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War Decs: It's time for them to go away.

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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#121 - 2015-08-04 13:49:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I said nothing of the sort, that's just your usual dishonest ranting.

I said they were intended to be used, and their use is to remove CONCORD. They are working precisely as intended.

Well, unless you're the kind of despicable carebear who hates player freedom, anyway.
And all I said is that they weren't intended for mass farming, which you are suggesting they are. The tears you will shed when they get changed will be epic.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Because, of course, only new players fly shuttles? Roll

I bet Lucas genuinely thinks that ships that take less than a month to train into should be immune to other players. Although based on his posting, I'm pretty sure he thinks PvP should not exist in highsec, that way he doesn't have to worry about all of his multiboxed miners.
Of course they don't, but a veteran in a shuttle isn't a challenge either. lol, look at you trying to make out you're not a carebear when you hide in highsec, fly disposable ships, team up on ships with no guns and explode into unfathomable rage when anyone suggests nerfing your playstyle.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#122 - 2015-08-04 13:52:34 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
And all I said is that they weren't intended for mass farming


That's not what you said, so that's yet another lie. I'm beginning to think you either can't help yourself anymore, or you have told too many to keep track of.

Next you'll tell me that you aren't a miner, despite posting that you "mostly mine" more than once in the past, and defending ISBoxer harder than literally anyone else in the game.


Quote:
Of course they don't, but a veteran in a shuttle isn't a challenge either.


I didn't say they were, but you were the one crying about how they are allowed to die.


Quote:
and explode into unfathomable rage when anyone suggests nerfing your playstyle.


No that's still you projecting again. Please see the ISBoxer thread for more of that.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2015-08-04 13:53:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Lucas Kell wrote:
47% of your killboard is made up of structures or ships incapable of returning fire, and no, that's not counting the 16% that are frigates.


I did state, quite clearly, that subjective validation does not make a point. Everyone has EASY kills on their kb. You're intentionally ignoring the fact that I frequently seek out challenges, as I knew you would. I don't believe you have the capacity to understand this, but I'll try to keep it simple for your simple mind: someone who is only looking for easy kills won't have any challenging ones on their KB at all. You can ignore them, but they're there. Hurricane killed with a solo Jaguar: check. Multiple battlecruisers and battleships killed with a solo Ishkur: check. Multiple gangs I've fought solo and both won and lost to: check. Oh, and then there's my losses. Engaging a Gila in a T3D to see if I can, but losing: check. Amongst many others.

Don't just sit there and pretend like you know something about people you don't like. You don't, you're forming your conclusions based on your dislike of them and nothing more, and that just makes you abhorrent. Not to mention wrong on every count about everything you say. Everything, bar nothing, all the time. Just wrong. Kell, if you want to prove something to me, you're gonna have to prove it with your actions and experience, and don't pretend like you're an industrial alt. I've seen your kb, so you're not just wrong, but you're a liar as well.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#124 - 2015-08-04 13:55:08 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:

Don't just sit there and pretend like you know something about people you don't like. You don't, you're forming your conclusions based on your dislike of them and nothing more, and that just makes you abhorrent.


Don't forget ignoring the heaping mounds of evidence that don't fit his preconceptions.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#125 - 2015-08-04 14:00:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Lucas Kell wrote:
You're the one claiming they intended it to be used to gank noobs, so how about you sort out some proof of that one.
Not really. He's claiming that they're intended to provide a method to attack other people in highsec. Noobs just so happen to be a subset of “other people in highsec” so it should not a surprise to anyone — least of all CCP — that they get caught in them.

Quote:
What game have you been playing? They primarily go after ships that take 8 days to train into, with a vast number of them going after shuttles, rookie ships and pods traveling through the pipes too.
EVE, where they primarily go after specialist mining and hauling ships that no newbie has any real use for.

Quote:
They reward more for farming large numbers of easy targets rather than for taking on challenging targets. Because of this, most wardec groups go after non-PvP groups quite heavily, specifically looking out for people recruiting miners, industrialists and the like. What this leads to is the current status quo where groups who aren't just other wardec groups either stay really small or operate with NPC alts.
Ehm… but wardecs don't reward anything. You're confusing means and ends here. There is no change to wars that will in any way change what you're describing, which hints at wars not being the problem to begin with.

Your red-frog example shows almost the exact opposite of what you're suggesting: not only does it demonstrate that wars aren't a problem — it suggests that NPC corps are the problem, since they provide a simple, free, unassailable, and universally available to any and all threats that a wardec might impose. No amount of changing wars will make the use of NPC haulers more expensive or easier to target, which means that there will never be any incentive not to use them. Taking care of your own security will always be a stupid option in comparison.

The only way for in-house security to be useful is if outsourcing to non-aligned alts was functionally impossible. You want red frog to run alliance-level support convoys? Then NPC corps have to go, or at least be prohibited to fly anything more advanced than a frigate. I suspect that this isn't what you're actually wishing for, but it demonstrates that wars are not the root of your perceived problem.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#126 - 2015-08-04 14:01:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
And all I said is that they weren't intended for mass farming
That's not what you said
Yes it is:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Key part of that: "as intended". I don't think they intended wardecs to be used to mass farm noobs and industrial ships with ease, nor to make decently sized non-wardec corps extinct in highsec.


Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Next you'll tell me that you aren't a miner, despite posting that you "mostly mine" more than once in the past, and defending ISBoxer harder than literally anyone else in the game.
I used to mine a lot, and still do occasionally but no, I'd not consider myself a miner these days. Believe it or not, people do change activities. When the ISBoxer changes cam out I was neither a miner nor an ISBoxer user. I won't go back into why you're wrong on what my problem with those changes was, because you seem so determined to ignore facts.


Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I didn't say they were, but you were the one crying about how they are allowed to die.
Lol, no I'm not. I don't care if they are allowed to die, but you're acting like what you do isn't being a carebear and claiming you deserve wardec mechanics to remain stupidly easy.

You're not as good at trolling as you used to be. What happened?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#127 - 2015-08-04 14:01:36 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:


Don't just sit there and pretend like you know something about people you don't like. You don't, you're forming your conclusions based on your dislike of them and nothing more, and that just makes you abhorrent.


This is the funniest thing, given who you are talking to. I seem to recall someone like that (I think his name rhymes with "Rucas Rell") excoriating me on the basis of "you know nothing about me just because of my posts!!" despite the fact that I can read English and thus could read his postings... but somehow that same poster knows all there is to know about both Kaarous and Remi based on 'internet things'.

One of the most wonderful things one will ever experience is a hypocrite outing himself.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2015-08-04 14:03:09 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
[...but you're acting like what you do isn't being a carebear...


That coming from a SpaceMonkey is irony incarnate.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#129 - 2015-08-04 14:06:12 UTC
Utara Ataru wrote:
Over the past 4 years I've watched an alarming trend in EVE. As the number of active null sec alliances has steadily dwindled under the onslaught of Nulli and the Goons, the number of high sec merc corps has slowly grown. During 2014, the HS Alliance that I was in was involved in 25 war decs totaling 38 weeks and during that period we lost 90% of our active player base. Some went to WH, some went to null, but most left the game altogether.

Now before you label me a "carebear" and flame me for the next 2 days, understand that I have characters in null sec and in WH's, what I am saying is that this trend is not good for CCP and for EVE. In order for this game to continue to thrive, CCP has to have a large player base that pays their money every month and that most certainly includes the HS indy players who love to mine and craft and who list most of the stuff sold in the major markets.

We all know that the hard core PvPr's of this and every other game are the most vocal when ANYTHING threatens their turf, but you guys have low sec / null sec / WH's / faction warfare, you need to stand down on this issue, let CCP end the broken HS war dec system and hope that some of these indy players come back so that their RL money can keep paying devs to fix other things in the game.

I am going to agree with you...

*gasp*

..but not without a price.

F

Would you like to know more?
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#130 - 2015-08-04 14:09:26 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I did state, quite clearly, that subjective validation does not make a point. Everyone has EASY kills on their kb. You're intentionally ignoring the fact that I frequently seek out challenges
I'm intentionally ignoring your stories and looking at facts. A huge chunk of your kills are definitely soft targets and who knows how many of the others fall into that category if we were there to see the context. Either way, It's wildly off topic.

So let me make it simple. You want to get rid of corp rolling. Corp rolling can only be used by tiny groups with no or very few assets. Therefore you want to be able to maintain wardecs with groups that are small with no or very few assets. From that alone I can declare you are looking for easy kill and that you should HTFU. Go after targets with no ability to or intention of corp rolling and you'll not see it happen.

Remiel Pollard wrote:
and don't pretend like you're an industrial alt. I've seen your kb, so you're not just wrong, but you're a liar as well.
Back when he was my only decent char, sure, he was more than that. Now that I have 16 active accounts and at least 10 characters with 60m+ skillpoints, his only focus is his main skills, which are reprocessing, industry and trade.

What was that you were saying about pretending to know things about people you don't like?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#131 - 2015-08-04 14:11:18 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
I'm intentionally ignoring... facts.


That's a keeper.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#132 - 2015-08-04 14:12:13 UTC
Wars are hilariously broken, no doubt about that. But doing away with them all together... absolutely not.

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Roz Eternal
Doomheim
#133 - 2015-08-04 14:12:15 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
I am going to agree with you...

*gasp*

..but not without a price.

F


Any old excuse to spam your blog Roll
Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#134 - 2015-08-04 14:15:05 UTC
Its funny, CCP has recently been hell bent on efforts to make eve more new player friendly for the very purpose of attracting and retaining new players. For instance CCP has removed can flipping, added a safety switch, and eliminated awoking (by adding yet another safety switch). At the same time instead of there being a great influx of new bros, there have been fewer and fewer people actually logging in. The problem of course comes from expectations. EVE is marketed by CCP has a hardcore open world pvp game. CCP actually has ads where it says something to the effect that by joining EVE you can "be the villain." Consequently, EVE has a reputation and it lived on this reputation for a decade, attracting a certain type of player. Now instead of embracing its reputation, CCP is trying to broaden EVE's appeal beyond its core players. But you cant shake off a decade's worth of reputation by a few tweaks here and there. So all CCP has done is **** off its core without reaching any significant numbers of newbros (at least in numbers that would offset the folk who have become bittervets and left the game).

So in short - elimination of war decs will not increase subs, but will instead **** off the old players as it will be rightly perceived as a further dumbing down of the game.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
James Cranakor
Perkone
Caldari State
#135 - 2015-08-04 14:15:20 UTC
I think that rather than removing wardecs altogether, some other mechanics need to be put in place. For example:

make it so that corps are able to opt out of the wardec system. But it means they cannot anchor or own POSes or POCOs in highsec, as otherwise these structures would become unkillable.

Or:

Make it so the corp can be wardecced, but combat is not sanctioned in that corps home system.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#136 - 2015-08-04 14:15:46 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Not really. He's claiming that they're intended to provide a method to attack other people in highsec. Noobs just so happen to be a subset of “other people in highsec” so it should not a surprise to anyone — least of all CCP — that they get caught in them.
Let's face it though, we all know how most wardeccers target selection works. They scour for the guys saying "recruiting miners for friendly industrial corp" and grin from ear to ear.

Tippia wrote:
EVE, where they primarily go after specialist mining and hauling ships that no newbie has any real use for.
Any proper veteran would be bright enough to be ungankable.

Tippia wrote:
Ehm… but wardecs don't reward anything.
They bloody well do. Or are you suggesting loot doesn't drop?

Tippia wrote:
Your red-frog example shows almost the exact opposite of what you're suggesting: not only does it demonstrate that wars aren't a problem — it suggests that NPC corps are the problem, since they provide a simple, free, unassailable, and universally available to any and all threats that a wardec might impose. No amount of changing wars will make the use of NPC haulers more expensive or easier to target, which means that there will never be any incentive not to use them. Taking care of your own security will always be a stupid option in comparison.
LOL. Red frog simply wouldn't exist is NPC corps didn't. The problem is that paying a tiny fee to be able to turn highsec into nullsec make entire classes of ship useless. Next to nobody flies freighters though nullsec because they are near impossible to defend.

Tippia wrote:
The only way for in-house security to be useful is if outsourcing to non-aligned alts was functionally impossible. You want red frog to run alliance-level support convoys? Then NPC corps have to go, or at least be prohibited to fly anything more advanced than a frigate. I suspect that this isn't what you're actually wishing for, but it demonstrates that wars are not the root of your perceived problem.
With wardec changed to be less "FARM EVERYTHING" and more reasonable, yes, I'd expect NPC corps to be heavily nerfed or removed. That doesn't mean NPC corps are the problem. NPC corps are simply the only reasonable solution to the badly designed wardec mechanics.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#137 - 2015-08-04 14:19:56 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
[...but you're acting like what you do isn't being a carebear...
That coming from a SpaceMonkey is irony incarnate.
Hardly. I don't claim to not be a carebear. I just find it endlessly amusing when people hiding in highsec with disposable ships try to claim superiority, when they are as carebear as it gets.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2015-08-04 14:20:20 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I did state, quite clearly, that subjective validation does not make a point. Everyone has EASY kills on their kb. You're intentionally ignoring the fact that I frequently seek out challenges
I'm intentionally ignoring your stories and looking at facts.


My stories are facts, and demonstrated on my KB. Just stop, you're embarrassing yourself.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#139 - 2015-08-04 14:23:08 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I did state, quite clearly, that subjective validation does not make a point. Everyone has EASY kills on their kb. You're intentionally ignoring the fact that I frequently seek out challenges
I'm intentionally ignoring your stories and looking at facts.
My stories are facts, and demonstrated on my KB. Just stop, you're embarrassing yourself.
No, your stories are stories. The facts are things like: 47% of your kills couldn't fight back. You saying "but this one time, at band camp, I took on 5 guys" is completely meaningless (and gross, I hope you washed).

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#140 - 2015-08-04 14:24:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:
Its funny, CCP has recently been hell bent on efforts to make eve more new player friendly for the very purpose of attracting and retaining new players. For instance CCP has removed can flipping, added a safety switch, and eliminated awoking (by adding yet another safety switch). At the same time instead of there being a great influx of new bros, there have been fewer and fewer people actually logging in. The problem of course comes from expectations. EVE is marketed by CCP has a hardcore open world pvp game. CCP actually has ads where it says something to the effect that by joining EVE you can "be the villain." Consequently, EVE has a reputation and it lived on this reputation for a decade, attracting a certain type of player. Now instead of embracing its reputation, CCP is trying to broaden EVE's appeal beyond its core players. But you cant shake off a decade's worth of reputation by a few tweaks here and there. So all CCP has done is **** off its core without reaching any significant numbers of newbros (at least in numbers that would offset the folk who have become bittervets and left the game).

So in short - elimination of war decs will not increase subs, but will instead **** off the old players as it will be rightly perceived as a further dumbing down of the game.


This is said perfectly.

I don't care anything about war decs per se (in fact, the idea behind war decs is flawed given that there is nothing really worth fighting over in high sec to begin with as almost all the important things are NPC controlled), the idea that 'more safety = more players is even dumber.

It just doesn't work that way, people generally don't play games like EVE for comfort, they play for a variety of reasons including 'challenge' (also, people don't know themselves, they think they want comfort but when given comfort they get bored). Making people more comfortable or safe has the opposite effect of what they intend. like you point out, the safer EVE has gotten, the smaller it's population has become.

This is because rather than helping these poor 'victim-like' players who claim that 'if it weren't for these bad things or lame people, I would stay and do great things' (which is a self serving lie), what really happens is that all the new safety stuff actually NERFS the gamers who come here wanting a deep, meaningful experience full of epicness and challenge.


In other words (and as you already pointed out), every time CCP tries to 'buff' new players and casuals and 'broaden it's appeal to a wider playerbase' all they end up doing is screwing up the game for the types of people who do like it or would actually like it if they just discovered it.