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Intergalactic Summit

 
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an open letter to jamyl sarum
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Arrendis
TK Corp
#21 - 2015-08-04 22:26:02 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
I'm sorry, but slavery is not ending.


Anyone told your Empress that?

Jamyl Sarum I wrote:
“Out there on the event horizon, a new age races toward us,” said the Empress in her announcement, “and it is approaching fast. The Lord in his infinite grace has instructed me that the chains that fetter us will no longer be necessary in this new age of light and reason, neither the chains of hatred that restrain our minds nor the chains of indenture that restrain those less fortunate than ourselves.”


Because at this point, it looks like the issue is when, not if.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#22 - 2015-08-04 22:41:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
It's always been when. That's the whole point of the Reclaiming. It ends, and the Circle is rejoined, and we become whole with God again.

Yeah, it will end eventually. But in a year? A hundred years? No. It'll end when all of humanity is serving under God and Amarr again.

So, I'll just repeat what Lord Mokk said: If you want that new age to come sooner rather than later, then the Republic and the Minmatar are going to need to accept God. But you're not willing to do that yet, so it's not ending.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2015-08-04 23:07:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Andreus Ixiris
Ronin, I would usually do this in private, but given conversations we've had in private already, I feel like I have to address this publicly.

You've asked me to command a reconaissance and research expedition to Drifter space in your name, and I have - as anyone who read the thread will know - accepted. One of the reasons I accepted, as I pointed out to you at the time, was that I am perhaps a better choice for the public face of this mission. While I am not precisely the most popular foreign capsuleer in the Empire, my public statements regarding that political entity have not caused loyalists to another country to refuse association with me.

Remember, however, that since the thread is started by you and this is a research expedition partially funded by Drake Ashigaru that your words and opinions are inexorably linked to the venture. Whatever statements you make inevitably reflect upon the expedition, and, by extension, upon me as its commander. I do not wish to cause you public embarassment but I've already been put in a difficult position by previous interactions between the expeditionary project and members of the New Eden capsuleer community - most notably IKAME has refused formal support in this endeavour because of your statements, which puts me at a massive disadvantage given that they're the people who currently know the most about the place we're supposed to be going.

I'm not even saying that you shouldn't say it; after all, I am, as a Federal loyalist, a firm believer in the concept of free and open speech. But I'm not looking at this from the perspective of an individual attempting to right the wrongs of the world. I'm looking at this from the perspective of a commander attempting to organise and execute a politically non-partisan expedition which will require considerable amounts of trust between all parties involved. Could you not at least have waited until after I finished running this gig?

This is not a statement of resignation or refusal, although if you feel that this statement makes me unsuited to command your venture, I will step down without complaint. However, I feel that if I am to remain in command of this project, it was neccessary for me to publicly indicate my discomfort with the appearance of these statements during a time in which - as you specifically make note of in your open letter - a threat possibly greater than the Empire is looming which the two of us are attempting to research.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#24 - 2015-08-04 23:39:31 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
It's always been when. That's the whole point of the Reclaiming. It ends, and the Circle is rejoined, and we become whole with God again.

Yeah, it will end eventually. But in a year? A hundred years? No. It'll end when all of humanity is serving under God and Amarr again.


Right now, it will end in roughly four centuries, no matter whether the shooting stops, or every free Matari in the cluster vows to personally shoot God in the head. Nine generations - unless your Empress's doctrinal decision is wrong...
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#25 - 2015-08-04 23:44:52 UTC
Her Imperial Majesty's decree was a one time affair; it does not dictate that every slave lineage is to be released on the 9th generation. It only released those who were 9th gen and above at the time it was announced.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#26 - 2015-08-04 23:52:22 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Her Imperial Majesty's decree was a one time affair; it does not dictate that every slave lineage is to be released on the 9th generation. It only released those who were 9th gen and above at the time it was announced.


That's certainly one interpretation - it differs from others referenced here in the Summit, of course...
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#27 - 2015-08-05 00:21:21 UTC
It's not an interpretation. It's fact. If you've heard otherwise from other people, it's because they misunderstood the nature of the decree.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#28 - 2015-08-05 00:26:15 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
It's not an interpretation. It's fact. If you've heard otherwise from other people, it's because they misunderstood the nature of the decree.


My apologies, Lieutenant. I shall accept your correction, then.
Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2015-08-05 00:41:04 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Sinjin Mokk wrote:
So ok. In the interests of "dialogue," how would this play out from your viewpoint?


How this plays out from my viewpoint? You mean, ideally, how we resolve this?

Emancipation.

The Empress has already said that the time for owning people is coming to an end. She announced that seven years ago, when she decreed that any slaves of 9th generation or above were freed. Which means in theory, in another 9 generations, the only slaves will be what every other civilized nation would call criminals sentenced to community service in the care of the state (small 's', not the Caldari).

Which begs the question: What's the moral difference between one person who was born into bondage and has known nothing else, and another one who's had one more set of ancestors enslaved? Clearly, the 'transition' is to make the change more politically palatable to the Holders, who stand to lose quite a lot of assets and free labor if their slaves are all suddenly freed.

Bite the bullet. Free them all. Then let them choose if they'll stay in the society and culture they know, the one most of them were raised in, as free men and women. Let them be accorded the basic human dignity of being able to choose for themselves how they best can contribute to society, and which society they'll be contributing to. As Lt. Kernher so effortlessly demonstrates, I suspect many - likely most will choose to be Matari Amarr. (As opposed to 'Ammatar', which they may also choose.)

Unless I have strongly misjudged individuals like Mizhara Del'thul, they might not be happy about our kin making that choice... but it's their choice, and if we respect them, we'll respect it, too.

That's the dialogue, in a nutshell: the Empire gets what it wants - the Matari back the heck off and stop shooting you, and the Matari get what they want - their relatives made free members of Amarr society. Because if 'the chains of indenture' will no longer be necessary, then you're going to have a hard time motivating people to shoot someone over populations saying 'I like my planet, and I believe in God' when they're free to choose not to believe, if they want.

If what the Empire wants is peace... then the easiest way to get it is to take all of those slaves and say 'here. Work for your own betterment' - because they will. Free societies outproduce slave societies. Give the slaves a stake in the fruits of their labors, and they'll make you wonder why you ever thought the was an economic danger to emancipation in the first place.

And then the Republic can take everything being funneled into shooting the Amarr, and redirect those funds, those people, to helping the displaced and helping them find their way, instead of being forced to short-change them and leave them adrift. Because being adrift, without Tribe, without Clan... that's not our way.

It's what she's already saying God wants. Why not do it?



There's another way of looking at what the Empress said.

She ordered the freedom of "Ninth Generation" slaves and stated that the time was drawing near, yes. But this is framed within the Empire, to the Matari. Meaning to me, that those of the 9th Gen had earned their freedom, that spiritual "upliftment" that I spoke of. And maybe it will take another nine generations for the rest of the Matari to achieve this, but that doesn't mean an abolition of slavery in and of itself. As you noted, this could mean criminals and prisoners of war. This isn't really pointed to abolition.

Keep in mind, that in the Kingdom, in Cartel space, in most of NullSec, slavery is still a profitable institution with no provision for "9th Gen" slaves. Indeed, outside of Amarr, slavery is practiced on everyone, regardless of origin.

So "abolition" within the Empire may occur eventually. But do you want to wait? It may end for the Matari specifically, but become open to any transgressors.

The Republic rhetoric is very specifically aimed at Amarr slavery, but they let the Cartel run rampant through the Republic with only a token amount of control and few "rescue" missions are aimed at them. The Republic never mentions the Bloodraiders, the Guritas or other NullSec organizations that practice slavery. No, they are just trying to build their failed attempt at a working government and all their other woes on us, because history makes it convenient.

So I think full emancipation isn't really going to work (It would be curious to see statistics on how many 9th Gen made a beeline for the Republic and how many stayed on as Amarr citizens).

I think those Matari in Amarr are pretty much not going anywhere, anytime soon. Who knows? The Empress might decide to emancipate other generations. She might not.

Perhaps, if we can stop our pendulum war, we can agree to and end of raids on both sides. We stop "reclamation" missions and you stop "rescue" missions? It's a thought.

But as was said, slavery isn't going to end.

"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."
Aeon Amadii
#30 - 2015-08-05 01:04:29 UTC
Intriguing.

In all the contracts I've taken for the Amarr Empire - mostly with which to accumulate Imperial armaments - I never quite noticed how condescending and arrogant they are. In the one hand they state that slavery is a means of showing the Matari the light, as it were, enlightening them to God almighty. Yet, as we may well know, the best way to convince someone of something swell is to offer it as a gift - a reward, so to speak... rather than to force it upon them and incite rebellion.

I mean, clearly it's worked so well so far, right? What's that they used to say about insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and over again expecting a different result...?

(This character is the Eve version of Aeon Amadi since there is no cross-forum support)

Member of CPM 2
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#31 - 2015-08-05 01:59:17 UTC
Aeon Amadii wrote:
Intriguing.

In all the contracts I've taken for the Amarr Empire - mostly with which to accumulate Imperial armaments - I never quite noticed how condescending and arrogant they are. In the one hand they state that slavery is a means of showing the Matari the light, as it were, enlightening them to God almighty. Yet, as we may well know, the best way to convince someone of something swell is to offer it as a gift - a reward, so to speak... rather than to force it upon them and incite rebellion.

I mean, clearly it's worked so well so far, right? What's that they used to say about insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and over again expecting a different result...?


I'm afraid you misunderstand the purpose of slavery in the context of the Amarrian religion. It hasn't anything to do about convincing anyone of anything. Spiritually, it's about breaking down of a person to their very core so that they can be rebuilt and made whole by the grace of God.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#32 - 2015-08-05 08:07:53 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
Slavery is not going to end. Either the Republic learns to deal with that fact and return to the ceasefire we had for a century under CONCORD, or we stay at war.

As for the new threat? If the Republic doesn't want to assist, then they can stay away. Just know that when the drifters come to you, we'll show you the same courtesy.

What is given to the Empire shall be given back.


What was taken by the Empire will be paid for.

Slavery in the Empire may never end, but as long as there is a cloning station in New Eden there will be no shortages of harm coming to the Empire as a result. Sooner or later even the Empire will realize it's far too costly compared to simply releasing our kin.


I understand the concept, Mizhara. Well, let's be really honest here, I've USED the concept before against OUR over-prideful, over-blown and, above all, over-stretched overlord, the Federation.

But the thing is that the cost of the damage that you're doing to the Empire isn't greater than the cost of immediately and total abolition - it can't ever be. Also, Jamyl Sarum is probably the person in New Eden who has freed the most slaves EVER - finding out why she did that and when she'll do it again is way more important than hit and run attacks, in my opinion.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Haruchai Khan
Doomheim
#33 - 2015-08-05 08:45:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Haruchai Khan
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
But the thing is that the cost of the damage that you're doing to the Empire isn't greater than the cost of immediately and total abolition - it can't ever be. Also, Jamyl Sarum is probably the person in New Eden who has freed the most slaves EVER - finding out why she did that and when she'll do it again is way more important than hit and run attacks, in my opinion.


An interesting viewpoint, and I think, a most valuable contribution. I do admire Caldari pragmatism. We Matari could learn much to help temper our natural romanticism. Practicality rarely fires the blood of warrior-poets.

Pragmatism seems to be a trait beyond ultra-religionists as well, especially recent converts. Nonetheless, the Empress and many other leaders in the Empire appear to have understood that the days of imperial hegemony, backed by an overwhelming military superiority, have long passed into history. Reclamation in the military sense is defeated. Reformation is coming and will make the Amarr noble once again.

Of course this is too slow for the Matari peoples. It is too fast for the Amarrian peoples. There will be recidivists on all sides, unwilling to accept the future and its changes, as they refuse the present reality. The curse of politics - particularly the 'behind the scenes' variety - is that everyone hates the politicians for making the compromises necessary, and that they want, but cannot admit to wanting.

I find it interesting that the foremost pillar supporting a free Minmatar is Gallentean strength and friendship, whereas the keystone of hope for a peaceful and resurgent Amarr is the pragmatic self-interest and economic competence of their Caldari State allies. We have so much to learn from each other - yet most of us steadfastly refuse to recognise that learning must be done.

Total and immediate abolition is simply impractical for both the Empire and the Republic, unless the economic structures are put in place to enable those Matari now enslaved to freely participate in Empire affairs - especially in regard to the practise of their religion. The State would be very well placed to help develop these economic institutions - although one suspects that at present, Amarr's economic weaknesses suit Caldari corporate profitability rather well.

The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#34 - 2015-08-05 09:14:11 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I understand the concept, Mizhara. Well, let's be really honest here, I've USED the concept before against OUR over-prideful, over-blown and, above all, over-stretched overlord, the Federation.

But the thing is that the cost of the damage that you're doing to the Empire isn't greater than the cost of immediately and total abolition - it can't ever be. Also, Jamyl Sarum is probably the person in New Eden who has freed the most slaves EVER - finding out why she did that and when she'll do it again is way more important than hit and run attacks, in my opinion.


It's an old argument that's been had here for a very long time, and unfortunately it's not going to have a conclusion any time soon. Of course the Empire can't release all Matari slaves at once. It'd be ruinous for their economy and their culture. This doesn't really change the fact that we can't stop fighting for it, because to do so would be pure and simple abandonment of our people. While there is even one of them left that yearns for something other than subjugation, abandoning them would be a horrifying crime.

I will keep fighting because it is the only alternative. Surrender and abandonment is not an option. Giving even an inch is tacit approval and that is simply unacceptable.

As little kin here demonstrates quite eloquently, talking will not change anything. When their position is arrived at not through reason or logic, but blind faith, it is not a position that can be changed through reason or logic. Our people will never be freed through such means, so we are bound to a single course. Free them ourselves, one at a time. Two at a time. Sometimes a thousand, sometimes a million.

Because even one makes it worth it.
Cain Aloga
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#35 - 2015-08-05 11:53:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Cain Aloga
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:


I understand the concept, Mizhara. Well, let's be really honest here, I've USED the concept before against OUR over-prideful, over-blown and, above all, over-stretched overlord, the Federation.

But the thing is that the cost of the damage that you're doing to the Empire isn't greater than the cost of immediately and total abolition - it can't ever be. Also, Jamyl Sarum is probably the person in New Eden who has freed the most slaves EVER - finding out why she did that and when she'll do it again is way more important than hit and run attacks, in my opinion.


Haruchai Khan wrote:

An interesting viewpoint, and I think, a most valuable contribution. I do admire Caldari pragmatism. We Matari could learn much to help temper our natural romanticism. Practicality rarely fires the blood of warrior-poets.

......

I find it interesting that the foremost pillar supporting a free Minmatar is Gallentean strength and friendship, whereas the keystone of hope for a peaceful and resurgent Amarr is the pragmatic self-interest and economic competence of their Caldari State allies. We have so much to learn from each other - yet most of us steadfastly refuse to recognise that learning must be done.


I have long held the belief that the Caldari people would make natural friends and allies of the Matari. The details maybe different but our struggles seem to be strikingly similar, however fate saw fit to place us opposite each other.

Haruchai Khan wrote:
Total and immediate abolition is simply impractical for both the Empire and the Republic, unless the economic structures are put in place to enable those Matari now enslaved to freely participate in Empire affairs - especially in regard to the practise of their religion. The State would be very well placed to help develop these economic institutions - although one suspects that at present, Amarr's economic weaknesses suit Caldari corporate profitability rather well.


While true, I am less concerned with the impact that immediate emancipation would have on the empire as I am with the impact it would have on the Republic. It is of course the Matari Dream to see our brothers and sisters freed and returned to us. Our fiercest fighters work towards this goal everyday. However we must take a step back and borrow some of that Caldari pragmatism that you speak of cousin.

As it stands, The Republic does not have the infrastructure nor a strong enough economy to successfully accept a large number of freed Matari. Such an influx of people would strain Republic resources to the breaking point, leaving thousands, if not millions of Matari stranded in n poverty, in a society that they do not know. The Decree made by the empress years back is a prime example of what I speak. Not being able to accept our endentured kin and embrace them as they return to us would be a great dishonor on ourselves, and a great disservice to them.

It is this inadequacy that I wish to address with my efforts. While our warriors work on freeing our kin, I shall, with the help of all those willing, work on being able to recieve them.

While our warriors fight for our people's freedom, we in turn should fight for our people's prosperity.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#36 - 2015-08-05 16:07:16 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Her Imperial Majesty's decree was a one time affair; it does not dictate that every slave lineage is to be released on the 9th generation. It only released those who were 9th gen and above at the time it was announced.


It also referred only to Minmatar slaves. It did not include Ealurians, for example.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Louella Dougans
Sovereign Hospitaller Order of Saint Katherine
#37 - 2015-08-05 19:01:46 UTC
What people don't seem to remember, is that Amarr Holders generally live quite a long time.

The Minmatar Rebellion was only just over 200 years ago.

Many of the Holders who were around then, are still around now.

For many Minmatar people, the Rebellion is something they only read about in history books, and have no living relatives who experienced it.

For many Holders, the Rebellion was something they actually experienced at the time.


So, expecting more change now, is unlikely. Maybe in another few decades.

But further change is unlikely right now.

Be a Space Nun, it is fun. \o/
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#38 - 2015-08-05 20:29:06 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Aeon Amadii wrote:
Intriguing.

In all the contracts I've taken for the Amarr Empire - mostly with which to accumulate Imperial armaments - I never quite noticed how condescending and arrogant they are. In the one hand they state that slavery is a means of showing the Matari the light, as it were, enlightening them to God almighty. Yet, as we may well know, the best way to convince someone of something swell is to offer it as a gift - a reward, so to speak... rather than to force it upon them and incite rebellion.

I mean, clearly it's worked so well so far, right? What's that they used to say about insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and over again expecting a different result...?


I'm afraid you misunderstand the purpose of slavery in the context of the Amarrian religion. It hasn't anything to do about convincing anyone of anything. Spiritually, it's about breaking down of a person to their very core so that they can be rebuilt and made whole by the grace of God.


That is often the case mostly for early generations... But their offspring is just educated in the amarr fashion.
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#39 - 2015-08-05 21:29:58 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Aeon Amadii wrote:
Intriguing.

In all the contracts I've taken for the Amarr Empire - mostly with which to accumulate Imperial armaments - I never quite noticed how condescending and arrogant they are. In the one hand they state that slavery is a means of showing the Matari the light, as it were, enlightening them to God almighty. Yet, as we may well know, the best way to convince someone of something swell is to offer it as a gift - a reward, so to speak... rather than to force it upon them and incite rebellion.

I mean, clearly it's worked so well so far, right? What's that they used to say about insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and over again expecting a different result...?


I'm afraid you misunderstand the purpose of slavery in the context of the Amarrian religion. It hasn't anything to do about convincing anyone of anything. Spiritually, it's about breaking down of a person to their very core so that they can be rebuilt and made whole by the grace of God.


That is often the case mostly for early generations... But their offspring is just educated in the amarr fashion.


Indeed, and a fair criticism if I may say so when framed in theological context of the Amarrian Faith as opposed to the way the Amarrian Faith is actually being practiced. If slavery is indeed supposed to be something more than mere forced labor and subjugation of 'inferior races', as The Scriptures would imply, then it would stand to reason it loses it's purpose when used out of context.

I believe there is a certain spirituality that can be found in adversity and struggle. The Caldari would not be who they are today if it wasn't for the spiritual forge of our ancestral homeworld; I wouldn't be either had it not been for the cultural upbringing my father instilled in me. If one is looking for God, or some sort of spirituality, I've found it be true it to be true that such a discovery comes during your hardest struggles.

That struggle however, can't be meaningless, and it can't be without understanding from the person going through it.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#40 - 2015-08-05 22:29:42 UTC
Pilot Ronin attempting to bargain with the stiff-necked slavers is an exercise in futility. They have no desire or incentive to come to the negotiation table in good faith. Slavery is an ingrained part of their theology, philosophy and culture and thus, they will never freely give it up.

Sadly, the only thing that will change Amarrians is violence. Violence in large doses.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.