tengu can.
Specia1 K
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#60 - 2015-08-09 22:01:42 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Specia1 K wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
Now... some could and will argue that the Gila is better at PVE, but that is a different discussion.


I Win at EvE?
Roll



No no, that fit belongs in the thread about the guy crying an NPC agent lied to him... Truly OP if we actually had that much DPS on a Gila Shocked


Oh noes I been lied to.Cry

Champion of the Knights of the General Discussion

Thunderdome