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Get rid of Vulnerability Kiting
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Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#21 - 2015-07-22 07:01:11 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I have changed my stance on the issue and I now believe the system is fine as-is. If the defenders can prevent the aggressors from having entosis links running even for a moment outside the vulnerability window, the structure should go invulnerable. If the defenders cannot do this, they have essentially lost the fight anyway.


I would chalk it up to: the defender lost to a superior force as well, but from what I understand is that the Command Nodes then spawn, not based on the initialization of the Entosis link at the end of the Vulnerability window but when, at the leisure of the attacker, they choose to initialize the final link that sets the structure into reinforce. This means that the Command Nodes can be forced to spawn no where near the defenders actual time zone. Thus vulnerability window has been effectively kitted.

This has been tested with great success by my sources.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#22 - 2015-08-08 18:18:10 UTC
Tabyll Altol wrote:
Please explain what you mean with that. And second of all have you tried to fight them ? they should be slower than you because of the mass. You can use ewar on everything subcapital. But that would mean you need to be active and risk something.

-1 for the idea


I could take 6 skilled recon pilots and do this to any CIrcle of two system and force you to get 5 times my number on the field to stop it.

Hell, I'd do it just to stations to grief.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2015-08-08 23:10:11 UTC
Poranius Fisc wrote:
Tabyll Altol wrote:
Please explain what you mean with that. And second of all have you tried to fight them ? they should be slower than you because of the mass. You can use ewar on everything subcapital. But that would mean you need to be active and risk something.

-1 for the idea


I could take 6 skilled recon pilots and do this to any CIrcle of two system and force you to get 5 times my number on the field to stop it.

Hell, I'd do it just to stations to grief.


Waffle. 30 to counter 6 in a single system? Utter horseshit .
Poranius Fisc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#24 - 2015-08-09 21:43:04 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Poranius Fisc wrote:
Tabyll Altol wrote:
Please explain what you mean with that. And second of all have you tried to fight them ? they should be slower than you because of the mass. You can use ewar on everything subcapital. But that would mean you need to be active and risk something.

-1 for the idea


I could take 6 skilled recon pilots and do this to any CIrcle of two system and force you to get 5 times my number on the field to stop it.

Hell, I'd do it just to stations to grief.


Waffle. 30 to counter 6 in a single system? Utter horseshit .


If you can't target the entosis Pilot, how can you stop him?
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#25 - 2015-08-10 20:47:42 UTC
let me get this straight - if the attackers are the only ones entosising - they win and reinforce the system, if the defenders are the only ones entosising, they reinforce the system the other way

the only way for them to kite you is for you to keep playing with them

that said - I think the command nodes should spawn at the beginning of the original holder's vulnerability window (if they don't already?)

I also think that as soon as the vulnerability window finishes, new players should not be able to activate offensive entosis links (though any previously running may continue to do so)

at which point the defender only has to deal with an ever decreasing number of offensive links, and if they can't stop them all, they've lost.

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2015-08-10 20:54:04 UTC
Poranius Fisc wrote:
If you can't target the entosis Pilot, how can you stop him?

Smartbombs, FoF missiles, bombs.

I don't think it'd work to bring in a fleet of recons because you'd be a big fat blingy target and everyone who saw your fleet head over there or has any idea you're in the area will want to bring in 5x as many T1 ships (total ship value lower than your fleet) just to pop your ships, regardless of who holds sovereignty in the place. It would only work if you could somehow amass a large enough fleet to prevent others from stopping you, and at that point it's unfeasible for everyone to be in a recon.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#27 - 2015-08-10 21:42:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tappits
Petrified wrote:
Once the Vulnerability window closes any further entosis cycles should automatically fail.

The presence of this vulnerability "kiting" defeats the purpose of the vulnerability window: to allow groups to actually sleep/work/live life.


Yes lets get rid of one of the best things in sov warfare from the POS ping-pong era

Go away and think about how much space you can realistically actively defend.

If some one is activity attacking you and they still own the grid at the end of the vun timer means they deserve to entosis your stuff.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2015-08-10 22:07:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
I agree that there should be some home team advantages after the vulnerability window ends, if the structure is still vulnerable. I'd say if people vulnerability kite occasionally but the vast majority of attacks happen during the window, the system is working. But if vulnerability kiting is a frequently-used tactic, the home team needs stronger advantages during the rest of the day.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#29 - 2015-08-10 22:47:37 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I agree that there should be some home team advantages after the vulnerability window ends, if the structure is still vulnerable. I'd say if people vulnerability kite occasionally but the vast majority of attacks happen during the window, the system is working. But if vulnerability kiting is a frequently-used tactic, the home team needs stronger advantages during the rest of the day.


I see the initial attack, the initial Entosis attack that is, as the start. The 24 hour delay between the "initial" Entosis attack that succeeds in reinforcing the structure is to allow the defender time to organize if they happen to have been attacked on an off day. Basically, the defenders chance to recover from the attack. The problem with kitting the vulnerability window is that it makes it extremely difficult for the defender to recover if the command nodes spawn outside their play time and they simply cannot be there for real life reasons.

I agree that a superior force should win. But the issue is not fielding a superior force in real life but in a game. The game itself should not be competing with real life.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#30 - 2015-08-10 23:12:32 UTC
Defend your space

I could be 58 minutes into a 60 minute RF cycle and you can take it back to zero and make it invunerable by a 10 min cycle.

If this isn't worth it to you, maybe you should think about having less sov
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#31 - 2015-08-11 02:10:07 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Defend your space

I could be 58 minutes into a 60 minute RF cycle and you can take it back to zero and make it invunerable by a 10 min cycle.

If this isn't worth it to you, maybe you should think about having less sov


Not really what we are talking about. What we are talking about is a neat little trick that moves the spawning of the command nodes into a time zone favorable to the attacker long after the vulnerability window closed.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2015-08-11 02:42:32 UTC
If that's true, it needs to be fixed.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2015-08-11 05:44:31 UTC
Petrified wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Defend your space

I could be 58 minutes into a 60 minute RF cycle and you can take it back to zero and make it invunerable by a 10 min cycle.

If this isn't worth it to you, maybe you should think about having less sov


Not really what we are talking about. What we are talking about is a neat little trick that moves the spawning of the command nodes into a time zone favorable to the attacker long after the vulnerability window closed.


Which can't happen if you defend it.
AskariRising
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#34 - 2015-08-11 11:21:07 UTC
it seem apparent to me that those defending the current situation are most likely abusing it already.

the fact is that the timer does not work as intended if it can be extended. you can not argue this fact. the mechanics should be changed to reflect the intended design.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2015-08-11 11:26:14 UTC
I fail to see how you can make that assertion when the devblogs explicitly called out this feature.

Again, if someone leaves it to the last minute to entosis your **** and you do NOT respond, don't blame the mechanics.

If you do respond, you then entosis your stuff back and voilla, invulnerable until next time.


Start showing up to contest timers, stop ignoring pings and this will not happen.

I mean if nothing else, when there is actually a big fight over something, putting a gun to the attackers heads saying "you must comprehensively win within 3 hours or reset" is ludicrous.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#36 - 2015-08-11 12:47:21 UTC
Petrified wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Defend your space

I could be 58 minutes into a 60 minute RF cycle and you can take it back to zero and make it invunerable by a 10 min cycle.

If this isn't worth it to you, maybe you should think about having less sov


Not really what we are talking about. What we are talking about is a neat little trick that moves the spawning of the command nodes into a time zone favorable to the attacker long after the vulnerability window closed.



Your RF time is 48 hours from the time you set for RF +/- a portion of the vulnerability timer window. So, if you had a 16 hour window your RF timer can be 40-56 hours from the time you set for RF

From that time, command nodes spawn and the continue to spawn for 6 hours if no action is taken

If you take action upon the first one spawning, the next spawn immediately

In order to reduce this time, you need to increase your index (USE YOUR SPACE) and then window collapses entirely

This whole kiting **** is people not understanding the mechanics. It worked on duality, but it doesn't and never has on TQ.

I have personally RF'd tons of **** and even if i RF it 12 hours outside the vulnerability window due to kiting, it always has a RF time of 48 hours +/- the vulnerability window
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#37 - 2015-08-11 16:30:07 UTC
AskariRising wrote:
it seem apparent to me that those defending the current situation are most likely abusing it already.

the fact is that the timer does not work as intended if it can be extended. you can not argue this fact. the mechanics should be changed to reflect the intended design.



The timer being extended was a TOUTED DESIGN FEATURE figuring prominently in the blogs

IT WAS THE DESIGN


Please point me to a system in which you **think** this was abused
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#38 - 2015-08-11 18:50:39 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
AskariRising wrote:
it seem apparent to me that those defending the current situation are most likely abusing it already.

the fact is that the timer does not work as intended if it can be extended. you can not argue this fact. the mechanics should be changed to reflect the intended design.



The timer being extended was a TOUTED DESIGN FEATURE figuring prominently in the blogs

IT WAS THE DESIGN


Please point me to a system in which you **think** this was abused


The timer being extended is one thing.

The fact that the Command nodes can then be kitted to spawn at the polar opposite of the vulnerability window is another.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#39 - 2015-08-11 19:12:04 UTC
Petrified wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
AskariRising wrote:
it seem apparent to me that those defending the current situation are most likely abusing it already.

the fact is that the timer does not work as intended if it can be extended. you can not argue this fact. the mechanics should be changed to reflect the intended design.



The timer being extended was a TOUTED DESIGN FEATURE figuring prominently in the blogs

IT WAS THE DESIGN


Please point me to a system in which you **think** this was abused


The timer being extended is one thing.

The fact that the Command nodes can then be kitted to spawn at the polar opposite of the vulnerability window is another.



PLEASE link a system as i have kited timers all over the place, both during the duality test and TQ and on Duality it acted like you describe, on TQ, I haven't witnessed this
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#40 - 2015-08-11 21:49:21 UTC
Kenneth Feld wrote:
Petrified wrote:
Kenneth Feld wrote:
AskariRising wrote:
it seem apparent to me that those defending the current situation are most likely abusing it already.

the fact is that the timer does not work as intended if it can be extended. you can not argue this fact. the mechanics should be changed to reflect the intended design.



The timer being extended was a TOUTED DESIGN FEATURE figuring prominently in the blogs

IT WAS THE DESIGN


Please point me to a system in which you **think** this was abused


The timer being extended is one thing.

The fact that the Command nodes can then be kitted to spawn at the polar opposite of the vulnerability window is another.



PLEASE link a system as i have kited timers all over the place, both during the duality test and TQ and on Duality it acted like you describe, on TQ, I haven't witnessed this

Let me pose this question to you: when you kited the timers and successfully reinforced past the vulnerability window, did the command nodes spawn during the vulnerability window or after the time you reinforced? And when you kitted, how many hours did you kite past the vulnerability window?

I ask, because my information came from an alliance member I trust. So an error on their part would be... unsettling.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
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