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Making engagements fun again - More hitpoints same dps?
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Gunther Hlaegus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2015-08-02 09:23:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Gunther Hlaegus
Hello EVE community!

I am mot sure we have discussed this before.
Looking back to the initial years of EVE I am very happy to see all the changes and adjustments made. Although I believe that CCP will need a quantum leap fwd in the next 2 years to ensure their pilot base doesnt fly to other space games being developed.

I remember the fun that we had entering engagaements and no matter what was the ship you were flying, with good skills and no mistakes you were able to stay on grid a couple of minutes, especially if you had logis on the grid.

Now (and since a while) when entering big engagements (and that is only 100+) some ships just pop. Insta pop not in the way of a fair concentrated firepoower. Sometimes you dont ec
even hear the lock on your ship...milisec after ur gone.

Could all ships have 50% more hps without changing their dps?
Could engagements be a little bit longer? just a little bit?

Today the sweet spot is having 20 vs 20 sort of engagement. Can we bring the same fun of tactics and logis to bigger events?

Gun
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#2 - 2015-08-02 11:34:27 UTC
Should remain careful around that marker. The recent buff to active tanking modules (something like 20% across the board) was what made them as popular/viable as is right now. Before that, buffertanking was plain better 9/10 times without links on your side, and your tank mod was a hero scimi (now it's an XL-ASB). That to smallscale.

It doesn't quite matter that much, where exactly the critical-mass-to-break-through-logistics-marker is - if it applies to all ships, it will just arbitrarily bloat engagement sizes by necessity. Now CBC/BS only and we're talking!
Varrinox
Shadows of the Empire
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#3 - 2015-08-02 11:50:15 UTC
Raw HP on ships is not the main factor to what makes an engagement fun. The biggest factor is when both sides judge the situation as such that they both believe they can win and as such try hard to beat the other. The reality with majority of engagements is that 1 side can overwhelm the other without much risk to own pilots.

Changing ship HP values isn't thhe answer I don't think.

Finding a way to encourage more small gang non escalating fights is solution but the route to achieving success in this is far from clear.

If you want more of the magic number 20v20 fights your best bet is group with people to organise such a thing on a organised basis as you won't really find such fights .
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#4 - 2015-08-02 18:41:53 UTC
Years ago the same argument was made and the DEVs decided to DOUBLE all ship HP.

The results?

- buffer tanking become VERY powerful... more so than active tanking
- more people blobbed (because people had to compensate for the extra HP)
- you were also required to blob because if your fight took too long then others would show up to kill you
- net result: people continued to die just as quickly as before.

How did you Veterans start?
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2015-08-02 22:57:16 UTC
Varrinox wrote:
Raw HP on ships is not the main factor to what makes an engagement fun. The biggest factor is when both sides judge the situation as such that they both believe they can win and as such try hard to beat the other. The reality with majority of engagements is that 1 side can overwhelm the other without much risk to own pilots.

Changing ship HP values isn't thhe answer I don't think.

Finding a way to encourage more small gang non escalating fights is solution but the route to achieving success in this is far from clear.

If you want more of the magic number 20v20 fights your best bet is group with people to organise such a thing on a organised basis as you won't really find such fights .



Very accurate. Many players have a distaste for pre-arranged e-honor contests. At the same time, ability to escalate is a great factor in deciding whether or not to engage.

You might have the capacity to engage a 25 man fleet in T3D's and logi, but choose to remain docked because they have on batphone an entity that regularly escalates cruiser fights all the way up to supers.
Master Sergeant MacRobert
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#6 - 2015-08-03 13:12:00 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:


Very accurate. Many players have a distaste for pre-arranged e-honor contests. At the same time, ability to escalate is a great factor in deciding whether or not to engage.

You might have the capacity to engage a 25 man fleet in T3D's and logi, but choose to remain docked because they have on batphone an entity that regularly escalates cruiser fights all the way up to supers.



Yep the HP buff was required when it happened as it was too easy to alpha targets with small numbers. The big factor was the instant (no challenge) ability to hot drop escalation that arrived with jump drives.

Once this coincides with boredom for pilots of Capitals/Supers because they naturally stimulate risk averse engagement, you have situations where combat is so oft "lop-sided".

However, the ability to escalate smartly does also create content where there might be none. Baiting done well is a very good combat driver.


I think it is a good idea to start with something for the CBC's and BS's. Since their build costs increased they lost their cost effectiveness and the warp speed changes put the nail in the coffin a bit.

Perhaps

  1. CBC's should have something along the lines of: higher speed, tough nut tanks with low damage projection but good application at <10km.
  2. Tier 1 and 2 BS's should have something like: low speed, slightly increased base resists, with improved local reps (tough nuts) with average damage projection and an application sweet spot around 15k - 30km (on average) - would be appropriate tracking and good falloff? Being able to trade dps for lower class weapons to apply to cruisers.
  3. Tier 3 BS's should perhaps differ along the lines of having huge amounts of damage and tank but, at poor application below it's own class (BS's to take out BS's).


It is surely possible to find these classes of hull the right roles in the field?

"Remedy this situation or you shall live out the rest of your life in a pain amplifier"
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#7 - 2015-08-03 14:01:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
I think it is a good idea to start with something for the CBC's and BS's. Since their build costs increased they lost their cost effectiveness and the warp speed changes put the nail in the coffin a bit.


The issue is rather the progression from frig - dessi - cruiser - CBC - BS. The cruiser is the golden middleground because it deals a large potion of the damage a BS would offer already, can arguably be very tanky and it goes almost as fast as frigates. The borders up to CBC/BS are even more blurred looking at HACs.
Balance between classes is pretty decent by now, but cruisers are just 20% faster than they should be (looks at 20% velocity buff across the board, mistakes were made)

BS are amazing ships, but their main advantage comes from utility highs and heavy CBs - even though those just barely make up for the lack of notable additional cap regen jumping from medium to large sized ships. +X% cap recharge for all BS would be a just appropriate measure following up on the MWD-changes.
Gunther Hlaegus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8 - 2015-08-03 14:11:58 UTC
Varrinox wrote:
Raw HP on ships is not the main factor to what makes an engagement fun. The biggest factor is when both sides judge the situation as such that they both believe they can win and as such try hard to beat the other. The reality with majority of engagements is that 1 side can overwhelm the other without much risk to own pilots.

Changing ship HP values isn't thhe answer I don't think.

Finding a way to encourage more small gang non escalating fights is solution but the route to achieving success in this is far from clear.

If you want more of the magic number 20v20 fights your best bet is group with people to organise such a thing on a organised basis as you won't really find such fights .


Yes. agree.
I dont have the answer either, and its easy to organize 20 pilot roam, thats why I like black ops drop and counterdrop.
But this is one way only as you rarely find similar compositions on the other side.

Im fine in having to dedicate my ecperience in smaller gangs...its just not satisfying enough. I still expect more from the game, from the big engagements perspective. I always had this as the main driver / motivation. What do you do with 2 toons sitting on 120 M SP. It was an investment of time and money. The promise is falling short.

I wish the beat Capital pilots would really work together with DEVs to sort out how to foster and improve large scale engagements. Outside of tournaments ofc
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#9 - 2015-08-03 14:27:25 UTC
If you up ship EHP you are buffing logistics (harder to alpha, quick switch and kill stuff before logi catches it, etc). Not something we need atm imo.

JUSTK is recruiting
Gunther Hlaegus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2015-08-03 16:07:44 UTC
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
If you up ship EHP you are buffing logistics (harder to alpha, quick switch and kill stuff before logi catches it, etc). Not something we need atm imo.


Man, ofc you understand that my point was not only about EHP.
Maybe its about Logis endurance on grid, what do I know...

This is such a complex ecosystem that is difficult to find the right mix.
Im just stating that big engagements not fun for many.

I would like to see that if I am primary objective I have at least time to see how hull goes down
Legatus1982
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#11 - 2015-08-04 15:33:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Legatus1982
Gunther Hlaegus wrote:
Hello EVE community!

I am mot sure we have discussed this before.
Looking back to the initial years of EVE I am very happy to see all the changes and adjustments made. Although I believe that CCP will need a quantum leap fwd in the next 2 years to ensure their pilot base doesnt fly to other space games being developed.

I remember the fun that we had entering engagaements and no matter what was the ship you were flying, with good skills and no mistakes you were able to stay on grid a couple of minutes, especially if you had logis on the grid.

Now (and since a while) when entering big engagements (and that is only 100+) some ships just pop. Insta pop not in the way of a fair concentrated firepoower. Sometimes you dont ec
even hear the lock on your ship...milisec after ur gone.

Could all ships have 50% more hps without changing their dps?
Could engagements be a little bit longer? just a little bit?

Today the sweet spot is having 20 vs 20 sort of engagement. Can we bring the same fun of tactics and logis to bigger events?

Gun


Will only make the game more blobby since help will have more time to arrive imo

It does make 1v1 more interesting if you can make it happen though
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#12 - 2015-08-04 16:28:38 UTC
Gunther Hlaegus wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
If you up ship EHP you are buffing logistics (harder to alpha, quick switch and kill stuff before logi catches it, etc). Not something we need atm imo.


Man, ofc you understand that my point was not only about EHP.
Maybe its about Logis endurance on grid, what do I know...

This is such a complex ecosystem that is difficult to find the right mix.
Im just stating that big engagements not fun for many.

I would like to see that if I am primary objective I have at least time to see how hull goes down


if you want to survive in 100 v 100 you better be in a T3, a battleship, or a Cap.

Otherwise, why not fight in small fleet sizes?

JUSTK is recruiting
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#13 - 2015-08-05 19:13:33 UTC
There's a guy Baltec1 who has been lobying for doubling T3 cruiser EHP for almost a year. He's got some great data. If you want help with raising ship EHP eve mail him and ask for his arguments for raising T3 EHP. I think several of his ideas transfer well to other ship lines. Probably worth chatting with him.