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Why Eve is Failing and will "die off" with in 3 years

First post
Author
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#41 - 2015-08-04 16:30:59 UTC
OP has it all wrong, limiting corp size will do nothing and aggression in highsec is a much needed element to keep this game alive.

Blue donut is one of the biggest issues but you can't make it go away no matter what you do.

Malcanis law will get you every time.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#42 - 2015-08-04 16:35:22 UTC
Wasn't hyper dunking an inventive idea? Pipebombing? Refitting during combat?

A key assumption of yours is that invention cannot happen during conflict, yet that is not the case. Conflict leads to invention and can drive content.

Think of the new T3 dessies. They opened a whole new area of production and yet their purpose is combat, which also drives the demand for supplies.

As for group size... Think of RvB. We are one of the largest hi sec groups. We burn through how many kills per day? 300? 400? More on good days? That's how many damage control 2a? How many hulls? How much trit? If you limit wars and corp size, who consumes all that? Do you want NPC buy orders to cover it resulting in the destruction of one of the largest player run economies?

Your assumptions on game design focus on a narrow field of successes that Do not correlate well to EVE. The truth is, EVE lies outside the normal model of traditional games. It is closer to a reworld environment, and sadly, war is beneficial to industrialists in such scenarios.
Aminari Talar
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#43 - 2015-08-04 16:35:43 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
OP has it all wrong, limiting corp size will do nothing and aggression in highsec is a much needed element to keep this game alive.

Blue donut is one of the biggest issues but you can't make it go away no matter what you do.

Malcanis law will get you every time.



That is like saying that no problem has a solution.
You can make it go away, by making it not worth the time of people to do it.
The best way to do that is to remove the ability to distinguish in any reasonable fashion who is an enemy and who is not (out side of the 3 blues you get).

This make people stop blobbing, there is no work about for it.

If you get allies to attack at another time, you reduce the blobbing size, but increase the frequency. - Success, Because you reduced blobbing.

If you get allies to attack at the same time that are not blue, you cause neutrals to fight neutrals, to fight neutrals, to fight blues on the battlefield. Making blobbing ineffective.

If you continue to kill allies, people will get fed up and leave and make their own coalition. So the situation changes from
neut vs neut vs neut vs blue to

blue vs other blue vs other blue and so forth.

It will resolve the blobbing with out a doubt.

Additionally, Limiting the population sizes increases more coalitions, while yet smaller, will cause competition to be on a more equal footing (like it was originally in eve), Resulting in more life and death cycles in eve.

you will remove the super powers, and restore "skilled game play".


As for the rest of the stuff (like optional pvp, afk cloaking issues etc) those things help keep people happy (and happy people play the game longer).


Lastly,

Rarely anymore is statistics used in a unbiest way.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#44 - 2015-08-04 16:35:54 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
Blue donut is one of the biggest issues but you can't make it go away no matter what you do.

Mainly because it does not exist
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#45 - 2015-08-04 16:36:34 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Aminari Talar wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Before I bother reading any of the OP, is there anything new this time? ....Or is it the standard "eve is dying" thread im sure weve all memorized by now...






"I studied game design so my opinion carries more weight"




Is that like saying the uneducated are equal to the educated. If so i want to know what world you come from, and how we can make the uneducated of this world we live on more active in making break through like Steven hawking s etc.

I know lads with PhDs thicker than two short planks nailed together so no I don't believe that your education covers the fact that you are waffling out another eve is dying thread.

You beat me to it Ralph.
Plus, I'd pay good money to watch him tell a group of high school drop outs that they "aren't equal" to him. Big smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#46 - 2015-08-04 16:43:26 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:


A key assumption of yours is that invention cannot happen during conflict, yet that is not the case. Conflict leads to invention and can drive content.


That's what these "if you nerf aggression and bad people" types never understand. Trying to nerf away uncomfortable situations ends up doing nothing but nerfing creativity and fun. The ;bad guys' (whether gankers or blobbers or whatever it is people don't like) will simply adapt and (in fine Malcanis' law fashion) make some kind of profit from the changes.

Meanwhile those of us who didn't need any help from these 'save the game!' bleeding hearts end up going elsewhere because the game is no longer fun.
Lu Ziffer
Balanced Unity
Goonswarm Federation
#47 - 2015-08-04 16:43:42 UTC
Just here for commenting can not bother to read a wall of text .
And if you are a 2003 player pls post with your 2003 character which was not bought. Big smile
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#48 - 2015-08-04 16:50:24 UTC
I'd also be surprised if it took all of a couple of weeks before a 3rd party app. auto sorted corps with unofficial "blue" status for you instantly.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Aminari Talar
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#49 - 2015-08-04 16:51:33 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
You may be right, OP - at least on the possible "solutions". However, large scale coalitions are a big part of what makes Eve Eve. They have existed in this game for about 8 years or so. The possibility to form an empire and to fight gigantic space battles are pretty much the main unique characteristics of Eve.

Take those things away, and you have a different game. It's like saying, that you want to make a Metal Festival more appealing to the masses by playing pop music and banning moshpits. (Oh, wait - this is actually happening in places...)

So what you are suggesting is, to save Eve by killing Eve. Which makes me wonder - what's the point? Those who don't want to play Eve, don't have to play Eve, and if at some point nobody's there anymore who likes the game for what it is, it will be time to let it die and move on to something else.



That Might be true, and changing the system this way does not stop it. It makes its hard for it to be a few bodies involved. People can always pile up in this area in some way that is unorganized and still battle, but it prevents single entities or an entity that is a collection of such from controlling the power.

Eve is in a state that is similar to a new world order, which a few control the many and where the quality and success of lives of the many are dictated by the few
Aminari Talar
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#50 - 2015-08-04 16:53:17 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
I'd also be surprised if it took all of a couple of weeks before a 3rd party app. auto sorted corps with unofficial "blue" status for you instantly.



Wouldn't be possible because "sorting by corp and alliance" was one of the purposed removal (changes).

So it would have to sort by player name. Which would make any sort of third party app very heavy in larger groups (potentially anyways). Additionally Apps that work around the game and give unfair advantages are a violation of the EULA, and anyone created a third party work around would be subjective to bans etc.
Aminari Talar
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#51 - 2015-08-04 17:07:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Aminari Talar
Vincent Athena wrote:
The work around: Whenever you want another alliance to be blue, but cannot actually set it blue, you have the CEO of that alliance send you a member list. Every member of all the allied alliances keep a list of the pilots that are allies. Before shooting anyone, they manually check the pilot name against that list.

Alternatively, before shooting anyone, you get info on that pilot and see what alliance they are in, to see if they are on your manually kept blue list.

This is possible, but tiresome, to do manually. Hence your changes will not really change anything, just add busy work. In the far future we should have computers that are capable of doing this automatically.



It would not be possible. The whole system of "setting blue, red etc" would exit eve for a new system that offers

"hostile" "neutral" or "Friendly"

What "color" you are to them is dependent upon a relationship built up over months or destroyed over night (in massive battles).
This means, there would no longer exist "personal, Corporate or alliance standings" that are "instant set blue", and thus no work around.

As i said, you will have 3 (max) allies blue that you earned over time, but everything else would be either neutral or red (depending on how much you kill each other).

It would make distinguishing "neutral allies" Impossible by any legal means in eve.

From there a reduction of political bodies removes blobbing from the game (well, it makes blobs impossible for anything over say 500, and unlikely for anything over 200-250. Where as now, blobbing can happen in the thousands. What this does is make newer smaller alliances more competitive and closer in equal footing to older ones with the exception "Skill or skill points" added in (meainng people who focus on "quality" over "quantity" are going to be rewarded more; this give a huge amount of player "Recognition" by people knowing who truly are good in eve (not just the ones who pad their KB).
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#52 - 2015-08-04 17:08:04 UTC
Aminari Talar wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
I'd also be surprised if it took all of a couple of weeks before a 3rd party app. auto sorted corps with unofficial "blue" status for you instantly.



Wouldn't be possible because "sorting by corp and alliance" was one of the purposed removal (changes).

So it would have to sort by player name. Which would make any sort of third party app very heavy in larger groups (potentially anyways). Additionally Apps that work around the game and give unfair advantages are a violation of the EULA, and anyone created a third party work around would be subjective to bans etc.


Whaaat?? So the API is just an elaborate scam from CCP to ban all ebil players?

Jenna, how did we call very special friends again, you know the snowflake kind- oh right. Nevermind.


Keep going op, your problems are really entertaining.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#53 - 2015-08-04 17:08:48 UTC
Aminari Talar wrote:
Greetings,

I am a 2003 Player, and i have extensive knowledge of game design. I wanted to talk about why eve has a few years life span left on it, and what can be done to fit the game.


Interesting fact, "when" EvE dies in three years by your prediction, you'll have been playing a game you fundamentally don't like for 15 years. Wow buddy. Wow.
Aminari Talar
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#54 - 2015-08-04 17:10:51 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Aminari Talar wrote:
Greetings,

I am a 2003 Player, and i have extensive knowledge of game design. I wanted to talk about why eve has a few years life span left on it, and what can be done to fit the game.


Interesting fact, "when" EvE dies in three years by your prediction, you'll have been playing a game you fundamentally don't like for 15 years. Wow buddy. Wow.



I love eve. I just dont love some people in it, or the state it has gone to. There is a huge difference between hating people like goonies, alt-goonies etc, and hating eve.
Aminari Talar
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#55 - 2015-08-04 17:14:08 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Aminari Talar wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
I'd also be surprised if it took all of a couple of weeks before a 3rd party app. auto sorted corps with unofficial "blue" status for you instantly.



Wouldn't be possible because "sorting by corp and alliance" was one of the purposed removal (changes).

So it would have to sort by player name. Which would make any sort of third party app very heavy in larger groups (potentially anyways). Additionally Apps that work around the game and give unfair advantages are a violation of the EULA, and anyone created a third party work around would be subjective to bans etc.


Whaaat?? So the API is just an elaborate scam from CCP to ban all ebil players?

Jenna, how did we call very special friends again, you know the snowflake kind- oh right. Nevermind.


Keep going op, your problems are really entertaining.


CCP states

"the use of third party programs that give unfair advantages over other bodies is prohibited".

If someone codes a third party app that circumvents the normal process of eve, and with out a doubt (by my interpretation) would violate that said rule.

Additionally,

Any alterations to the GUI is a direct violation of the EULA, and so even if you coded such an app, you would subject massive amounts of people to ban for editing the GUI (Graphic user interface).

So There is no work around that is "legal" In eve.

If you managed to find a way to get around this, you are either 1) breaking the rules or 2) Hesitating a lot in your primary/secondary target calling that will cost you a buttload of isk and morale in the process.

Domino Vyse
FeedingMachine
War and Wormhole
#56 - 2015-08-04 17:15:57 UTC
Aminari Talar wrote:
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Aminari Talar wrote:
Greetings,

I am a 2003 Player, and i have extensive knowledge of game design. I wanted to talk about why eve has a few years life span left on it, and what can be done to fit the game.


Interesting fact, "when" EvE dies in three years by your prediction, you'll have been playing a game you fundamentally don't like for 15 years. Wow buddy. Wow.



I love eve. I just dont love some people in it, or the state it has gone to. There is a huge difference between hating people like goonies, alt-goonies etc, and hating eve.


So you want to eradicate all of the people you do not like? Hitler did that once.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#57 - 2015-08-04 17:16:15 UTC
Aminari Talar wrote:
Neuntausend wrote:
You may be right, OP - at least on the possible "solutions". However, large scale coalitions are a big part of what makes Eve Eve. They have existed in this game for about 8 years or so. The possibility to form an empire and to fight gigantic space battles are pretty much the main unique characteristics of Eve.

Take those things away, and you have a different game. It's like saying, that you want to make a Metal Festival more appealing to the masses by playing pop music and banning moshpits. (Oh, wait - this is actually happening in places...)

So what you are suggesting is, to save Eve by killing Eve. Which makes me wonder - what's the point? Those who don't want to play Eve, don't have to play Eve, and if at some point nobody's there anymore who likes the game for what it is, it will be time to let it die and move on to something else.



That Might be true, and changing the system this way does not stop it. It makes its hard for it to be a few bodies involved. People can always pile up in this area in some way that is unorganized and still battle, but it prevents single entities or an entity that is a collection of such from controlling the power.

Eve is in a state that is similar to a new world order, which a few control the many and where the quality and success of lives of the many are dictated by the few
\

It was here that we noticed the underlying ideological bs underpinning a bs idea.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#58 - 2015-08-04 17:19:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Aminari Talar wrote:
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Aminari Talar wrote:
Greetings,

I am a 2003 Player, and i have extensive knowledge of game design. I wanted to talk about why eve has a few years life span left on it, and what can be done to fit the game.


Interesting fact, "when" EvE dies in three years by your prediction, you'll have been playing a game you fundamentally don't like for 15 years. Wow buddy. Wow.



I love eve. I just dont love some people in it, or the state it has gone to. There is a huge difference between hating people like goonies, alt-goonies etc, and hating eve.


And it's here that we see the true motivation.

When a person can't deal with others they don't like, rather than fight (and risk losing), they try to "backdoor ban" those people. In EVE it's called 'metagaming'.

The idea isn't to help EVE, to help new players or small groups or even keep the game running. The idea is to underhandedly eliminate from the game people the OP finds undesirable. It's as insane as it is cowardly.
Zimmer Jones
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2015-08-04 17:26:47 UTC
Game design, maybe. Economics doubtful. A free to play eve would kill off the "micro transactions."
You claim that it would have no effect on plex, the micro transaction medium. Demand for plex is based entirely on play to pay, the ability to pay for your sub with isk. A sub someone else paid for in expectation of isk.

I have done quite a bit of game design, both computer and pen and paper. And im the space pope, so my opinion totally trumps everyone. Peace be unto you, you idea is heresy, repent and all is forgiven. (Waves symbolic rubber chicken in benediction)

Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.

Robert Sawyer
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#60 - 2015-08-04 17:33:46 UTC
Unlike all the other "EVE is dying" posts, this one was actually coherent and precise. Nice chart, by the way.
I can only agree with you that the harsh aspect of the game that the noob is exposed to from day one makes him leave. I had befriended 12 newbies from the beginning of July. All of them complained about ganks or scams and then made a rage-quit.

Regarding your corporate discussion, having two major power blocs that control the majority of the playerbase is bad, because if a new player were to join CFC (for example) and then have a change of heart, nobody would want to accept him anymore. The same applies for the other bloc.

"And when, at last, the moment is yours, that agony will become your greatest triumph."