These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

War Decs: It's time for them to go away.

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#21 - 2015-08-03 22:51:24 UTC
Utara Ataru wrote:
IF CCP doesn't address this issue, the unemployment rate in Iceland will go up very soon and new content changes within EVE will grind to a halt, I've seen it happen again and again in other games.


"Gais, gais! The thing that I don't like is KILLING the game! Only by removing the thing I don't like can you save it!"

Roll

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#22 - 2015-08-03 22:58:03 UTC
and now you just done got your thread reported...

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#23 - 2015-08-03 22:58:45 UTC
Utara Ataru wrote:
Tippia, that statement assumes that the vast majority of EVE players are here solely for the PvP and that simply is not true.
No, it assumes that the vast majority of EVE players are here because they like EVE. If they don't like EVE, why should EVE cater to them?

Quote:
But we're really not talking PvP here, we're talking major PvP corps/alliances who routinely have 100 active war decs and who demand 200 million isk or more to drop the war dec. They've done the math, they know most will pay and they make a hefty return on their 50 million isk investment.
So? What's the problem?

Quote:
As for HS war decs against indy corps being classified as PvP, there is no honor or glory in killing a mac with a faction cruiser.
Luckily, honor or glory have nothing to do with classifying something as PvP, nor are they in any way relevant for… well… anything, really.

Quote:
Take a tour of high sec, systems that used to have 20 to 70 players in them now have 6 or less players.
Good. That means that more space has been made relevant and that people can distribute themselves according to their wishes rather than according to some arbitrary and artificial constraints in what's available in a select few systems.

Quote:
IF CCP doesn't address this issue
What issue?
Avvy
Doomheim
#24 - 2015-08-03 22:59:28 UTC
They should just turn high-sec and low-sec into null just without the sov mechanics. No need for the wardec mechanics then.
Kiandoshia
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2015-08-03 23:06:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiandoshia
Getting rid of them entirely is probably a little drastic. Making it less of a kill farm and more a meaningful kind of thing that makes sense would probably make sense and be nice. They could fix the bounty system again while they're at it.

Then again, highsec wardecs and the very PvFineprint situation they entail are what's making me keep and extra account and I am willing to bet that anyone who does any kind of sizeable 0.0 logistics work has highsec alts to avoid having to hassle themselves with a stupid system.

So I am guessing that everyone who couldn't be bothered to deal with it and left the game has since been replaced by at least one convenience alt =p
Avvy
Doomheim
#26 - 2015-08-03 23:13:38 UTC
Kiandoshia wrote:

Then again, highsec wardecs and the very PvFineprint situation they entail are what's making me keep and extra account and I am willing to bet that anyone who does any kind of sizeable 0.0 logistics work has highsec alts to avoid having to hassle themselves with a stupid system.



So are you saying if I go to null (only character) that I would not be able to keep this character going, or put another way not earn enough to replace the loses?

Hopefully I read that wrong.
Kiandoshia
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2015-08-03 23:18:39 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Kiandoshia wrote:

Then again, highsec wardecs and the very PvFineprint situation they entail are what's making me keep and extra account and I am willing to bet that anyone who does any kind of sizeable 0.0 logistics work has highsec alts to avoid having to hassle themselves with a stupid system.



So are you saying if I go to null (only character) that I would not be able to keep this character going, or put another way not earn enough to replace the loses?

Hopefully I read that wrong.


I mean logistics alts. Freighters, not Scimitars.
HeXxploiT
Doomheim
#28 - 2015-08-03 23:27:24 UTC
There is nothing wrong with wardecs in their current form. There are multiple levels of safety in the game and for those who want to play it safe there are npc corps. The mechanics are there and they are just fine you just don't want to use them.

As always it's risk vs reward.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#29 - 2015-08-03 23:27:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Utara Ataru wrote:
Over the past 4 years I've watched an alarming trend in EVE. As the number of active null sec alliances has steadily dwindled under the onslaught of Nulli and the Goons, the number of high sec merc corps has slowly grown. During 2014, the HS Alliance that I was in was involved in 25 war decs totaling 38 weeks and during that period we lost 90% of our active player base. Some went to WH, some went to null, but most left the game altogether.
Grr Goons detected.

Without wardecs or the mechanics being more limited than they already are. Hisec becomes a licence to print Isk, devaluing everything. CCP themselves considered wardecs to be underutilised when they changed the relevant mechanics in 2012, this should tell you something.

Wardecs on an individual level now cost more than they ever have, and people on the receiving end of a wardec have multiple options available to them to deal with it.

Quote:
Now before you label me a "carebear" and flame me for the next 2 days, understand that I have characters in null sec and in WH's,
These things are not mutually exclusive Shocked Carebear is an attitude, not a play-style.

Quote:
what I am saying is that this trend is not good for CCP and for EVE. In order for this game to continue to thrive, CCP has to have a large player base that pays their money every month and that most certainly includes the HS indy players who love to mine and craft and who list most of the stuff sold in the major markets.
CCP needs the same thing it's had for the last decade, a dedicated player base that gives them money and wants to play the game they set out to make; chasing a hypothetical larger audience that want to play another game entirely is a fool's errand.

Quote:
We all know that the hard core PvPr's of this and every other game are the most vocal when ANYTHING threatens their turf, but you guys have low sec / null sec / WH's / faction warfare, you need to stand down on this issue, let CCP end the broken HS war dec system
Hisec is as much a spaceship PvP area as anywhere else in space, albeit with different mechanics. Wardecs are working as intended in terms of generating conflict and loss; amongst other things they allow for the culling of corps run by people who have no business doing so, and for non hisec groups to attack, often by proxy (mercs), their enemies supply lines and out of corp support in hisec.

Quote:
and hope that some of these indy players come back so that their RL money can keep paying devs to fix other things in the game.
PvP comes in myriad forms in Eve, pewpew and industry are just two of them; Eve is a game about conflict, it drives everything around you and no play-style is exempt from it.

A true industrialist in Eve sees war and other conflict as an opportunity, not a hindrance.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Giaus Felix
Doomheim
#30 - 2015-08-03 23:33:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Giaus Felix
Utara Ataru wrote:
Tippia, that statement assumes that the vast majority of EVE players are here solely for the PvP and that simply is not true. Having played a dozen or more MMO's, there are at least 7 major things to do in these games with PvP being one of them.
PvP is Player vs Player. With that in mind, please list the activities in Eve that don't require competing against other players for influence, resources, isk, etc.

I came for the spaceships, I stayed for the tears.
Niriel Greez
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2015-08-03 23:46:30 UTC
Utara Ataru wrote:
During that period we lost 90% of our active player base.Some went to WH, some went to null, but most left the game altogether.


Success right there.

Wardecs are probably one of the worst mechanics in this game and you already have it way too easy as it is, but until HS stops being a risk-free ISK faucet, gankbears and mercbears should keep slaughtering carebears.
Utara Ataru
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2015-08-03 23:46:41 UTC
Giaus Felix wrote:
PvP is Player vs Player. With that in mind, please list the activities in Eve that don't require competing against other players for influence, resources, isk, etc.[/quote]

The universally accepted definition of PvP involves direct combat with ships in EVE or avatars in other games. Pitting a faction cruiser against a mining barge is hardly a fair fight and as such, doesn't meet my definition of PvP. But back to your requested list in EVE: 1) Mining 2) manufacturing (which now requires a POS to be cost effective which requires a corp which can then be war dec'd, making the POS vulnerable to attack) 3) missions 4) incursions 5) explorations 6) empire building at the corp / alliance level and 7) pvp - where both sides have combat ships - in low / null / wh & war decs.
Avvy
Doomheim
#33 - 2015-08-03 23:55:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Utara Ataru wrote:
Giaus Felix wrote:

PvP is Player vs Player. With that in mind, please list the activities in Eve that don't require competing against other players for influence, resources, isk, etc.


The universally accepted definition of PvP involves direct combat with ships in EVE or avatars in other games. Pitting a faction cruiser against a mining barge is hardly a fair fight and as such, doesn't meet my definition of PvP. But back to your requested list in EVE: 1) Mining 2) manufacturing (which now requires a POS to be cost effective which requires a corp which can then be war dec'd, making the POS vulnerable to attack) 3) missions 4) incursions 5) explorations 6) empire building at the corp / alliance level and 7) pvp - where both sides have combat ships - in low / null / wh & war decs.



Not really, at least not these days.

Traditionally it was seen as combat.

But even traders engage in PvP when it's a player run market.
Kiandoshia
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2015-08-03 23:56:53 UTC
Niriel Greez wrote:
Utara Ataru wrote:
During that period we lost 90% of our active player base.Some went to WH, some went to null, but most left the game altogether.


Success right there.

Wardecs are probably one of the worst mechanics in this game and you already have it way too easy as it is, but until HS stops being a risk-free ISK faucet, gankbears and mercbears should keep slaughtering carebears.


I find it hard to disagree but I don't live in highsec, so my opinion is heavily biased.
Yockerbow
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2015-08-04 00:03:04 UTC
There's an easy way to avoid wardecs: NPC corps. This comes at the cost of taxes from ratting/missioning and no access to POS. The reward is wardec safety.

If you want the extra rewards from NPC jobs and the bonuses of POS industry, you have to take the risks as well. That's EVE.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#36 - 2015-08-04 00:21:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Utara Ataru wrote:
The universally accepted definition of PvP involves direct combat with ships in EVE or avatars in other games.
The universally accepted definition of PvP means you're competing against other players, as opposed to game constructs. Fairness is not a factor. Unless you're saying that either the faction cruiser or the mining barge in question is not controlled by a player, it would be pretty nonsensical (not to mention outright false) to not call it PvP.

All of the things you listed involve competition against other players, i.e. PvP (and as an added bonus, fairness is not a factor in any of them).
Giaus Felix
Doomheim
#37 - 2015-08-04 00:23:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Giaus Felix
Utara Ataru wrote:
Giaus Felix wrote:
PvP is Player vs Player. With that in mind, please list the activities in Eve that don't require competing against other players for influence, resources, isk, etc.


The universally accepted definition of PvP involves direct combat with ships in EVE or avatars in other games. Pitting a faction cruiser against a mining barge is hardly a fair fight and as such, doesn't meet my definition of PvP.
If it was universally accepted we wouldn't be having this conversation. Roll

PvP as an acronym is defined as Player vs Player. With regards to Eve your qualifiers are irrelevant, especially in light of CCP's own definition of PvP; just as with "griefing" their definition is the only one that counts.

With regards to fairness, a truly fair fight usually means one or both of the combatants made a tactical mistake.

CCP defines PvP thus:
CCP in the New Player FAQ (pg21) wrote:
INTRODUCTION
EVE Online is a game with an unparalleled level of choice available to its players. This level of choice can sometimes become overwhelming to those that are more used to the traditional MMO game model. The options presented later in this section are only a small selection of the activities and options that are available to you.

Players are not obligated to progress through these options in any specific order, or even progress through them at all. A player that enjoys exploration above and beyond other options can spend the majority of his time within New Eden pursuing that activity for months or years, completely disregarding industry and/or factional warfare as an example. Furthermore, as we mentioned previously, once you enter New Eden you must consider every action you take as a form of PvP since this is the core game concept. In the asteroid field you’re competing with other pilots to obtain resources; you may also have to defend against ore thieves. On the market you battle for control of the economy in certain areas; for the supply and demand of your products versus other aspiring tycoons. On the battlefield you may fight for glory, for money, or for the right to rule whole areas of space. As always in EVE, it’s your choice.
I've emphasized the relevant parts for you.


Utara Ataru wrote:
But back to your requested list in EVE: 1) Mining 2) manufacturing (which now requires a POS to be cost effective which requires a corp which can then be war dec'd, making the POS vulnerable to attack) 3) missions 4) incursions 5) explorations 6) empire building at the corp / alliance level and 7) pvp - where both sides have combat ships - in low / null / wh & war decs.
The first 5 more often than not involve the market, which in itself is PvP; now onto your list in more detail.

  1. Mining is PvP, you're competing with other players for raw materials.
  2. Manufacturing is PvP, you're competing with other players for sales or removing potential sales if for personal use.
  3. Missions are PvP, if you loot and salvage your haul is either used in manufacturing, recycled for raw materials or sold on the market to others. The LP that results from missions is exchanged for ships, modules and implants that are often sold on the market.
  4. Incursions are PvP, you're competing with other groups for the available payouts and LP, even more so if the site is being contested.
  5. Exploration is PvP, you're competing against other people for sites, recently there's been many a thread bemoaning the difficulty of finding decent highsec sites for example.
  6. Empire building is PvP, by its very definition. Empire building involves the acquisition of resources, territory, numbers and economic influence in order to expand your size, power, and wealth at the expense of others.

I came for the spaceships, I stayed for the tears.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#38 - 2015-08-04 00:41:59 UTC
Utara Ataru wrote:
Tippia, that statement assumes that the vast majority of EVE players are here solely for the PvP and that simply is not true. Having played a dozen or more MMO's, there are at least 7 major things to do in these games with PvP being one of them.
So which one of those games - which likely has pvp as just some silly afterthought - were you suggesting EVE become like? Is that WoW perhaps?
Utara Ataru wrote:
This is no small problem here folks and its getting worse. IF CCP doesn't address this issue, the unemployment rate in Iceland will go up very soon and new content changes within EVE will grind to a halt, I've seen it happen again and again in other games.
Which games? WoW perhaps? All the ragequitters due to not being able to mount some griffon on an expansion or something. You peddle fear and intimidation from behind your protected NPC corp.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2015-08-04 00:45:36 UTC
Utara Ataru wrote:
Now before you label me a "carebear" and flame me for the next 2 days, understand that I have characters in null sec and in WH's, ...


I've played in all of them, on this toon, and I have seen all kinds of risk aversion going on in all kinds of space. Wardecs aren't going anywhere. Maybe they need an overhaul, maybe I can be convinced of that with the right argument, but just because you spend time in low, nul, or wh, does not mean you're not a carebear.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#40 - 2015-08-04 00:47:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Omar Alharazaad
"The universally accepted definition of PvP involves direct combat with ships in EVE or avatars in other games. Pitting a faction cruiser against a mining barge is hardly a fair fight and as such, doesn't meet my definition of PvP. But back to your requested list in EVE: 1) Mining 2) manufacturing (which now requires a POS to be cost effective which requires a corp which can then be war dec'd, making the POS vulnerable to attack) 3) missions 4) incursions 5) explorations 6) empire building at the corp / alliance level and 7) pvp - where both sides have combat ships - in low / null / wh & war decs."


Interesting. You seem to have mistaken Player Versus Player for Player Violencing Player.
They're not the same thing. Also, pretty much everything on your list is PVP.
Fair fights rarely happen in EVE, usually due to accident or being prearranged for giggles.
Do not expect fairness, expect people to utilize the tools available to all of us to their very best advantage.

That being said, you have to also realize that High Sec wars are big business, especially in the mercenary community.
What you are proposing would put hundreds, if not thousands of bloodthirsty guns for hire out of work and close down a multi-billion ISK a month industry.

You can imagine that's not going to go over any better than suggesting wormholes are unnecessary and should be done away with.

I think you might have some adapting to do; try to find your fun within the confines of what is EVE, rather than trying to reshape EVE to fit your ideals... it'll hurt less.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.