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What was so important to hide in order to violate a Yulai codicil?
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Arrendis
TK Corp
#161 - 2015-07-31 04:46:22 UTC
Ahh, I see... so you don't read the clear undercurrent of 'FILTH! How dare you even try to imagine you could understand the workings of the Empress' mind? Look to your Scriptures and comport yourself correctly, woman, lest you give cause to Inquisitors to visit in the night.' in there?

Cuz, you know... it's there.
Honorius Vitellius
Exit-Strategy
Unchained Alliance
#162 - 2015-07-31 05:53:38 UTC
iyammarrok wrote:
I am told that in the past, Emperors have been removed from office.
If this is the case, then it is possible that they can be wrong, counter to some of the more virulent claims on this thread.
It is right to question one's leaders when they begin to act in a manner that is inconsistent with their stated goals, or when their actions become erratic.
It is prudent to question them should their actions be deemed counter to the greater good of those they lead.

However much the zealots may wish it otherwise, if an emperor or empress can be removed from office, they can be wrong.
if they can be wrong, and they are the voice of 'god'. then god can be wrong.

given that logic, I can understand their zeal and their claims that no matter the evidence to the contrary, their leader must, always, be right.
it's not correct, by any stretch, but I can understand why they would want to believe it.

As is often the case, discussions of this nature undertaken by those outside the faith, veer into troubled territory, marred by partial understandings of the nuances of the imperial tradition and the proper practice of theology. Much of the engagement I have seen in this discussion is mired in so much innate hostility for the Amarr people, that it is immune to logic. In the eyes of some, the worst will be found in any action undertaken by the Empire and its leaders in any event (and facts will be creatively reinterpreted to suit at will). In fact, one could question the wisdom of beginning this discussion before the current audience as opposed to another. Even though it is largely profitless, I will offer the following.

I would first take issue with some of the chains of logic employed here. My response will be cursory and will only briefly touch on matters of extreme difficulty.

First, in a time of war, what competent military command will embrace the public questioning of its leadership? None of the Empires would embrace this notion.

Now to the meat: If the current emperor/empress can be wrong, does that mean that God is fallible? No, it does not. Human beings live in time. They are changeable. Anything that is changeable is imperfect. All humans are imperfect.

The Empire is the extension of God’s community in the human sphere. As history clearly shows, it is changeable. God wishes His creatures to follow His revelation, as outlined in the Scriptures, to the best of their ability. As humans are imperfect, this realization is imperfect. Nonetheless, it is the will of God, that all human beings obey the throne of the Amarr Empire as God’s delegate before all of humanity. It is this obedience that is owed, not explanations. Obedience to God is to be cultivated before all other concerns, especially the human weakness of vanity here clearly on display in the recurrent demand that God’s nature and His ways should be easy to understand. As so often is the case, the Matari (and those of like mind) question, “Why is your God not like me?” The faithful must reply that it is on account of your broken humanity. As long as your humanity is distorted through continued estrangement from Him, everything fair will seem foul and blindness will seem like true sight.
Haruchai Khan
Doomheim
#163 - 2015-07-31 07:36:04 UTC
Honorius Vitellius wrote:
Much of the engagement I have seen in this discussion is mired in so much innate hostility for the Amarr people, that it is immune to logic. In the eyes of some, the worst will be found in any action undertaken by the Empire and its leaders in any event (and facts will be creatively reinterpreted to suit at will).


Honorius Vitellius wrote:
Nonetheless, it is the will of God, that all human beings obey the throne of the Amarr Empire as God’s delegate before all of humanity. It is this obedience that is owed, not explanations.


I am shocked, shocked, to find that you think there is concern/hostility to the military actions of the Empire.

I can't imagine why.

The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#164 - 2015-07-31 08:51:20 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Ahh, I see... so you don't read the clear undercurrent of 'FILTH! How dare you even try to imagine you could understand the workings of the Empress' mind? Look to your Scriptures and comport yourself correctly, woman, lest you give cause to Inquisitors to visit in the night.' in there?

Cuz, you know... it's there.


Just a quick question: Which woman are we talking about with a mind of filth? If you have her address I'll pop over and um...'chastise' her.

For the good of the Empire who's people share the same delusion of course.
iyammarrok
Drunken Beaver Mining
Gnawthority
#165 - 2015-07-31 08:57:32 UTC
Everyone, regardless of position or power, is accountable for their own actions.
Being a leader does not absolve one of guilt, in fact, it makes one more accountable, as you are also accountable for the actions performed in your name.

-Idama Tertianus Rethelior

Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#166 - 2015-07-31 09:51:57 UTC
It is pertinent to remember that ultimately, while power in the Empire is derived primarily from God, the overwhelmingly vast majority of actual decision making - some might venture to say as high as 100% of it, actually - is done by human beings. In the Empire, as with all large heirarchical groupings of human beings, there is a calculus of power. By law and tradition the Emperor is the chosen agent of the Divine on this plane of existence - they are essentially empowered to speak for God and their Word is Law.

Except that's not completely true. There are institutions in the Empire that have the power to deny the word of the Emperor - indeed, some of them have this ability by design, as a failsafe against problem cases such as Zaragram II. The Theology Council and the Speakers of Truth in particular have the power to invoke censure against an Emperor - but the problem is that that power is itself predicated upon the Empire's support for their legitimacy. It's not merely a question of whether they would choose to do so. While much is made of the concept of self-evident righteousness, a lot of Imperial politics is tied up in the charisma and force of will an individual possesses.

When Brother Joshua invoked censure against Heir Aritcio Kor-Azor for his various abuses of power, there was very little resistance to it, as he had little support from his subjects. But one must remember that Aritcio's actions were actually perfectly legal - the Heirs, are, after all, above such things as secular law. Likewise, Aritcio had not actually transgressed any religous law, either; the law that allowed his followers to cut him to pieces repeatedly was actually a right afforded to them to receive restitution for injury, which was not technically an invocation of punishment. No-one was going to stand up for Aritcio, as he'd made the terribly grave mistake of rendering himself unlikeable without also rendering himself untouchable. Ultimately, Aritcio was dismembered because the Speakers of Truth said he should be, and because no-one with the power to do so objected.

Could censure be invoked against Empress Jamyl, should sufficient cause be found to do so? Ultimately the answer would depend on the courage of the people with the power to do so, and that largely depends on how genuine they believe the devotion of her various subjects is. The Theology Council almost certainly has the power to declare Jamyl's claim to the throne illegitimate if they were presented with satisfactory evidence - but would they dare to do so? Could they leverage their authority sufficiently to overcome Sarum's supporters? And yet, how many of Sarum's supposedly devoted supporters would turn on a dime and abandon her if the Theology Council told them it was safe to do so?

I find it ironic that ultimately, the decision of who is the most devoted servant of God lies in the hands of a distinctly human bunch of people.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#167 - 2015-07-31 11:03:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Rodj Blake
Andreus Ixiris wrote:


When Brother Joshua invoked censure against Heir Aritcio Kor-Azor for his various abuses of power, there was very little resistance to it, as he had little support from his subjects. But one must remember that Aritcio's actions were actually perfectly legal - the Heirs, are, after all, above such things as secular law. Likewise, Aritcio had not actually transgressed any religous law, either; the law that allowed his followers to cut him to pieces repeatedly was actually a right afforded to them to receive restitution for injury, which was not technically an invocation of punishment. No-one was going to stand up for Aritcio, as he'd made the terribly grave mistake of rendering himself unlikeable without also rendering himself untouchable. Ultimately, Aritcio was dismembered because the Speakers of Truth said he should be, and because no-one with the power to do so objected.


You have to remember that many aspects of Imperial law are feudal in nature. Whilst the nobility have great power, they also have great responsibility towards those under them. In such a system the line between punishment and restitution can be blurred.

As someone who was there, I have to say that Brother Joshua would disagree with you over the legality of Lord Kor-Azor's actions.

Yes the punishments meted out to Lord Kor-Azor were in response to injuries inflicted by him, but those injuries were the result of illegal actions. Whilst I am not at liberty to divulge the specifics because elements of the case have never been entered into the public domain, Lord Kor-Azor was shown to have overstepped the bounds of his authority and inflicted egregious punishments on his subordinates and his vassals where no punishment was warranted on multiple occasions throughout his sphere of control.

Brother Joshua's final judgement was that Lord Kor-Azor should be punished through the means of restitution for each of his infractions. Whilst each individual punishment was minor, the cumulative effect was substantial.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Hevaima Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#168 - 2015-07-31 15:48:45 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Ahh, I see... so you don't read the clear undercurrent of 'FILTH! How dare you even try to imagine you could understand the workings of the Empress' mind? Look to your Scriptures and comport yourself correctly, woman, lest you give cause to Inquisitors to visit in the night.' in there?

Cuz, you know... it's there.


Did you know Nyx fuel can in fact melt tritanium alloy beams, Ms. Arrendis?
Arrendis
TK Corp
#169 - 2015-07-31 17:34:07 UTC
Hevaima Gesakaarin wrote:
Did you know Nyx fuel can in fact melt tritanium alloy beams, Ms. Arrendis?


That's it. Deflect. Dismiss. Never actually address the matter.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#170 - 2015-07-31 17:40:35 UTC
S**t like this is why we don't like the Amarr. Arrogance.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#171 - 2015-07-31 18:24:11 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
Yes the punishments meted out to Lord Kor-Azor were in response to injuries inflicted by him, but those injuries were the result of illegal actions.

Possibly true but ultimately meaningless, as the Heirs are explicitly outside the constraints of secular law. That's what mandated the intervention of a Speaker of Truth in the first place.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#172 - 2015-07-31 19:06:34 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
Yes the punishments meted out to Lord Kor-Azor were in response to injuries inflicted by him, but those injuries were the result of illegal actions.

Possibly true but ultimately meaningless, as the Heirs are explicitly outside the constraints of secular law. That's what mandated the intervention of a Speaker of Truth in the first place.


Again, you're failing to take into account the feudal nature of Amarrian civil society.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#173 - 2015-07-31 20:33:17 UTC
Hevaima Gesakaarin wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Hevaima Gesakaarin wrote:
Perhaps a better question to ask oneself might be: "If I do not have a seat on the Privy Council does the Empress have any obligation to answer my questions?"


Because seeking to understand the motivations of the 4th-largest power in space is irresponsible, right?


I would say attributing motivations to Her Imperial Majesty solely on the basis of conjecture as irresponsible, yes.

Likely as irresponsible as a member of the Amarrian faith to directly question in public an action of their Empress and demand that God's representative be held accountable to them. Then again I doubt Ms. Farel places much personal value in the Codes of Demeanour as outlined in the Scriptures or she would already know that the rule of the Empress is Benign and Righteous without need for her to ask questions of why for any action Her Imperial Majesty decides to undertake. The only outcome to be had in doing so is to instigate a discussion in which the actions of the Empress are cast into aspersion and spurious conjecture which I can only assume was Ms. Farel's intention.



Pardon me for asking, but who are you again, sir...?
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#174 - 2015-07-31 20:45:00 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
Yes the punishments meted out to Lord Kor-Azor were in response to injuries inflicted by him, but those injuries were the result of illegal actions.

Possibly true but ultimately meaningless, as the Heirs are explicitly outside the constraints of secular law. That's what mandated the intervention of a Speaker of Truth in the first place.


There is no real secular law in Amarr...
Hevaima Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#175 - 2015-07-31 22:53:30 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:

Pardon me for asking, but who are you again, sir...?


Much like yourself and others, a stranger expressing their personal thoughts and opinions on the Galnet communications platform known as the Intergalactic Summit: Where anyone can be a pundit and the points scored do not matter.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#176 - 2015-07-31 23:18:19 UTC
Hevaima Gesakaarin wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:

Pardon me for asking, but who are you again, sir...?


Much like yourself and others, a stranger expressing their personal thoughts and opinions on the Galnet communications platform known as the Intergalactic Summit: Where anyone can be a pundit and the points scored do not matter.

But the points do matter. I keep tally, and at the end of existence I will choose the person with the highest number of points to sit and judge the rest of the IGS with me.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Indira Harashani
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#177 - 2015-08-01 02:34:42 UTC
It seems to me that a number of people here have missed a very key bit of information. Namely, that within systems designated as high-security space, entities acting as authorized representatives of the sovereign owners of that space are permitted, at their discretion, to adjust the status (or "flag" in capsuleer parlance) of any capsuleer in their vicinity via the Crimewatch system.

This includes the ability to give a pilot a "Suspect" status, making them a legally-engageable target under the Crimewatch rules.

This is not the first time such an incident has occurred. It will not be the last. I seem to recall an incident in the Federation a few years back involving a number of FIO capsuleer representatives activating a Suspect flag on an entire fleet of capsuleers for refusing to stand down when they were asked to cease and desist in their escort and protection of a number of individuals belonging to some group that I believe was called Snipehunt. In that case, they were likely operating with the approval of President Roden.

Her Majesty was entirely within her CONCORD-established rights and privileges to delegate the capability to enable Suspect flagging on Mentor Raish's vessel and person to her Imperial Navy escort, and that escort, in turn, was within their rights and privileges to carry through with the task delegated to them.

Mentor Raish invoking this "ninth codicil" did not explicitly invalidate those rights and privileges granted to the Empress and her escort.

Furthermore, it was requested, and then later demanded, that he cease his scanning numerous times. If he had ceased before completing his scans, it is entirely likely that he and his crew would have been permitted to leave. It was after he had refused those requests and stalled long enough to finish his scans that the order to eliminate him was given.

This is no different to someone walking up to a military base, and taking scans, pictures or other recordings of the facilities, and then when asked to stop by the base personnel, refusing to do so and then attempting to flee the scene when they are done rather than simply stopping as requested.

As to the comments regarding the Empress' Avatar-class titan being scanned by other capsuleers and them receiving no response... the cargohold and ship-scanning equipment that we have access to is hardly invasive. Most ship's systems are invisible to those scans; the only information one is likely to glean from those are the contents of the cargohold, capacitor status, and a smattering of standardized equipment 'modules' connected to the vessel's computing and power grids. Whatever Mentor Raish had and was using - be it an Entosis Link or something else - was clearly far more invasive than either of those scanning suites could ever be.

Considering Carthum Conglomerate's involvement in the Link's development, and the connections to Carthum that the Empress' had through her family prior to her ascension to the throne, I would be unsurprised to learn if there is more to those modules than we are aware of, that she, the Imperial Navy, and other parties that may include the SOCT, are.

Which would give further justification to such a scan being considered hostile, whereas the numerous independent capsuleers buzzing about like flies were not.

Lady Indira Harashani

Holder of the Kheryskova Archipelago, Kihtaled IV
Arrendis
TK Corp
#178 - 2015-08-01 02:52:02 UTC
Indira Harashani wrote:

Her Majesty was entirely within her CONCORD-established rights and privileges to delegate the capability to enable Suspect flagging on Mentor Raish's vessel and person to her Imperial Navy escort, and that escort, in turn, was within their rights and privileges to carry through with the task delegated to them.


As stated before: we all know she had the right to do it: she had the biggest guns. And that's all that the various Navies and CONCORD itself represent: the biggest guns. Don't claim some words on a page someplace make a damned bit of difference in the final calculation of 'who gets to do what'. The only difference they make is they can be used to rally others to your cause, giving you more guns than the other guy.

Indira Harashani wrote:

Furthermore, it was requested, and then later demanded, that he cease his scanning numerous times. If he had ceased before completing his scans, it is entirely likely that he and his crew would have been permitted to leave. It was after he had refused those requests and stalled long enough to finish his scans that the order to eliminate him was given.


Actually, he had already completed his scans when the last demand came. He'd already stopped. He was already moving off. And your analogy's terribly flawed.

Indira Harashani wrote:

This is no different to someone walking up to a military base, and taking scans, pictures or other recordings of the facilities, and then when asked to stop by the base personnel, refusing to do so and then attempting to flee the scene when they are done rather than simply stopping as requested.


In this instance, the person at the military base would have had the scans, pictures, or recordings confiscated, regardless of whether or not they stopped. If the 'base personnel' had told the person to leave, and then shot that person when they went to leave, they'd still get asked why the hell they did that.

Indira Harashani wrote:

Which would give further justification to such a scan being considered hostile, whereas the numerous independent capsuleers buzzing about like flies were not.


If that's true, then it would make distributing Entosis Links, if the Empress and Imperial Navy know something about what Entosis Links can do to titans that other groups do not, then congratulations, you've just made a case for suspicion that the Amarr Empress is saturating the space of every other power in the cluster with potentially dangerous equipment, possibly with an intent toward providing sleeper cells with the means to disable the most powerful assets of her rivals.

Yep. You're really helping her case here.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#179 - 2015-08-01 08:29:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
Hevaima Gesakaarin wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:

Pardon me for asking, but who are you again, sir...?


Much like yourself and others, a stranger expressing their personal thoughts and opinions on the Galnet communications platform known as the Intergalactic Summit: Where anyone can be a pundit and the points scored do not matter.


Glad to meet you sir.

( They cetainly matter more than what happens in space between freelance capsuleers, wouldn't you say ? )
Kahar Dex
Imperial Dreams
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#180 - 2015-08-01 10:18:18 UTC
This thread has received more than it's due worth of attention. Neophyte Farel, please see me in my offices at your convenience to discuss an item which is relevant to you, and only amongst loyalists.

His Eminence Cardinal Kahar Dex of the CVA and Imperial Dreams. Follow The Cardinal: @kahardex