Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Victimizing PvE ships? Mike...you are a comedy gold mine...a completely unintentional one. Yes, those poor PvE ships racking in billions of ISK a month. Putting about a trillion ISK a month into the game economy....poor little tykes.

Actually a miner with good skills can do fair a bit of DPS...and that is way, way more than a ship with its cloak activated can do.

This is old, but still...shows you are just simply wrong Mike.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndWUlntJ58U

And, IIRC, that was before the big buff to exhumer tanks.

If too much ISK is coming into the economy (and IMO I think it is which is why PLEX prices are so damn high) then that is a problem. And trying to increase sinks is great in theory, but the better solution is to attack the problem directly....decrease money creation.

And ISK leaves the game in a number of ways, purchasing insurance (although on net insurance is a source, not a sink). BPOs is another sink, in fact the largest. Another sink is LP, since you have to spend ISK to get the various items from the LP store. Then there are taxes, brokers fees, etc.

No, not PvE, ships. PvE or PvP. That is what drives the economy in the game.

Mike Voidstar:
I think your interpretation of that statement from Fozzie is too negative. Simply removing local would be extremly stupid, and the last patches (especially the reasons that came with each change) showed that ccp usually is aware of most consequences, so I really doubt they will do that.

They are aware of the fact that right now, holding sov is barely worth the effort from an economical point of view. They just greatly buffed the pirate detection array for example. SoV null is already at a point where some null players prefer to make their isk in high-sec, simply because its more efficient compared to the risk in null.
I really doubt they want to nerf it now. And simply removing local without adequate compensation would be an extreme nerf. It would nerf 0.0 to the point, where ratting in 0.0 is simply not worth the risk.

He mentioned wormholes without specifying that he only talked about local, and indeed there are a lot of reasons why cloakies are not that much of a problem in whs:

1. A single cloaky cannot throw supers, blops, bombers and stuff around
2. It is not possible to simply check dotlan for a region with a high delta and travel there at will
3. The rewards per site are much higher to compensate for the risk
4. The sites are usually done in groups (and worth the effort to form a group), so you can actually fight back and place scouts
5. the attacker cant just bring an arbitrary number of ships in
6. If you dont know hes there, he cant scare you

The psychological effect of cloakies in wh is not only lower beause you do not necessarily see them. Thats just one of many reasons. But also because they pose a much much lower threat, AND because you are rewarded by higher payout for the increased risk that you take.

I really do not think that Fozzie is stupid. He knows this stuff. I cant see any plan to greatly nerf 0.0 right now.
If there is a significant nerf to local in 0.0, there needs to be a significant buff for pve pilots to compensate for that, otherwise 0.0 will just die.

In my personal opinion, I would like to see a change that increases the risk for pvp engagement in 0.0 for pve players, but at the same time increases the rewards, and most important, the chance to actually fight back to a point where the risk/reward is about at the same level as now. I would love to build my pve fits not only for maximum ticks, but also with attackers in mind. But right now there is no point to.

I am not entirely sure why that should be wrong. We are still talking about nullsec here.
Eve is (supposed to be) all about risk vs reward. For near perfect safety there is high-sec. Saying that nullsec should always remain risky without any way to achieve perfect safety seems like a valid design decision to me.
Its just important to balance it against the rewards. Right now the safety against being attacked is needed, because the rewards are not good enough to justify a greater risk, and being engaged means certain death as a pve pilot.




Again I think that you interpret too much into his statement. It is not actually indicated that he wants risk free pvp pilots and maximum vulnerability for pve pilots. As already mentioned, the balance changes in the opposite direction in whs, which he used as a comparison.
In wormholes you are actually at a much lower risk vom cloakies because they lack their most powerful weapon, the cyno. Sadly cloakies are still invulnerable in whs, which still is a stupid desing since no one should get that level of immunity from such a cheap module, but at least they are more balanced in the risk vs reward scale.

in reading this thread, and after having my own thread for sometime, (it was locked last year)
this is the issue.
those opposed to change like to play EVE on easy.
Most suggested changes are to make EVE PVE play on easy
Eve has no easy setting. however all gameplay does not encourage active game play.
active meaning at your computer or very close by- I know guys who log in cloak up, and then leave for work. that type of game play should be condemned and discouraged.
The real issue is Intel, the intel of local is too much, I will not say do away with local, it could be delayed. there are too many other facets of local that need to remain.
however if we remove local then we need better intel gathering possibilities
This should scale with activity and ownership
everything from TCU, IHUB upgrades, Stations, Gates, scanning modules on POS or new structures.
It would be a given and by some sort of Storyline as well that empire space by local governing body would have some sort of traffic control, pod beacons, ship beacons etc.
Think of this real world comparison. you go to any big city, you have stoplights, cameras, police on patrol, people can use social media to keep track of the whereabouts of most anyone who is connected.
In eve you are in a ship that is connected. it is not too far out of realm to believe that your ships computer would track all incoming intel traffic, much as your scan when you jump in a system tells you what is there.
Tie it to the overview and scan section.
So hi sec and part of low sec should still have some of this easy readily available intel.
Change how we receive it. make it proactive and a part of the interface we already use. the auto scanner.
that will make us use and have to interpret the scans. it will also open up a whole new side for eve including smuggling and changing of ID through module use.
Make null reliant on the build up of structures and sov as to the level of Easy intel. the less used and developed a system the less intel available without very active means (IE scanning with probes)
In trade, pilots will be able to active hunt for cloaky.
if you are active in cloak, you will not have an issue keeping yourself safe,
if you are AFK well then you may need to be found.

Now there's a grand idea: a Disguise module that allows a Harbinger to pose as a Hurricane, or a Machariel as an Armageddon on DScan ;-)

utterly off topic on my part - please disregard. But still... Nice idea lad

How come I've lost cloaking ships in PvP?

I mean if a cloak makes me immune to PvP....something is not right then. I demand a full refund!

Oh and as a point of reference, I used a stealth bomber along with others to camp a pipe into Fountain back when Goons invaded and took it from IT Alliance. We were killing PvP fit ships flown by pilots not paying attention to intel.

Why should that type of play be nerfed so Mike, Brokk, et. al. can have a feeling of enhanced security?

Another point of reference: I used a force recon to help clear bubbles off of ****-caged towers in...H-W (IIRC) during IT Alliance's failed attempt to Hellcamp that system.

Again, why should that type of play be nerfed so Mike, Brokk, et. al. can have a feeling of enhanced security?

BTW, I was able to get out of that system because of my cloak and careful piloting. All of the gates were bubbled to Hell and back, with lots of cans and pilots zipping around. But I noticed the far side had fewer bubbles and people on it, so I slow boated around to that side under my cloak, negotiated my way through the bubbles, left a parting comment in local and jumped out.

Nerfing legitimate cloak use to get at the sub-optimal AFK cloaking is, once again, lazy and stupid game design.

Nobody is suggesting that local simply be removed. The plan going forward looks very much like local will be "removed" but then players can "get it back" via the Observatory Array.

And while this might necessitate some sort of increase of rewards of hold sov, I strongly recommend against simply increasing ISK printing. You think PLEX prices are high now...(no really, I'm quite serious).

Techos, you already won. You don't have to keep up the dishonest arguments, you already have the only one that matters: the devs have said that it's important that PvE remains disrupted, and are willing to throw away game balance to keep it that way.

You know that when Cloaks are active you are immune to any and all player disruption of your ship unless you choose an action that breaks the cloak. So yeah, you die in covert ops ships, but not while cloaked, and you are the only one that can cause that cloak to go down. You only die when you choose to put yourself at risk, having made a fully informed choice as to your surroundings and circumstances. More information than available to a guy leaving a station.

Limiting the invulnerability of the cloak would do nothing to any use of it except for afk uses. Regardless of if it can be scanned down or it shuts off occasionally, an active pilot will just move and recloak. Even if it could be scanned down you would still be pretty safe. Like any pilot in dangerous territory you would be aligned and moving. Only the wildest quirks or poorest choices would have someone land on you or you bumping something to break your cloak.

But none of that matters at all. What is important is that PvE in particular operate only in conditions where they are under direct threat, without even the option of securing space in PvP combat for themselves.