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Agent lied to me about burner rat
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Reaver Glitterstim

The Scope

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 3,058

#1 - 2015-08-06 11:52:36 UTC | Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim

I took on the Serpentis burner mission and carefully read the data on the Daredevil rat, which I used to EFT a rock-solid fit on a Hawk. I had enough tank to be stable against quite a bit more DPS than any Daredevil could possibly put out with Shadow Antimatter in railguns, but that thing tore my Hawk apart slowly but surely with my booster overheated the whole time.

After the fight, I did some EFT work based on the values I saw, both its damage against me and mine against it. What I found is that it's literally not possible for a Daredevil to deal enough DPS to break my Hawk's tank even with multiple officer mag stabs, faction rails overheated, and no angular velocity. But this rat was orbiting at a decent speed at 10-11km distance. At full speed without prop (one full orbit in about 60 seconds, which seems right) its rails would be tracking my 39m Hawk at about 10% higher than the angular velocity, meaning they shouldn't have been getting critical hits much, but what I actually saw was a constant stream of wrecking hits. So apparently not only did the rat have more DPS than a Daredevil can possibly have (without any tank), it also had an ungodly high amount of tracking.

Now that's not all. Given its immensely DPS-oriented fit, it should have had virtually no tank at all, but on the contrary I had difficulty removing even its shields. I had 355 damage volleys dealing 25 damage to it, which is 7%. So either it had multiple kinetic shield and armor hardeners, or its signature radius was FAR below the sig radius of a Daredevil, at 35m. I tried graphing the DPS of my missiles against a Daredevil and I couldn't obtain DPS values as low as I saw without both overheating an afterburner AND fitting 2 kinetic armor hardeners to it. Now I know it didn't just have all the tank stacked on kinetic, because I used some EM missiles too and they weren't significantly better against shields, and were considerably worse against armor.

So either it's reasonable to assume a single Daredevil can deal ~400 DPS at 10km while orbiting a 39m target at about 480m/s, with a signature radius on the Daredevil of under 20m and a strong armor tank, or my agent lied and that wasn't a Daredevil at all.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Arthur Direction

I Accidentally Basilisks

Likes received: 6

#2 - 2015-08-06 12:58:59 UTC

Turn on your hardeners...

No seriously the DD burner does 264dps kin/therm... You can have a pith small shield booster with no resist mods and tank that.

[Hawk, Expensive but effective]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Pithi A-Type Small Shield Booster
Pithum A-Type Kinetic Deflection Amplifier
Cap Recharger II
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Rocket Launcher II, Scourge Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Scourge Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Scourge Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Scourge Rage Rocket
280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Quake S

Small Capacitor Control Circuit II
Small Warhead Rigor Catalyst II

Or use this, put everything on him and go make a cup of coffee

Reaver Glitterstim

The Scope

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 3,058

#3 - 2015-08-06 13:19:09 UTC

I may have exaggerated the damage slightly, but are you sure that 264 DPS isn't simply before wrecking hits? I didn't have any faction or deadspace modules fit, only T2 (and meta where applicable), but I could tank more than 264 incoming DPS.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Donnachadh

United Allegiance of Undesirables

Likes received: 1,313

#4 - 2015-08-06 13:49:11 UTC

Arthur Direction wrote:

Never run this specific burner and never flown a Hawk but wondering if the newly released Guidance computer might not be a better option to the painter. Not quite as high a boost in the sig radius vs explosion radius side of the equation but I have found that with the precision script the explosion velocity increase gives a better overall result.

Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic 113
Ploing Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic Likes received: 113	#5 - 2015-08-06 14:29:44 UTC reaver can you post your fit?

Reaver Glitterstim

The Scope

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 3,058

#6 - 2015-08-06 15:01:32 UTC | Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim

Ploing wrote:

reaver can you post your fit?

Sure.

[Hawk]
Missile Guidance Enhancer II
Capacitor Flux Coil II

Cap Recharger II
Target Painter II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Thermic Dissipation Amplifier II
Small Shield Booster II

Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Rocket
[empty high slot]

Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
Small Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I

That's the fit that the rat demolished. It had to have been doing at least around 300 applied DPS, unless it had some EM or explosive damage. Also, this fit was fairly incompetent at dealing damage to the rat. I had the range to hit it with T2 ammo, but even navy rockets didn't do more than I think it was 60 or so damage per volley. I had originally intended to use rage rockets, as I figured any actual frigate would have to outdo its own railgun tracking to actually resist a significant amount of damage from them after I applied a target painter.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Estella Osoka

Cranky Bitches Who PMS

Likes received: 1,148

#7 - 2015-08-06 15:20:37 UTC

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

Ploing wrote:

reaver can you post your fit?

Awful fit. To go up against the burners you have to bling it out a bit.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=369477&find=unread


Ploing Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic Likes received: 113	#8 - 2015-08-06 16:00:18 UTC ok that explains your poor damage. try to use 2 bcs, 2 factionwebs and a more bling sb.


Reaver Glitterstim The Scope Gallente Federation Likes received: 3,058	#9 - 2015-08-06 16:46:52 UTC My point is that the rat isn't flying a Daredevil. Daredevils can't do that. FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post." Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."


Estella Osoka Cranky Bitches Who PMS Likes received: 1,148	#10 - 2015-08-06 16:50:45 UTC Reaver Glitterstim wrote: My point is that the rat isn't flying a Daredevil. Daredevils can't do that. Yes they can. I think you need to read the article that initially introduced them. http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/size-matters-introducing-burner-missions/

Reaver Glitterstim

The Scope

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 3,058

#11 - 2015-08-06 17:00:08 UTC

Estella Osoka wrote:

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

My point is that the rat isn't flying a Daredevil. Daredevils can't do that.

Yes they can. I think you need to read the article that initially introduced them.

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/size-matters-introducing-burner-missions/

No, they can't. I've read the article and it doesn't change what a ship can do. A pure DPS fit Daredevil might be able to muster up that much DPS if it were scoring wrecking hits on the target, but it couldn't track nearly that well if it were moving at full velocity, and it would have to be moving several times its full velocity to mitigate rocket damage like that unless its sig radius were absurdly low.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Ploing

Blue Republic

RvB - BLUE Republic

Likes received: 113

#12 - 2015-08-06 17:31:40 UTC | Edited by: Ploing

fozzie said there are on steroids. why should we all use these bling fits? why did the wormburner only missiledamage?

also take a quick look here

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=367275&p=2

and here

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=371443&find=unread

€

Burner Missions pit you against a single enemy NPC. This NPC is an extremely powerful frigate with stats based on those of a player flying a pirate frigate with officer/deadspace gear, pirate implants, and command links. All of these NPCs use warp disruption, and most of them use scramblers that turn off microwarpdrives the same way player scramblers do.


Estella Osoka Cranky Bitches Who PMS Likes received: 1,148	#13 - 2015-08-06 18:02:06 UTC Yes they can. The burner has boosts and officer/deadspace mods. I can squeeze out 291 DPS, with a volley of 724. Those wrecking hits are the volley hitting you. And NPC rats have never had to worry about capacitor.

Reaver Glitterstim

The Scope

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 3,058

#14 - 2015-08-06 19:42:39 UTC | Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim

No, even with ganglinks they might have the DPS but the rat's tracking is several times higher than a player's, and its sig radius is less than half of a player's sig radius. It may be able to have that much raw DPS but it won't have that kind of application, and there's no way it's equivalent to a player fit even with skirmish warfare links because no player Daredevil needs two webs on it to apply optimal damage with rockets.

These things at minimum have several times player tracking and a base sig radius under half that of a player ship. At maximum they have significantly more DPS and far more base hit points. There's definitely no one fit that can reach attributes like that; most of them can barely be reached with a fit dedicated to the one attribute, some can't be reached at all.

But if you're so certain that it can be done, please post what fit you think this rat has, or any fit that can match its performance. Include ganglinks and implants. I'll load it in EFT and see if it gets anywhere near the burner rat against my Hawk.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."


Ploing Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic Likes received: 113	#15 - 2015-08-06 19:47:02 UTC accept that they cheated and RTFT that estella posted. nuff...

Reaver Glitterstim

The Scope

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 3,058

#16 - 2015-08-06 20:57:36 UTC

Ploing wrote:

accept that they cheated and RTFT that estella posted.

nuff...

I read the thread, what's your point? It's not even a factor because even if CCP Fozzie had come straight out and said that these rats have superior stats to players (which he did not), it doesn't change the fact that the agent lied to me by failing to mention that.

Here, I EFT'd up a sketch that demonstrates just how overpowered the rat is: http://i.imgur.com/TOSlUT1.png

In that screenshot I built the same Hawk I used for the fight, note that the hardener is overheated and nothing else is. That was the status of my ship for the majority of the fight, except that I swapped ammo several times to see if any other types would work better. CN Scourge was the best against armor and therefore the best type to use. My CN Scourge rockets were hitting for something around 50 damage per volley without overheating, that's about 22 DPS, nothing like the 38.8 DPS I would get against the fit I built (124 DPS x 0.313 after kinetic resist). Even with maxed out skirmish links (command pilot has fed navy mindlink) and full high-grade Halo set, the Daredevil still should be taking almost full damage from the rockets with nothing more than my target painter and missile guidance enhancer. I swapped the ammo out for Dread Guristas Antimatter to boost the DPS so I could do with just one officer mag stab, given it was struggling with CPU when I had 2, and there was no armor tank to speak of. With this setup and weapons overheated, my Hawk could still tank it indefinitely, especially considering how much DPS it loses to tracking. I could tank 219 DPS without overheating, and it only gets 227. But that rat had around 300 DPS yet still had a sig radius probably close to 10m or smaller, and given how long it took me to tear down its shields and 15% of its armor, probably several times the HP of that Daredevil I have there.

That hugely boosted Daredevil with extremely expensive implants and a perfect fit would be torn to shreds by my T2 fit Hawk with no implants or boosts, simply because the Hawk is a good ship to use against a Daredevil.

The burner rat does NOT have player-level attributes, end of story.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Estella Osoka

Cranky Bitches Who PMS

Likes received: 1,148

#17 - 2015-08-06 21:19:20 UTC

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

Ploing wrote:

accept that they cheated and RTFT that estella posted.

nuff...

That doesn't seem to be the case does it. If it did have player attributes it would have lost, but it didn't. Now man up, read the first thread I posted, fit your Hawk better, and try again.

This is what you should be using:

[Hawk, Burner Daredevil pimped V01]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Ballistic Control System II

Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400
Dread Guristas Stasis Webifier
Dread Guristas Stasis Webifier
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Rocket
[empty high slot]
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Rocket

Small Bay Loading Accelerator II
Small Warhead Rigor Catalyst I

10,020
Paranoid Loyd Likes received: 10,020	#18 - 2015-08-06 21:22:37 UTC 4 Your burner tears are glorious. Whaaa a computer game lied to me. You sound like a two year old. Grow up ffs. "There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix Fix the Prospect!


Estella Osoka Cranky Bitches Who PMS Likes received: 1,148	#19 - 2015-08-06 21:28:38 UTC Paranoid Loyd wrote: Your burner tears are glorious. Whaaa a computer game lied to me. You sound like a two year old. Grow up ffs. Well he is a member of TEST. What did you expect?


Ploing Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic Likes received: 113	#20 - 2015-08-06 21:44:28 UTC \| Edited by: Ploing Reaver Glitterstim wrote: The burner rat does NOT have player-level attributes, end of story. finally you got it and your fit with cal nav scourge failed with ~150 dps. jesus i lost a hawk with 210 dps cause i failed to take my bcs in. better get on test server first. TEST implies that

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