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Transport type selection

Author
Darion Maken
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2015-08-05 13:58:46 UTC
I have some questions around the right transport ship for various situations. I start out by apologizing if this has been discussed before. I went back 5 pages of posts and didn’t find anything. So some background. I’m aware of the ‘limits’ on various transports for making it unprofitable for ganking. The rules I follow are:

- No more than 900M in a freighter (and even then I triple bulkhead)
- No more than 300M in a DST (shield tanked)
- I use instawarps (to beyond detection range) and 0 km docking on all stations
- For my DST’s and BR’s I use the cloaking / MWD
- My transporting is high sec based

The question I have is ‘what are other people doing?’ I realize the above is safe but flying freighters is slow and I would like to transition to more DST / BR goods movement. Does anyone know how often DST’s and BR’s are killed in the wild when they do the right things for cloaking? I’m not talking about being sloppy and getting ganked in Jita because you didn’t instawarp or 0km dock. But if you do the ‘right’ things – is it 1 in 10, 1 in 50, 1 in 100? Just curious, I don’t gank and so have no background for understanding the risks.

Darion
Paranoid Loyd
#2 - 2015-08-05 17:29:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
If you are using the MWD Cloak trick and are confident you are doing it properly (I see people doing it wrong all the time) there is no need to limit yourself to 300 Mil, if you are doing it right it would take an act of Bob for you to be caught. Same goes for BRs, if you cloak every jump there is very little chance you would be caught.

BRs that are not cloaking and/or autopiloting will be shot by gankers, we call it BR roulette, as they can't be scanned so you never know what you will get. Some do it exclusively and some like myself do it when traffic is really slow and I haven't shot anything in a while.

I rarely see DSTs get shot unless they are autopiloting or have no tank fit, otherwise they take multiple ships to kill and are generally not worth ganking.

DST Highsec Kills
BR Highsec Kills

Keep in mind a lot of these kills are from wars, so they are not all ganks. Looking at the ship type used and or the corp/alliance doing the killing will indicate if it was a gank or not.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Tarojan
Tarojan Corporation
#3 - 2015-08-05 17:33:06 UTC
Some advice I was given when I first started was if your tech 2 fit mission ship with no bling or a cheap, tanked transport carrying low value cargo safely within your tank/cargo value ratio, then DONT use insta undocks. Reason being you want them to scan you and see your not worth the time, rather then being slippery and having someone set a trap for you on your bookmark to try to catch you.

That and don't ever ever auto pilot. Seriously. If you need the bathroom or the door goes, pick a random station in the system your in and hit dock. Resume travel when your back at the keyboard.

Keeping your cargo within your tank, not auto piloting and not flying under war decs and I think the ratio would be more like 1 in 10,000 trips for a gank attempt.

Will gank for food

Darion Maken
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2015-08-05 18:47:56 UTC
Thank you for the responses. There was a mention of 'doing it wrong' for the cloaking. How is it done incorrectly? I align, then slight pause - probably 1/2 second - hit cloak and MWD - almost instantly together. Then wait until about 1 second is left on the MWD cycle, hit cloak to turn it off and again almost instantly jump. The gotchas seem to be when the gate dumps someone right on top of you sometime after the align but before the jump.

As for risk - it seemed low to me but don't know how easy it is to chase down a cloaked ship after that brief flash of uncloaking between the gate cloak going down and the ship cloak going up tells you where they are at.

Darion
Tarojan
Tarojan Corporation
#5 - 2015-08-05 18:53:04 UTC
land on grid
pause for deep breath
look at ship and check which way its facing. follow its path down to nearest celestial.
align to celestial
hit mwd
hit cloak
when mwd has done its full cycle then hit warp.

Will gank for food

Paranoid Loyd
#6 - 2015-08-05 20:13:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Tarojan wrote:
look at ship and check which way its facing. follow its path down to nearest celestial.
10s cycle time is 10s, where/to what you align is irrelevant.

OP,

Sounds like your method is correct, the best way to know is to test it with a friend.

Along with the correct method, the other part to doing it right is making sure your fit is capable of performing it. Using the wrong cloak is the most common mistake, I've also seen the wrong size MWD being used. It is also possible in the case of DSTs (very poor agility) to have a combination of insufficient skills (related to agility, armor mass penalty reductions and/or MWD speed boost) and mods that slow your acceleration (plates, armor rigs) to the point that it would cause you to not be able to properly pull off the trick.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#7 - 2015-08-05 21:59:32 UTC
Most dangerous part of flying a BR is landing at the dock in Jita. There seems to be a pause while decloaking even if you have an insta-dock (or maybe I'm doing it wrong). I now fit a substantial passive tank and have survived a couple of gank attempts. Seem to get my "docking request accepted" then ding! kill right notification - otherwise I wouldn't know anything had happened.

I will preferentially use my DST rather than a freighter if the cargo will fit (personal hauling - RFF requires the use of a freighter) and I use the same rule as my freighter - keep it under 1 billion. Without a cloak the DST will warp in 1 pulse of the afterburner (7.5 sec) and I can fit a large ASB. With MWD/cloak it's 10 second cycle and I can only fit a medium ASB. Honestly don't know which is safer but tend to use the afterburner because it's less work - easier to multitask. On the other hand people will gank an empty freighter if it's the only game in town and you'll find ransom bumpers practically everywhere these days.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#8 - 2015-08-06 14:05:50 UTC
Tarojan wrote:
Some advice I was given when I first started was if your tech 2 fit mission ship with no bling or a cheap, tanked transport carrying low value cargo safely within your tank/cargo value ratio, then DONT use insta undocks. Reason being you want them to scan you and see your not worth the time, rather then being slippery and having someone set a trap for you on your bookmark to try to catch you.


Not a problem unless you are extremely careless or extremely unlucky. Set your undocks far enough out and you have all of the warp to options to choose from. Combine this with multiple undocks set at different distances and the chances of getting caught are as close to zero as it is possible to be. Another tip I was given on undocks is to set them far enough out that you are off grid from those sitting around the undock waiting for targets.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#9 - 2015-08-06 15:38:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
900m in a freighter can be risky or not just depending on how many bored gankers are on your route and depending on whether or not you use a webbing alt. EHP doesn't do much except determine how long they'll have to bump you whilst they gather enough catalyst pilots.

300m is kinda low for a DST, you can get over freighter level EHP on some of them, cloak/mwd trick can get you past most hassle and an MJD can prevent anyone from bumping you whilst waiting for friends to gather.

I still fly the same BR I flew when I first bought one as my very first T2 ship. It should be almost uncatchable in high/lowsec when used correctly.
-Cloak every jump
-Use an anonymous alt for high-value purchases/courier jobs
-Use insta-undock and insta-dock BMs (also activate the autopilot whilst in warp when using an instadock instead of needing to spam-click 'dock' and play with the server ticks)

Ofc the other options you haven't mentioned are:
-insta-aligning shuttles/frigs - with less than 2 second align time these are *mostly* safe for high value, low volume goods, the obvious big-risk is smartbombing ships that set themselves up on the exit gate for a system and can then ruin your day. Yachts and ceptors are an extension of these for nullsec use because of their bubble immunity. If you make perch bookmarks on regular gates and know what kind of ships might have a smartbomb suprise fitted then you're pretty much uncatchable.

-Cloaky, nullified T3s - tankier, bubble immune, smaller volume blockade runners or tankier, cloaky, larger volume interceptors. Awesome things. Throw a few agility implants at them and they're again almost uncatchable and you don't really need to use BMs to avoid smartbombs - if you don't need the nullification then you can get even more tank/cargo/agility from them for highsec use.

-Orcas and bowheads - somewhere between DSTs and Freighters, less cargo space but more ehp than a freighter, more cargo but less tricksiness than a DST.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#10 - 2015-08-06 18:14:22 UTC
I routinely haul sleeper loot in the area of 5 billion (yeah on this character) using the DST. One of the neat things about the human condition is that we readily get used to anything. The first few times it was a bit stressful, but now I just warp from gate to gate and don't really think about it.

A lot of that has to do with what I'm doing though. I pop out of a wh, go X jumps to an npc sleeper loot station, sell crap and head back. I'm not hauling from Amarr or Dodi to Jita, so my route risk is minimal. I'm in empire a total of maybe 10 minutes before I'm in a station selling the loot so my exposure time is also very short.

You'd pretty much have to be in my corp to know the when and where to pull off a hit on my hauler, but if you were in my corp you'd be ganking your share of the loot, so I really don't see that happening. It would most likely be a gank by some lucky wh corp or a day tripping gang catching me on the exit wh.


My point? There are a lot of things that get hauled in eve to a lot of different places. Your personal security measures have a fair few variables to consider. There really isn't a right answer. You can freighter on auto pilot many places in eve if you take a few precautions. Low profile. Avoid a few key systems which will keep you off the beaten path. Always manually pilot through the 3 systems we are all thinking about right now. Simple stuff really.

Put a guy in the freighter ganking groups if you're a hard core hauler dude. Help gank other guys (competitors) and have inside info as to if they want to bake your bacon or not. If red frog never had a hand in freighter ganking (for competition reasons or intell reasons) I would be totally shocked.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#11 - 2015-08-07 20:52:10 UTC
General rule for me is small and pricey you use an agility fitted/ hyperspacial BR

For chunky mid price range I use a super tank DST.

For big bulk like raw minerals and ships use a freighter.

For t2/faction/pirate ships a super tank bow head.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#12 - 2015-08-07 21:18:54 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
General rule for me is small and pricey you use an agility fitted/ hyperspacial BR

For chunky mid price range I use a super tank DST.

For big bulk like raw minerals and ships use a freighter.

For t2/faction/pirate ships a super tank bow head.


"Small and pricey" is an elastic term here - a fully expanded BR can carry a cruiser hull + fittings, 2 T3 hulls and fittings or 3 GSCs and change.

And with ore compression, it's startling to calculate just how much mineral value can be moved in those 3 GSCs.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2015-08-08 08:10:08 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
-Use insta-undock and insta-dock BMs (also activate the autopilot whilst in warp when using an instadock instead of needing to spam-click 'dock' and play with the server ticks)
Actually, there's no need to spam 'dock'.

A little-known game mechanic is that you have 10s of invulnerability every time you exit warp.

You exit warp when the speed gauge under your capacitor starts showing numbers again.

From that moment, if you don't issue any commands, you cannot be locked for 10s. I don't know if you can be bumped (I'll test it when I have a chance), though I'm pretty sure you can be smartbombed (not tested, but you can be smartbombed IN WARP while landing so...).

So the 'smooth and classy' way to instadock is to wait for numbers to show on your speed gauge, wait a second or two because you're cool, then click dock just once and you're golden.

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