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Agent lied to me about burner rat
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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2015-08-06 21:49:19 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
The burner rat does NOT have player-level attributes, end of story.


That doesn't seem to be the case does it.

What do you mean it doesn't seem to be the case? I did read the thread you linked, are you even reading my comments?


Ploing wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

The burner rat does NOT have player-level attributes, end of story.



finally you got it Shocked

I got it all along. I started the thread with that opener. I'm not whining over the rat's power, I'm whining that the info provided to me was blatantly incorrect. Now I've clearly demonstrated that I'm right about this point, but I'm still not sure if any of you are disputing it because your words are difficult to comprehend. First you say I'm wrong, then you post fits that can beat it, all along you seem to be completely missing the point of the thread.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Ploing
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#22 - 2015-08-06 21:55:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Ploing
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

I got it all along. I started the thread with that opener. I'm not whining over the rat's power, I'm whining that the info provided to me was blatantly incorrect. Now I've clearly demonstrated that I'm right about this point, but I'm still not sure if any of you are disputing it because your words are difficult to comprehend. First you say I'm wrong, then you post fits that can beat it, all along you seem to be completely missing the point of the thread.


you where warned ingame and srsly when i try a new mission i take a look around in forums . in the burner thread are many serious fits tested and are not only a joke to troll people. perhaps it has some reasons ?

and well you lost at least 30 mill. should i cover it ?
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2015-08-07 00:05:52 UTC
Ploing wrote:
you where warned ingame and srsly when i try a new mission i take a look around in forums . in the burner thread are many serious fits tested and are not only a joke to troll people. perhaps it has some reasons ?

and well you lost at least 30 mill. should i cover it ?

As I have made abundantly clear in this thread, I was told in-game that the rat would be in a Daredevil. I was not given any indication that the rat would possess superior stats to a player Daredevil. I entered that battle 99% certain that I would come out victorious against that Daredevil--and after playing with it a lot more in EFT I'm more confident than ever that any fight pitting my Hawk against a real Daredevil would have been a complete cakewalk.

That we have to search for player accounts of any mission because we can't trust our NPC agents is itself a major flaw in EVE's PVE experience. It is particularly bad when the agent tells you information about the mission that is directly false. If they can't tell us the facts, at least they could leave some grey area and pretend they aren't sure, but it would have been really easy for CCP to write up text in which they mention that the ship is far more powerful than an actual Daredevil. The agent could have told me it's a new prototype variant of the Daredevil with similar but higher stats, and I'd know what direction to fit toward, but I wouldn't stop at T2 thinking I have the fight in the bag when my ship doesn't have all that much of a margin above crushing an actual Daredevil. It's a simple quality of life improvement, one I feel like I shouldn't even have to ask for. I don't understand why it is so difficult for you to grasp this concept.

And for the last time, I don't care about the loss. I have a billion in the bank FFS.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Paranoid Loyd
#24 - 2015-08-07 00:26:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
It was a daredevil hull right?

He didn't lie, he simply didn't give you all of the information you needed to make the mission easy, is that really what you want?

Is the Damsel really in distress? No she is pixels, and doesn't have emotions. Why aren't you whining about that lie?

I've never been killed in the Duo of Death mission yet the agent refers to them as the duo of death so I should die right? Why aren't you whining about that lie?

Should I go on about the lies the agents tell us? I can probably find a lie in every mission script. Roll

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2015-08-07 01:07:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
It was a daredevil hull right?

He didn't lie, he simply didn't give you all of the information you needed to make the mission easy, is that really what you want?

Is the Damsel really in distress? No she is pixels, and doesn't have emotions. Why aren't you whining about that lie?

I've never been killed in the Duo of Death mission yet the agent refers to them as the duo of death so I should die right? Why aren't you whining about that lie?

Should I go on about the lies the agents tell us? I can probably find a lie in every mission script. Roll

He didn't say a Daredevil hull, he said a Daredevil. He also specified Shadow Serpentis Antimatter, which is insufficient to achieve the DPS it dealt to me with an armor tank which he said it had. Only way for it to have that kind of DPS with Shadow Serpentis Antimatter is with multiple officer mag stabs, and it only has 4 low slots.

The Damsel is in distress, just because she is pixels doesn't mean she doesn't have feelings, and regardless of her feelings (maybe she likes her captor, you never know), distress can be used to describe someone in a tough situation to get out of.

Duo of Death is a title. The agent may allude to the mission being dangerous, but never offers any stern warnings or any other reason to believe it's any more dangerous than others. I still disagree with the title, it is misleading as the mission is perhaps the very easiest of all vs pirate missions, but in the end it's not a lie, it's a title.
Interesting anecdote: I have actually lost a ship in Duo of Death level 3. This wasn't when I was new, rather I'd had significant experience with level 4 missions already. I took a blaster Moa into the mission just to dìck around and they warp scrammed me, then I discovered much to my dismay that they were orbiting just slightly outside of my max range with the lead ammo and iron couldn't break their tank, and on full afterburner I couldn't outrun them. They didn't even web me, Moas are just slow. Then they very slowly tore me apart with weak DPS and I spent over ten minutes wishing I'd either fit a shield booster or a MWD, or brought some iridium ammo. Probably one of my most lousy operations to date.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#26 - 2015-08-07 01:26:14 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
It was a daredevil hull right?

He didn't lie, he simply didn't give you all of the information you needed to make the mission easy, is that really what you want?

Is the Damsel really in distress? No she is pixels, and doesn't have emotions. Why aren't you whining about that lie?

I've never been killed in the Duo of Death mission yet the agent refers to them as the duo of death so I should die right? Why aren't you whining about that lie?

Should I go on about the lies the agents tell us? I can probably find a lie in every mission script. Roll

He didn't say a Daredevil hull, he said a Daredevil. He also specified Shadow Serpentis Antimatter, which is insufficient to achieve the DPS it dealt to me with an armor tank which he said it had. Only way for it to have that kind of DPS with Shadow Serpentis Antimatter is with multiple officer mag stabs, and it only has 4 low slots.

The Damsel is in distress, just because she is pixels doesn't mean she doesn't have feelings, and regardless of her feelings (maybe she likes her captor, you never know), distress can be used to describe someone in a tough situation to get out of.

Duo of Death is a title. The agent may allude to the mission being dangerous, but never offers any stern warnings or any other reason to believe it's any more dangerous than others. I still disagree with the title, it is misleading as the mission is perhaps the very easiest of all vs pirate missions, but in the end it's not a lie, it's a title.
Interesting anecdote: I have actually lost a ship in Duo of Death level 3. This wasn't when I was new, rather I'd had significant experience with level 4 missions already. I took a blaster Moa into the mission just to dìck around and they warp scrammed me, then I discovered much to my dismay that they were orbiting just slightly outside of my max range with the lead ammo and iron couldn't break their tank, and on full afterburner I couldn't outrun them. They didn't even web me, Moas are just slow. Then they very slowly tore me apart with weak DPS and I spent over ten minutes wishing I'd either fit a shield booster or a MWD, or brought some iridium ammo. Probably one of my most lousy operations to date.


I thinks others have told you this before. but that DD does 264 DPS and it orbits at .11 rad

It tracks at .13 rad because he has a tracking comp

He does 40% thermal, 60% kinetic damage and can tank about 150dps

All of that is easily doable on any pvp fit rail DD. The only advantage he has over regular pod pilots is unlimited cap, which all NPCs have.

Have a nice day, play better.

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2015-08-07 01:37:47 UTC
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
I thinks others have told you this before. but that DD does 264 DPS and it orbits at .11 rad

It tracks at .13 rad because he has a tracking comp

He does 40% thermal, 60% kinetic damage and can tank about 150dps

All of that is easily doable on any pvp fit rail DD. The only advantage he has over regular pod pilots is unlimited cap, which all NPCs have.

Have a nice day, play better.

Sorry, but that's simply false data. I broke it down very clearly above. Maybe that's what it once was, but it isn't that now.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#28 - 2015-08-07 02:42:05 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
The burner rat does NOT have player-level attributes, end of story.


Who the **** said it had player-level attributes? Did it say that in the mission briefing? Do you get just as pissed off when NPC Machariels fire missiles at you? How about those 85% web drones?
Market McSelling Alt
Doomheim
#29 - 2015-08-07 03:10:52 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Market McSelling Alt wrote:
I thinks others have told you this before. but that DD does 264 DPS and it orbits at .11 rad

It tracks at .13 rad because he has a tracking comp

He does 40% thermal, 60% kinetic damage and can tank about 150dps

All of that is easily doable on any pvp fit rail DD. The only advantage he has over regular pod pilots is unlimited cap, which all NPCs have.

Have a nice day, play better.

Sorry, but that's simply false data. I broke it down very clearly above. Maybe that's what it once was, but it isn't that now.



It isn't false data, you simply suck at this game.

Literally a thousand times that mission was run, the stats were calculated and updated. There is a group google sheet with the info and a 39 page thread on the subject.

You simply don't know how to run the mission or use fitting tools correctly.

But please, continue to tell everyone here and all of us who actually ran that mission today the same as we always have that we are wrong because, "be darmned you took more damage than was humanly possible from a computer"

Hilarious

CCP Quant: Of all those who logon in Eve, 1.5% do Incursions, 13.8% PVP and 19.2% run Missions while 22.4% mine.

40.7% Join a fleet. The idea that Eve is a PVP game is false, the social fabric is in Missions and Mining.
LanLanLoo
I'm Sexy And I Know It
#30 - 2015-08-07 03:19:22 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Ploing wrote:
accept that they cheated and RTFT that estella posted.

nuff...

I read the thread, what's your point? It's not even a factor because even if CCP Fozzie had come straight out and said that these rats have superior stats to players (which he did not), it doesn't change the fact that the agent lied to me by failing to mention that.


Here, I EFT'd up a sketch that demonstrates just how overpowered the rat is: http://i.imgur.com/TOSlUT1.png

In that screenshot I built the same Hawk I used for the fight, note that the hardener is overheated and nothing else is. That was the status of my ship for the majority of the fight, except that I swapped ammo several times to see if any other types would work better. CN Scourge was the best against armor and therefore the best type to use. My CN Scourge rockets were hitting for something around 50 damage per volley without overheating, that's about 22 DPS, nothing like the 38.8 DPS I would get against the fit I built (124 DPS x 0.313 after kinetic resist). Even with maxed out skirmish links (command pilot has fed navy mindlink) and full high-grade Halo set, the Daredevil still should be taking almost full damage from the rockets with nothing more than my target painter and missile guidance enhancer. I swapped the ammo out for Dread Guristas Antimatter to boost the DPS so I could do with just one officer mag stab, given it was struggling with CPU when I had 2, and there was no armor tank to speak of. With this setup and weapons overheated, my Hawk could still tank it indefinitely, especially considering how much DPS it loses to tracking. I could tank 219 DPS without overheating, and it only gets 227. But that rat had around 300 DPS yet still had a sig radius probably close to 10m or smaller, and given how long it took me to tear down its shields and 15% of its armor, probably several times the HP of that Daredevil I have there.

That hugely boosted Daredevil with extremely expensive implants and a perfect fit would be torn to shreds by my T2 fit Hawk with no implants or boosts, simply because the Hawk is a good ship to use against a Daredevil.

The burner rat does NOT have player-level attributes, end of story.



What the heck is wrong with you.

You fit out the "pirate DD Burner" with a plate? you are using the wrong ammo, he shoots Shadow Serp not guristas. He also was already doing enough damage to your hawk to break your tank anyways at 264, which as it has been stated no less than 3 times in this thread is the DPS of the rat.

You are flying a freaking hawk, why waste the mid slot on a thermal resist? you are base 80 unless you have newb skills. You should also use a pith or gist booster because they are cheaper and better in every way to the T2.

And your dps on your hawk makes baby jebus cry.

You need to run these on sisi for a bit first. obvious bro
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2015-08-07 03:30:37 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
The burner rat does NOT have player-level attributes, end of story.


Who the **** said it had player-level attributes? Did it say that in the mission briefing? Do you get just as pissed off when NPC Machariels fire missiles at you? How about those 85% web drones?
As a matter of fact the agent was pretty specific that the rat was flying an actual Daredevil. None of the agents ever said that those missions have actual Machariels (they sure perform WAY under par compared to Machariels), and I don't even see the relevance in the drone comment since players can do the same.

LanLanLoo wrote:
What the heck is wrong with you.

You fit out the "pirate DD Burner" with a plate? you are using the wrong ammo, he shoots Shadow Serp not guristas. He also was already doing enough damage to your hawk to break your tank anyways at 264, which as it has been stated no less than 3 times in this thread is the DPS of the rat.

You are flying a freaking hawk, why waste the mid slot on a thermal resist? you are base 80 unless you have newb skills. You should also use a pith or gist booster because they are cheaper and better in every way to the T2.

And your dps on your hawk makes baby jebus cry.

You need to run these on sisi for a bit first. obvious bro

I fit it with a plate because I had to increase the tank to get anywhere near the EHP it had, and also it was so low on CPU that I couldn't really fit anything else on it. I explained why I put Guristas in it: Shadow Serpentis quite plainly lacks the DPS necessary to reach the rat's DPS which if it is 264 as people are stating, would not have broken my 269 DPS tank, certainly wouldn't have broken it as easily as the rat did.

I'm not even sure how to respond to your saying that deadspace boosters are cheaper than T2. As for my fit, don't knock what works. I may not have enough EHP/s to survive that rat, but I came pretty darn close with a T2 repper and that's a lot closer than any of the hardener fits I've seen on anyone else. I don't see why you would take issue with my fitting extra defense when it's already clear I came up short.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Fapping Happens
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2015-08-07 03:37:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Fapping Happens
[Daredevil, Possible DD Burner]
Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Shadow Serpentis Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Shadow Serpentis Small Armor Repairer

Shadow Serpentis 1MN Afterburner
Shadow Serpentis Stasis Webifier
Shadow Serpentis Warp Scrambler

Shadow Serpentis 150mm Railgun, Shadow Antimatter Charge S
Shadow Serpentis 150mm Railgun, Shadow Antimatter Charge S
[empty high slot]

Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Small Hybrid Metastasis Adjuster I


This, along with gang links and a couple of 5% implants actually gets you the exact stats (a little faster) that are posted in the relevant thread.

The OP whines too much. The fit used by CCP to combat us is very doable using Serp faction fittings on a Daredevil bought in Jita. I am sorry you had problems with this mission, your damage from your hawk fitting was horrible, you never would have won.

Also you do know you can refuse those missions as much as you want without penalty?

You want to talk about CCP using some bullcrap? How about the Worm burner and it's 50km warp disruptor and never ending MWD
Da Dissector
Doomheim
#33 - 2015-08-07 05:20:31 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Arthur Direction wrote:
Turn on your hardeners...

No seriously the DD burner does 264dps kin/therm... You can have a pith small shield booster with no resist mods and tank that.

[Hawk, Expensive but effective]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Pithi A-Type Small Shield Booster
Pithum A-Type Kinetic Deflection Amplifier
Cap Recharger II
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Rocket Launcher II, Scourge Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Scourge Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Scourge Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Scourge Rage Rocket
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake S

Small Capacitor Control Circuit II
Small Warhead Rigor Catalyst II



Or use this, put everything on him and go make a cup of coffee

Never run this specific burner and never flown a Hawk but wondering if the newly released Guidance computer might not be a better option to the painter. Not quite as high a boost in the sig radius vs explosion radius side of the equation but I have found that with the precision script the explosion velocity increase gives a better overall result.



If you've never flown it then why bother to post your worthless input??
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#34 - 2015-08-08 05:20:59 UTC
if you put Links, HG halos, and an afterburner on the daredevil EFT shows 15 dps from the hawk after resists (up or down a little depending on meta level on the EANM). So I have no doubt about it being able to tank your damage.

ignoring transversal the Enyo I fly vs the burner takes 25 dps vs the "player daredevil" and I'm not sure how much in game, but my tank barely moves. eft seems to say about 200ish dps tanked vs thermal which is the lowest resist on my fit. the Hawk fit you posted has similar tank numbers vs kinetic (lowest resist between kin/therm) and a bit more on therm. not sure what the damage blend is.

but yea on the damage side I'd say the burner daredevil cheats a bit. I feel like since they are NPCs they have to cheat a little otherwise it would be too easy.

I question your death, I would think you would be able to tank it till the server goes down. but I don't question for a second you not being able to kill it.

that said I don't think I've ever tried not webbing the burner daredevil, not sure how well it applies damage then. it seems like the burner dram doesn't apply much dps till you web it. not sure if the burner daredevil behaves similarly?

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2015-08-08 05:55:46 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
if you put Links, HG halos, and an afterburner on the daredevil EFT shows 15 dps from the hawk after resists (up or down a little depending on meta level on the EANM). So I have no doubt about it being able to tank your damage.
Two problems with that figure:
1.) that would reduce the rat's base DPS against me to 31 because it's now moving much too fast to track me and it's lost the tracking computer in order to fit the afterburner.
2.) the rat wasn't moving anywhere near afterburner speed.


Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
but yea on the damage side I'd say the burner daredevil cheats a bit. I feel like since they are NPCs they have to cheat a little otherwise it would be too easy.
I don't have a problem with it cheating as long as my agent actually tells me so.


Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
I question your death, I would think you would be able to tank it till the server goes down. but I don't question for a second you not being able to kill it.
If it actually did 264 DPS, then I could have tanked it until my shield booster broke from overheat damage, but my Hawk didn't last that long. It has clearly had a DPS increase since those numbers were made. If it ever had realistic numbers for a player ship, it certainly doesn't now.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#36 - 2015-08-08 12:47:24 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
if you put Links, HG halos, and an afterburner on the daredevil EFT shows 15 dps from the hawk after resists (up or down a little depending on meta level on the EANM). So I have no doubt about it being able to tank your damage.
Two problems with that figure:
1.) that would reduce the rat's base DPS against me to 31 because it's now moving much too fast to track me and it's lost the tracking computer in order to fit the afterburner.
2.) the rat wasn't moving anywhere near afterburner speed.


Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
but yea on the damage side I'd say the burner daredevil cheats a bit. I feel like since they are NPCs they have to cheat a little otherwise it would be too easy.
I don't have a problem with it cheating as long as my agent actually tells me so.


Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
I question your death, I would think you would be able to tank it till the server goes down. but I don't question for a second you not being able to kill it.
If it actually did 264 DPS, then I could have tanked it until my shield booster broke from overheat damage, but my Hawk didn't last that long. It has clearly had a DPS increase since those numbers were made. If it ever had realistic numbers for a player ship, it certainly doesn't now.


The Daredevil burner overheats a lot so if 85% webbed you looking at 425+ dps.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#37 - 2015-08-08 14:12:18 UTC
This has to be the funniest thread I have ever seen in the Missions and Complexes forum.

Anyway, when I used to run these, the fit that was linked earlier actually works.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2015-08-08 22:32:55 UTC
This is horrible.

Next thing we will complain about is that Bittervet Crewed Abaddons aren't real abaddons and Corpus Oracles don't murder your cap in one click.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#39 - 2015-08-09 04:15:02 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
This has to be the funniest thread I have ever seen in the Missions and Complexes forum.

Anyway, when I used to run these, the fit that was linked earlier actually works.


Well it was his fault for trying to take on the DD solo, LOL.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2015-08-09 05:40:26 UTC
Daniela Doran wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
This has to be the funniest thread I have ever seen in the Missions and Complexes forum.

Anyway, when I used to run these, the fit that was linked earlier actually works.


Well it was his fault for trying to take on the DD solo, LOL.

That makes no sense. Several people are claiming the burner rat has player-like attributes, and some are even quoting specific numbers on it. If these numbers are correct, my fit should have worked. If my fit is known to have worked in the past, it's reasonable for me to assume it'll work. Why would you guys say that I should have done more research before trying the mission, when I had picked a fit that according to research should have worked?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."