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an open letter to jamyl sarum
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Aeon Amadii
#41 - 2015-08-06 00:53:14 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Aeon Amadii wrote:
Intriguing.

In all the contracts I've taken for the Amarr Empire - mostly with which to accumulate Imperial armaments - I never quite noticed how condescending and arrogant they are. In the one hand they state that slavery is a means of showing the Matari the light, as it were, enlightening them to God almighty. Yet, as we may well know, the best way to convince someone of something swell is to offer it as a gift - a reward, so to speak... rather than to force it upon them and incite rebellion.

I mean, clearly it's worked so well so far, right? What's that they used to say about insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and over again expecting a different result...?


I'm afraid you misunderstand the purpose of slavery in the context of the Amarrian religion. It hasn't anything to do about convincing anyone of anything. Spiritually, it's about breaking down of a person to their very core so that they can be rebuilt and made whole by the grace of God.


My apologies, next time I'll avoid being politically correct and just say it outright: Indoctrination.

Yanno, now that I think about it, I might see about getting my hands on an Amarrian girl or two; break them down to their very core and rebuild them to my liking. No reason they need to go about their entire lives under the pretenses of God, why not explore a bit? Maybe I'll show them the wonders of what being an exotic dancer of Idama is like, or maybe even what Blue Pill can do for the mind.

After all, as long as it's for religious purposes, it's fine, right? What better way than to worship me?

(This character is the Eve version of Aeon Amadi since there is no cross-forum support)

Member of CPM 2
Arrendis
TK Corp
#42 - 2015-08-06 01:03:16 UTC
The very idea of this makes me extremely uncomfortable.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#43 - 2015-08-06 01:11:52 UTC
Aeon Amadii wrote:


My apologies, next time I'll avoid being politically correct and just say it outright: Indoctrination.

Yanno, now that I think about it, I might see about getting my hands on an Amarrian girl or two; break them down to their very core and rebuild them to my liking. No reason they need to go about their entire lives under the pretenses of God, why not explore a bit? Maybe I'll show them the wonders of what being an exotic dancer of Idama is like, or maybe even what Blue Pill can do for the mind.

After all, as long as it's for religious purposes, it's fine, right? What better way than to worship me?

Stooping to their level won't accomplish anything. Be better than them, not their equal.
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#44 - 2015-08-06 01:23:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Simon Louvaki
Aeon Amadii wrote:
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Aeon Amadii wrote:
Intriguing.

In all the contracts I've taken for the Amarr Empire - mostly with which to accumulate Imperial armaments - I never quite noticed how condescending and arrogant they are. In the one hand they state that slavery is a means of showing the Matari the light, as it were, enlightening them to God almighty. Yet, as we may well know, the best way to convince someone of something swell is to offer it as a gift - a reward, so to speak... rather than to force it upon them and incite rebellion.

I mean, clearly it's worked so well so far, right? What's that they used to say about insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and over again expecting a different result...?


I'm afraid you misunderstand the purpose of slavery in the context of the Amarrian religion. It hasn't anything to do about convincing anyone of anything. Spiritually, it's about breaking down of a person to their very core so that they can be rebuilt and made whole by the grace of God.


My apologies, next time I'll avoid being politically correct and just say it outright: Indoctrination.

Yanno, now that I think about it, I might see about getting my hands on an Amarrian girl or two; break them down to their very core and rebuild them to my liking. No reason they need to go about their entire lives under the pretenses of God, why not explore a bit? Maybe I'll show them the wonders of what being an exotic dancer of Idama is like, or maybe even what Blue Pill can do for the mind.

After all, as long as it's for religious purposes, it's fine, right? What better way than to worship me?


While I can generally accept and even enjoy a degree of sarcasm as a form of criticism and critique, I find it a bit droll to make use of it as a way of remaining ignorant of what something is as opposed to taking the time to actually understand it.

Don't mistake my understanding for complacency of the issue; one does not have to accept nor agree with the practice of slavery to understand its purpose in the Amarrian religious construct.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Honorius Vitellius
Exit-Strategy
Unchained Alliance
#45 - 2015-08-07 09:06:10 UTC
The Empire has no intention of condemning the Matari to endless imprisonment in their sin. Likewise, the Empire will not release vast numbers of traitors to God upon the world. These actions would lead to uncounted crimes and vast suffering. More importantly still, such an action would constitute the abandonment of the divine mission entrusted to the Amarr by the Lord.

Many of the comments in this discussion illustrate very well the terrible moral bankruptcy found in the societies of the Gallente and the rebel Matari. The Empire will not surrender its charges to such benighted deviance.
Jili Tonari
Doomheim
#46 - 2015-08-07 13:49:31 UTC
Honorius Vitellius wrote:
The Empire has no intention of condemning the Matari to endless imprisonment in their sin. Likewise, the Empire will not release vast numbers of traitors to God upon the world. These actions would lead to uncounted crimes and vast suffering. More importantly still, such an action would constitute the abandonment of the divine mission entrusted to the Amarr by the Lord.

Many of the comments in this discussion illustrate very well the terrible moral bankruptcy found in the societies of the Gallente and the rebel Matari. The Empire will not surrender its charges to such benighted deviance.



See? Right here is the disconnect.

A Matari, born and raised in the Republic, in Matari culture cannot be "sinners" to your God, because they are outside your religious system. If you say that doesn't matter, then by default, you're saying everyone who ain't Amarr is a sinner and needs to be collard. I think the State would be real interested to hear that.

For a Matari who is inside the Empire, they don't have much of a choice do they? Slavery means no choice. You can't "give yourself" to anything if it's under duress.

And really dude, we can take care of our own. The only untold suffering is gonna be on your end when you have to learn to do for yourself.

What you don't surrender, we take.

No abolition, no peace.

“Where must we go, we who wander this wasteland, in search of our better selves.”
Arrendis
TK Corp
#47 - 2015-08-07 13:51:13 UTC
Honorius Vitellius wrote:
The Empire will not surrender its charges to such benighted deviance.


. . . I'm sorry, Brother Honorius, but I do have to ask: is there some particular form of enlightened deviance that'd be better? Sorry. Really. I am.

... mostly.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#48 - 2015-08-07 15:07:43 UTC
Jili Tonari wrote:
A Matari, born and raised in the Republic, in Matari culture cannot be "sinners" to your God, because they are outside your religious system. If you say that doesn't matter, then by default, you're saying everyone who ain't Amarr is a sinner and needs to be collard. I think the State would be real interested to hear that.


I think that is technically the official doctrinal position of the faith, actually... it's just a question of 'this group has been designated for Reclaiming' versus 'those others have been designated for Reclaiming... eventually'...
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#49 - 2015-08-07 15:13:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Jili Tonari wrote:
See? Right here is the disconnect.

A Matari, born and raised in the Republic, in Matari culture cannot be "sinners" to your God, because they are outside your religious system. If you say that doesn't matter, then by default, you're saying everyone who ain't Amarr is a sinner and needs to be collard. I think the State would be real interested to hear that.


Everyone who isn't of Amarr is a sinner and needs to be Reclaimed. We have never been vague about this.

It is not just 'our' god. There is only one God. No one is outside our religious system, because everyone is one of God's creation.

Arrendis wrote:
I think that is technically the official doctrinal position of the faith, actually... it's just a question of 'this group has been designated for Reclaiming' versus 'those others have been designated for Reclaiming... eventually'...


Rather, some are offered the opportunity to be Reclaimed by word and diplomacy, and others by laser and collar. Which one is offered depends on whether or not the target people are willing to cooperate peacefully with Amarr.
Cain Aloga
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#50 - 2015-08-07 15:56:32 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:

Everyone who isn't of Amarr is a sinner and needs to be Reclaimed. We have never been vague about this.

It is not just 'our' god. There is only one God. No one is outside our religious system, because everyone is one of God's creation.

Rather, some are offered the opportunity to be Reclaimed by word and diplomacy, and others by laser and collar. Which one is offered depends on whether or not the target people are willing to cooperate peacefully with Amarr.



I wonder what your god's position would be when you encounter some one who not only resists your reclamation, but successfully defeats the imperial navy?

While our warriors fight for our people's freedom, we in turn should fight for our people's prosperity.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#51 - 2015-08-07 15:58:02 UTC
To regroup, rebuild, and and develop new technology, strategies, and approaches.
Svetlana Laknaya
Khushakor Clan
#52 - 2015-08-07 16:10:51 UTC
Cain Aloga wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:

Everyone who isn't of Amarr is a sinner and needs to be Reclaimed. We have never been vague about this.

It is not just 'our' god. There is only one God. No one is outside our religious system, because everyone is one of God's creation.

Rather, some are offered the opportunity to be Reclaimed by word and diplomacy, and others by laser and collar. Which one is offered depends on whether or not the target people are willing to cooperate peacefully with Amarr.



I wonder what your god's position would be when you encounter some one who not only resists your reclamation, but successfully defeats the imperial navy?


For what it is worth, we are doing our best to defeat the capsuleer forces of the Empire, so lets wait and see what they say when the Tribal Liberation Force gives us our victory medal.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#53 - 2015-08-07 16:17:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Good luck with that.
Jili Tonari
Doomheim
#54 - 2015-08-07 16:29:41 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Good luck with that.



As you are, I could have been. As I am, you can be.


“Where must we go, we who wander this wasteland, in search of our better selves.”
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#55 - 2015-08-07 19:28:53 UTC
Jili Tonari wrote:

A Matari, born and raised in the Republic, in Matari culture cannot be "sinners" to your God, because they are outside your religious system. If you say that doesn't matter, then by default, you're saying everyone who ain't Amarr is a sinner and needs to be collard. I think the State would be real interested to hear that.


Believe me, we are well aware of this. The honest amongst our allies will openly admit it, when asked - but the alliance between State and Empire is less based on shared values than it is on necessity. See, when your government declared war on the State because of your alliance with the Federation, we really had no choice but to seek a counterbalancing alliance of our own - and the alliance with the Empire has brought in other advantages in trade and joint-research.

Anyone who knows the State well knows that our preferred position is to trade with all and be allied with none. We hate it when our friends drag us into wars and foreign adventures, but so long as the Republic remains a staunch ally of the Federation and the Federation remains bitterly against the idea of there being a Caldari State, we really have no choice.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Aeon Amadii
#56 - 2015-08-08 00:42:57 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Aeon Amadii wrote:
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Aeon Amadii wrote:
Intriguing.

In all the contracts I've taken for the Amarr Empire - mostly with which to accumulate Imperial armaments - I never quite noticed how condescending and arrogant they are. In the one hand they state that slavery is a means of showing the Matari the light, as it were, enlightening them to God almighty. Yet, as we may well know, the best way to convince someone of something swell is to offer it as a gift - a reward, so to speak... rather than to force it upon them and incite rebellion.

I mean, clearly it's worked so well so far, right? What's that they used to say about insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and over again expecting a different result...?


I'm afraid you misunderstand the purpose of slavery in the context of the Amarrian religion. It hasn't anything to do about convincing anyone of anything. Spiritually, it's about breaking down of a person to their very core so that they can be rebuilt and made whole by the grace of God.


My apologies, next time I'll avoid being politically correct and just say it outright: Indoctrination.

Yanno, now that I think about it, I might see about getting my hands on an Amarrian girl or two; break them down to their very core and rebuild them to my liking. No reason they need to go about their entire lives under the pretenses of God, why not explore a bit? Maybe I'll show them the wonders of what being an exotic dancer of Idama is like, or maybe even what Blue Pill can do for the mind.

After all, as long as it's for religious purposes, it's fine, right? What better way than to worship me?


While I can generally accept and even enjoy a degree of sarcasm as a form of criticism and critique, I find it a bit droll to make use of it as a way of remaining ignorant of what something is as opposed to taking the time to actually understand it.

Don't mistake my understanding for complacency of the issue; one does not have to accept nor agree with the practice of slavery to understand its purpose in the Amarrian religious construct.


Oh, I understand it's purpose full and well but the hypocrisy to disagree with the methodology and potential use also bears weight. As quickly as one could enslave another being to practically force a belief system on them through pain and suffering, another could just as easily remove that belief by the same method. Ethical, or moral? Perhaps not, but neither is generations of indentured servitude as means of propagating one's belief.

Two sides of the same coin, really. You can buff and polish one side as much as you like but it's still the same coin on both sides in the end. Sometimes it takes a jarring effect to illustrate that.

(This character is the Eve version of Aeon Amadi since there is no cross-forum support)

Member of CPM 2
Honorius Vitellius
Exit-Strategy
Unchained Alliance
#57 - 2015-08-08 06:43:54 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Honorius Vitellius wrote:
The Empire will not surrender its charges to such benighted deviance.


. . . I'm sorry, Brother Honorius, but I do have to ask: is there some particular form of enlightened deviance that'd be better? Sorry. Really. I am.

... mostly.


Pilot Arrendis,

In my haste, my wording may have lacked clarity. What I mean is that there are types of deviance, or wickedness, that are more heinous than others. I did not want to repeat, even in a quotation, the earlier insinuations that I regarded as particularly vile that were made in this discussion, but they did attract your attention as well. What is remarkable about that individual's reaction was to immediately liken himself to a god and then use that status to fantasise about a particular type of violence that is considered by many to be especially evil.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#58 - 2015-08-08 12:22:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Rodj Blake
Jili Tonari wrote:
Honorius Vitellius wrote:
The Empire has no intention of condemning the Matari to endless imprisonment in their sin. Likewise, the Empire will not release vast numbers of traitors to God upon the world. These actions would lead to uncounted crimes and vast suffering. More importantly still, such an action would constitute the abandonment of the divine mission entrusted to the Amarr by the Lord.

Many of the comments in this discussion illustrate very well the terrible moral bankruptcy found in the societies of the Gallente and the rebel Matari. The Empire will not surrender its charges to such benighted deviance.



See? Right here is the disconnect.

A Matari, born and raised in the Republic, in Matari culture cannot be "sinners" to your God, because they are outside your religious system. If you say that doesn't matter, then by default, you're saying everyone who ain't Amarr is a sinner and needs to be collard. I think the State would be real interested to hear that.



A Minmatar born outside the Empire is still subject to the Laws of God in the same way that a Minmatar born outside the Empire is subject to the Law of Gravity.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Haruchai Khan
Doomheim
#59 - 2015-08-08 12:44:38 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:


A Minmatar born outside the Empire is still subject to the Laws of God in the same that a Minmatar born outside the Empire is subject to the Law of Gravity.




Perhaps. But in the Republic, God requires a warrant.

The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#60 - 2015-08-08 13:07:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
Honorius Vitellius wrote:
Pilot Arrendis,

In my haste, my wording may have lacked clarity. What I mean is that there are types of deviance, or wickedness, that are more heinous than others. I did not want to repeat, even in a quotation, the earlier insinuations that I regarded as particularly vile that were made in this discussion, but they did attract your attention as well. What is remarkable about that individual's reaction was to immediately liken himself to a god and then use that status to fantasise about a particular type of violence that is considered by many to be especially evil.


Very true, Brother Honorius. And I do hope you'll excuse the joke. Crude, off-color, sometimes downright tasteless humor is, I'm afraid, a hallmark of my kind* that, while I do try to rise above it for the most part, even I sometimes indulge in.




* - you know... Goons. GRR. What? You people didn't think I meant Matari, did you? I know Honorius knew what I meant.