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Why is it like this?

First post
Author
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#61 - 2015-08-05 19:13:16 UTC
Hal Morsh wrote:
Tam Arai wrote:
shoot them after they have looted



You can't. CCP changed it where you cannot loot the cans if you weren't the hacker. So you cannot shoot anyone because they cannot go suspect.



Well, there's your problem - you're in highsec and complaining about not being able to shoot someone you want to shoot.
Salvos Rhoska
#62 - 2015-08-05 19:19:30 UTC
Some way to steal would be good, same as in Combat sigs.
kes88
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2015-08-05 19:31:53 UTC
Yossarian Toralen wrote:
I'm confused about this thread so I would like to ask a couple of questions:

Can you access another persons hacked can from a data/relic site in highsec if you have you have your saftey settings at the correct level?

Is this a "I couldn't get an easy kill so something must be done about it" thread?

Is it really a problem if you can't ninja loot data/relic goodies in highsec?

I know you can definately ninja loot in a combat site in highsec, had a 4 day old toon get away with 120mill worth of goodies from a site I completed a month or so ago (I webbed him instead of scram), I applauded his efforts when I found out how old the toon was.


To answer your first, I have not tried it but I imagine you can't access a can someone else is hacking, regardless of safety settings. But I haven't played eve much recently, so maybe wait until another explorer comments on this one.

To answer your second question, yes. Yes it is.

To answer you third question, no. No it isn't.

Hi sec exploration is worth absolute peanuts anyway, which is why even if the OP could have his mechanics the way he wanted them, nobody would even bother.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#64 - 2015-08-05 20:08:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Yossarian Toralen wrote:
I'm confused about this thread so I would like to ask a couple of questions:

Can you access another persons hacked can from a data/relic site in highsec if you have you have your saftey settings at the correct level?

Is this a "I couldn't get an easy kill so something must be done about it" thread?

Is it really a problem if you can't ninja loot data/relic goodies in highsec?

I know you can definately ninja loot in a combat site in highsec, had a 4 day old toon get away with 120mill worth of goodies from a site I completed a month or so ago (I webbed him instead of scram), I applauded his efforts when I found out how old the toon was.

1. No. Once you activate a can by hacking/analysing it, no-one else can use their modules on it and you are also blocked from accessing cans until you, personally, unlock them. So a claimed can cannot be accessed at all.

2. Yes. That's the essence of the demand for s-flagging. He wants to go back to the very brief anomalous period when we had a combination of loot spew (an almost universally detested game mechanic) and S-flagging for accessing those spew cans so he can pick and choose which targets to go after (and have every advantage against), rather than go find fights in less restricted areas of space where he can't dictate the terms of the engagement.

3. Not particularly, since the content is almost worthless. It might be good for babbys first exploration, before the character has the skills to take on combat sites, but that's about it. This also puts #2 in a different light…

Historically, you couldn't really do it either since you didn't own the cans to begin with, and while there might be some argument for allowing multiple competing hacks, that's pretty much as it was before too: whomever got to the can first got the loot unless their skills were appalling. The main difference is that it used to be a matter of SP-skills; now it's a matter of “not clicking poorly” skills. The actual PvP element of these sites — finding them first and being the first to reach a given can — are the same as always, and theft and combat are now back to where they've pretty much always been.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Some way to steal would be good, same as in Combat sigs.
Conceivably, but you have to remember what type of content we're talking about. This is a harvesting (mini)profession and doesn't work any differently in terms of theft than its cousins mining and salvaging. There, too, ownership is immediate and the only way to steal anything is to blow up whomever beat you to the goods and hope there's anything left in the wreck.
Yossarian Toralen
M and M Enterpises
#65 - 2015-08-05 20:32:12 UTC
Thanks for clearing that up.


To the OP, there is many ways to get a PVP fix without baiting newbros trying to scrape a few isks together, there are many entries to lowsec that aren't camped 24/7 and if you want to get fights, head to lowsec and ask around for a scrap, you will get one no matter what you bring and if you do it correctly you might even get a fair 1v1.

I've noticed it seems to be Asians, Russians and drunk Brits that you are falling victim to, you could always try the US tz, they never put up a fight, hehe.
Salvos Rhoska
#66 - 2015-08-05 22:13:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Tippia wrote:
Conceivably, but you have to remember what type of content we're talking about.

Yes, you need to remember that, as you currently aren't.
As to what is conceivable? Thats not really for you to decide.

Tippia wrote:
This is a harvesting (mini)profession and doesn't work any differently in terms of theft than its cousins mining and salvaging.

False.

In mining the resource can be accessed concurrently.
In salvaging everyone can salvage concurrently.
In combat sigs everyone can access the drop.

In exploration, only one person can access the resource.

So you are completely wrong.
Tippia wrote:
There, too, ownership is immediate and the only way to steal anything is to blow up whomever beat you to the goods and hope there's anything left in the wreck.


Your notion could "conceivably" work, if asteroids/ICE, data/relic cores could also be blown up, as can for example the ship with loot on it in a combat sig. But they can't, so it isn't.
Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#67 - 2015-08-05 23:42:57 UTC
Tippia wrote:

But that's just it: nothing has really changed here. The OP is just confused about how flagging works, how exploration works (and has historically worked)



Tippia wrote:

2. Yes. That's the essence of the demand for s-flagging. He wants to go back to the very brief anomalous period when we had a combination of loot spew (an almost universally detested game mechanic) and S-flagging for accessing those spew cans




Keep going. It wasn't anomalous either.

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?

McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#68 - 2015-08-06 00:48:24 UTC  |  Edited by: McChicken Combo HalfMayo
Hal Morsh wrote:
I can't really go to low or null because I don't have a huge wallet and an army of alts

Roll

I do think you should be able to open other people's hacked containers though. Sounds like content to me.

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#69 - 2015-08-06 01:15:25 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Please also remember the reason the loot spew went away: Most all explorers hated it. Not due to theft, but because it was annoying.

Loot spew was actually removed because it had failed at it's aim of causing more co-operation in sites since people knew what to cherry pick to get the good loot solo anyway. If it had achieved that goal it likely would have been left despite the extra annoyance,
So for the op, its that way because there is no point screwing over 99% of players for the 1% who might use the ability to steal. Not with a twitch based rsi inducing mechanic anyway.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2015-08-06 01:51:46 UTC
Yossarian Toralen wrote:


Is it really a problem if you can't ninja loot data/relic goodies in highsec?


Actually, yes, it is. Banditry is a heavily advertised form of gameplay for this game, and there's no reason why an explorer can't do their hacking in a ship capable of killing bandits, especially considering most ninja looters are going to be in ninja ships. Which are usually no more than a T1 attack frigate with room for cargo. It's not about 'easy kills', it's about the dog-eat-dog nature of EVE.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#71 - 2015-08-06 02:47:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Hal Morsh
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Please also remember the reason the loot spew went away: Most all explorers hated it. Not due to theft, but because it was annoying.

Loot spew was actually removed because it had failed at it's aim of causing more co-operation in sites since people knew what to cherry pick to get the good loot solo anyway. If it had achieved that goal it likely would have been left despite the extra annoyance,
So for the op, its that way because there is no point screwing over 99% of players for the 1% who might use the ability to steal. Not with a twitch based rsi inducing mechanic anyway.



Me as a newbie and a bunch of newbie corp mates used to group up for exploration, we would have people doing roles like hacking or cargo and a guy for combat protection.


Later on I was in a highsec site with 2 or 3 other neutral players, and some Asian started nabbing my cans from the spew after I hacked it, turning him yellow. Course he teased me because I was in an imicus setup for exploration only. Ever since then I started fitting a hack ship capable of scramming and some combat delegating the scanning role to another fit. But now things have changed and there is no point for that.

I assume the system was supposed to be learnable with material containers, data containers and scrap containers, there were like 5 or 6 different types. CCP made it more simplistic now but EVE has always been min/maxed. I am thinking the old system worked because you didn't "know" if you were going to get what you wanted for your first can, so stealing a bunch threw you in risk trying to beat the hacker. You would have to sit around yellow even after cargo scanning the container to attempt at his goodies, but with just a loot able container someone could open it and loot all then quickly leaving. Headaches for CCP when people complain. Which is why I assume they removed suspect as well.

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?

Yang Aurilen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#72 - 2015-08-06 03:51:29 UTC
As expected from someone who is in Two LOSSES minimum. You guys just plain suck at the game. Looks like FW is too hard for you and decided to do exploration.

PS all your problem is in your head.

Post with your NPC alt main and not your main main alt!

Salvos Rhoska
#73 - 2015-08-06 08:38:51 UTC
1) If multiple players could hack the node simultaneously, with the fastest to complete getting the loot transfer, that at least would bring in some competition on-site (no suspect timer opportunities though).

2) If the loot was ejected in a single can in a random direction, at high velocity, that too would include some competition and a suspect timer opportunity. Chasing a single can atleast is not a lot of twitch.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#74 - 2015-08-06 09:15:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
False.
Nope. You're just confusing two completely separate modes of competition.

Quote:
In mining the resource can be accessed concurrently.
In salvaging everyone can salvage concurrently.
In combat sigs everyone can access the drop.

In exploration, only one person can access the resource.
…but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about theft, which isn't possible in any of the harvesting professions. So again, conceivably, a way to steal would be good, but that would be out of character compared to the other content of the same category. Ownership is immediate; theft is not an option — this is consistent across all harvesting.

Quote:
Your notion could "conceivably" work, if asteroids/ICE, data/relic cores could also be blown up, as can for example the ship with loot on it in a combat sig. But they can't, so it isn't.
It was your notion, remember? And yes, that's pretty much the reason why it doesn't work that way.

Quote:
If multiple players could hack the node simultaneously, with the fastest to complete getting the loot transfer, that at least would bring in some competition on-site (no suspect timer opportunities though).
There is already some competition on-site. It's just not centred on the hacking mini-game.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#75 - 2015-08-06 09:21:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Hal Morsh wrote:
It wasn't anomalous either.
Yes it was, per Salvos' description above, and per the very brief overlap of two the two systems.

Quote:
Later on I was in a highsec site with 2 or 3 other neutral players, and some Asian started nabbing my cans from the spew after I hacked it, turning him yellow. Course he teased me because I was in an imicus setup for exploration only. Ever since then I started fitting a hack ship capable of scramming and some combat delegating the scanning role to another fit. But now things have changed and there is no point for that.
…and that just returns us to the question of: yes? So what? What's the problem you're trying to solve? Highsec exploration has been returned to a regular state of not allowing theft and not being a good vehicle for newbie baiting. Why should it change? Why can't you just do the type of exploration that still works (and always have worked) the way you're envisioning it?

You are complaining about a mechanic that has been returned to its old historical state, at the same time trying to paint a picture of “it was better in the olden days”, and you are refusing to actually do the content that works the way you want. It doesn't make for a particularly sensible or coherent argument…

Quote:
I assume the system was supposed to be learnable with material containers, data containers and scrap containers, there were like 5 or 6 different types. CCP made it more simplistic now but EVE has always been min/maxed. I am thinking the old system worked because you didn't "know" if you were going to get what you wanted for your first can, so stealing a bunch threw you in risk trying to beat the hacker.
…except that you pretty much always knew what you were going to get (indeed, that was part of the reasoning they used to advocate loot spew), and that the complexity turned out to not add anything useful. It was just predictable complexity for its own sake, which is just pointless busywork. Its intended purpose failed to materialise, at which point it became a bad design, as all pointless busywork always is.
Salvos Rhoska
#76 - 2015-08-06 09:41:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
There is no reason why some more competition on HS mechanics in terms of exploration would not be a good thing (doesnt affect other sec, cos they have different systemic rules of engagement)

As is already shown and echoed by many other posters, HS exploration loot is worth piddly squat to begin with.
Inorder to improve the quality of the loot, the relative difficulty of aquiring them needs to be adjusted.

The way to do that, is by including more systemic competition in the actual mechanics of the nodes and getting loot from them.
The volume of players actually engaged in it is a secondary result of these factors, as is the value of the loot a result of other changes saturating the market.

As I pointed out, with all other harvesting mechanics, the resource is universally accessible concurrently with other players.
Everyone can mine the same asteroid.
Everyone can salvage the same wreck.
Everyone can loot/destroy the combat sig ship.

In exploration, the competition is superficial and amounts only to who reaches the node first.
The node becomes their sole and uninfringible property, which goes against the grain of EVE ethics.

Tippia has attempted to falsely misdirect the notion of "theft" here as to taking something from someones cargo hold.
That is not the issue here.
IF you mine that rock and the ore makes it to your hold, then its yours.
(If someone else completes their cycle in the last bit before you, you get nothing).
IF you salvage more successfully and the wreck is translated into your hold, then its yours.
(Deoends on RNG and salvage related skills/builds).
IF you manage to reach the combat sig wreck first, then its yours.
(Depending on whether opponent does not destroy it, or goes suspect to steal it, or you doing that yourself)

However in exploration, all you need to do, is reach it.
Pretty weak competition mechanic right there.


The equivalent in mining or salvaging would be that as soon as you engage salvage/mining the asteroid/wreck becomes exclusively yours, which is obviously not the case and would be universally rejected if anyone even suggested it. In combat sigs the ship would be unlootable by anyone who didnt destroy it. Hell no.

Adding more elements of healthy competition is always a good thing.

Despite Tippias claims, I never referred to anything as "anomalous", nor was there anything anomalous about how the node mechanics have been changed. No idea where she got that from. Either she is confused or is trying to deliberately ambiguate posters positions together in an attempt to generalize and avoid other specific arguments from each individual..
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#77 - 2015-08-06 09:54:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Adding more elements of healthy competition is always a good thing.
Sure, but remember, that's not actually what the OP is asking for. He wants to be given combat right in a newbie-centred profession, in a way such that he is given all the advantages, rather than engage in the versions of the same profession where that kind of player opposition already exists (but where he won't necessarily get those advantages)…

I was fishing for the OP to discover on his own what part of his “issue” that made some minor sense (as opposed to the non-issue he's having) but now you spoiled it. Cry

Quote:
Despite Tippias claims, I never referred to anything as "anomalous", nor was there anything anomalous about how the node mechanics have been changed. No idea where she got that from.

You amply demonstrated how consistent the lack of a “stealable” object is. The anomaly in question is the very brief overlap between the period when one existed and when that theft generated system-wide aggression rights.

Quote:
Tippia has attempted to falsely misdirect the notion of "theft" here as to taking something from someones cargo hold.
No. It is neither false, nor a misdirection. It is exactly what the thread is about.

I am talking about theft, because the OP wants to have theft-triggered S-flags handed out to his opposition. You keep going off on the strawman tangent about how there could be more access, as if someone had actually said otherwise. The idea that it has anything to do with cargo holds is entirely your invention and you have fundamentally and completely misunderstood what I'm actually talking about.
Salvos Rhoska
#78 - 2015-08-06 10:05:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
I am not beholden to what OP is asking for.
I am not him. You are not him.

And you are misrepresenting him.

He hss not asked for combat rights. Going suspect is NOT a combat right for the suspect. Only for others to engage him.
Im surprised youndidnt know that.

He asked for a way to compete for the loot outside of simply reaching the node first.

Nor is exploration universally a "newbie centered profession", as you generalize.
Its universally practiced by players old and new. The only exception here being how it happens in HS due to a different set of rules of engagement.

Moving the goal posts is not conducive to construcrive discussion.

I amply demonstrated that your claim that other harvesting professions are the same was false.
Miners/Salvagers/CombatSig all have competition mechanics beyond simply reaching a node and tapping it.

There never was an "anomalous" period. That has been only your term, from your mouth.

There was a sequence of changes which ran through different iterations of intent, each of which worked as intended for the time they existed.

And yes, your attempt to define "theft" as something that happens once the loot is in your hold, is completely besides the point.
Nobody has raised issue with the loot that makes it into a pilots hold being theirs and that standard rules of engagement to take it from there apply as per security status.

This is about the competition that takes place inorder to get it into your hold in the firs place, which as I demonstrated on other professions is far more involved than just reaching it and tapping it, as is the case uniquely in relic/data sites.

The equivalent would be that an asteroid/wreck becomes SOLELY YOURS the second you activate laser/salvager on it, and a combat sig SOLELY YOURS the second you destroy it. The difference is that in every thing else ITS NOT YOURS until its in your hold. Whereas in relic/data its SOLELY YOURS the second you begin to analyze it.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#79 - 2015-08-06 10:13:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
I am not beholden to what OP is asking for.
…but you are beholden to what's actually said when you quote something and say that it is “false”.

When I talk about theft, and you maniacally jump in and yell “false”, only to immediately turn around and talk about something completely unrelated to “prove” that its “false”, then you are creating a strawman.

Quote:
And you are misrepresenting him.

He hss not asked for combat rights.
Yes he has. Read it again. He very explicitly wants it to be possible for others to steal from him so they get S-flags so he can pick and choose whom to attack (along with the slew of advantages it brings to be the wronged party in a suspect situation — it's this last part he seems to not understand, which disqualifies him from talking about s-flagging to begin with). He said so on the first page; he did it again in the subsequent pages; and he's illustrated it again on this very page.

The thing you're railing against — that there shouldn't be more competition — is a position that no-one holds, but that part is also not something the OP particularly focuses on. He only seems to want his combat rights.

Quote:
Nor is exploration universally a "newbie centered profession", as you generalize.
We are talking about exploration of highsec relic and data sites — very much a newbie centred prefession. As everyone has been pointing out, there is nothing universal about them, which is why the question has been raised why he's not pursuing content that already works the way he wants?

Quote:
Moving the goal posts is not conducive to construcrive discussion.
Then stop doing so. And stop being a sleeper representative of the straw council in how many strawmen you erect.

I have never redefined theft in any way — that's just something you've made up because you're illiterate and desperately wishing for something to pick on. You are the only one talking about cargo holds. I'm talking about theft as it works in the game, which is the exact opposite of the definition you're trying to assign to me.

Quote:
There never was an "anomalous" period. That has been only your term, from your mouth.
…aside from the period just described, when theft was possible (which is anomalous in and of itself) and gave hugely advantageous aggression rights.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#80 - 2015-08-06 10:13:35 UTC
The only consistent way to 'compete for the node' would be to able to both play the minigame at the same time also.

However that turns EVE into a clickspam twitch game of how fast can you click nodes and what your ping is, which is not what EVE is about.
Being able to loot the can would be even sillier, as that would be even more a twitch fest ping dependant game.

So, please propose a non loot spew, non twitch/ping fest mechanic. And it 'might' have some merit if you can actually devise a suitable mechanic.