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Let's talk about TP, baby!

Author
Melissa Lyale
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2015-07-27 20:27:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Melissa Lyale
I'm talking Target Painters and why you want to use them.

I'm doing some research into how to better setup my ratting ship to slaughter Serpentis in a Rattlesnake and I'm taking a deep look into the Target Painter.

Here is some basic information about one particular module and my skills affect on it:

Optimal Range: 39,000 m
Falloff Range: 72,000 m
Signature Bonus: 30% (to targets signature radius)

If one were to assume that a Target Painter works like an infinite tracking sentry drone we can use the turret calculation to find the % bonus for any given range to the target. We shall also assume that the Signature Resolution of the Target Painter is 1.

If I calculate the signature radius of a target (base 300) I get an increase to 396.5 and it slowly starts to drop off around 39,000 m.

To continue our look into Target Painters I have selected Garde II's which have the following stats for me:

Optimal Range: 24,3000 m
Falloff Range: 34,800 m
Signature Resolution: 400
Tracking Speed: .03948

Assume our target has a Transversal velocity of 100 m/s

I can then calculate the damage done by the sentry drone with the affect of no Target Painter and the affect of a Target Painter and I am confused.

Why is the damage application worse with a Target Painter on the target than without one? Sure, at less than 4,500 m it is better but at no other time is it better and at 4,500 m you should not be using your sentries anyway. You also are better served by using webs at that range as well. It makes no difference on the type of sentry drone selected.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b147/airportphantom/tpsentries_zps1qegjcit.png
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#2 - 2015-07-27 21:52:40 UTC
I don't know what you're doing wrong, but you're doing something wrong. Can you post the spreadsheet you used to make this? Or is it EFT or pyfa or some such? Matlab?

The ranges on the chart are... absurd. What are those units?

And finally: that's not how falloff works with target painters. EWAR, all of it, has binary effects. If you miss the falloff roll, you don't increase the target's sig at all. If you hit it, you get full effect of the painter.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2015-07-27 22:18:38 UTC
apart from the fact that ewar is digital (on or off) you must have got something else wrong as well. In eft I'm looking at the DPS graphs and paints definitely make a difference positively
Melissa Lyale
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2015-07-27 22:28:43 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
I don't know what you're doing wrong, but you're doing something wrong. Can you post the spreadsheet you used to make this? Or is it EFT or pyfa or some such? Matlab?

The ranges on the chart are... absurd. What are those units?

And finally: that's not how falloff works with target painters. EWAR, all of it, has binary effects. If you miss the falloff roll, you don't increase the target's sig at all. If you hit it, you get full effect of the painter.


The units are just not named their 250m each increment.

On Average the signal bonus percentage should hold then.

I'll see what I can do about sharing it.

Arla Sarain
#5 - 2015-07-27 22:39:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
Melissa Lyale wrote:


If one were to assume that a Target Painter works like an infinite tracking sentry drone we can use the turret calculation to find the % bonus for any given range to the target. We shall also assume that the Signature Resolution of the Target Painter is 1.

Redundant - tracking goes into the denominator of the power index, meaning the denominator would be a very small number, close to 0. Anything to the power of zero is 1. Regardless of what angular velocity of the enemy is, TP would apply full effect.

But that's a pointless observation, because your assumption is wrong. The above poster explained how falloff affects EWAR.


For your example
Angular velocity in both cases is 100/4500 = 0.022(2) rad/s

Without TP 0.5^(0.0222/0.03948 x 4/3)^2 => 69% to hit
With TP 0.5^(0.0222/0.03948 x ~1)^2 => 80% to hit.

~ +16% DPS or chance to hit.
Melissa Lyale
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2015-07-27 22:42:04 UTC
Here is the Google Sheet import. Please tell me where I went astray, other than TP dont work like a turret in their falloff range.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Lp2elT6FAg1T-ObrOhMwk88DQBJoD5YuR8sRA4U9rCM/edit?usp=sharing

Thanks.
Arla Sarain
#7 - 2015-07-27 23:00:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
You have an inconsistent amount of brackets IMO.

for ex.:
($G$29/($B58*$G$17))*($G$15/($E58))^2) @G58

Product of the two ratios is meant to be squared, not the last ratio alone.
Your function is giving 1.118 in the ratio before 0.5^[]
I'm getting 1.229 on my calc.

Put a legend on your graphs.

EDIT: Your entire G column is using the above formula. Whilst column I is using the correct one.

You are getting better results at low ranges because the contribution from a non squared ratio at low range is greater.

Its like [small ratio 1]*[small ratio 2]^2 versus ([small ratio 1]*[small ratio 2])^2

First ratio is range ratio, which will reduce in magnitude with increased range. Smaller ratios contribute to higher chance. Small ratios squared is an even lower ratio.

In the first occasion the rate at which it reduces is lower than in the second. Thats why you are getting wrong results and reaching a breakeven at 3750m
Melissa Lyale
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2015-07-27 23:07:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Melissa Lyale
Arla Sarain wrote:
You have an inconsistent amount of brackets IMO.

for ex.:
($G$29/($B58*$G$17))*($G$15/($E58))^2) @G58

Product of the two ratios is meant to be squared, not the last ratio alone.
Your function is giving 1.118 in the ratio before 0.5^[]
I'm getting 1.229 on my calc.

Put a legend on your graphs.


Well its a Google Import, I didn't spend any time on it other than to get you the math.

The square of the ratios seems to have fixed the issue though. That was actually a very astute observation on your part. Kudos. Your review of the sheet is greatly appreciated, excellent work. Now to fix the EWAR Part...

edit:

Here is the 'corrected' image:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b147/airportphantom/tpsentries2_zpscfg4kmvh.png

The TP still does not seem to make any difference at all past Optimal, however, if Transversal gets really high it makes all the difference in the world.
Arla Sarain
#9 - 2015-07-27 23:30:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
Melissa Lyale wrote:

The TP still does not seem to make any difference at all past Optimal, however, if Transversal gets really high it makes all the difference in the world.

That sounds right, because the rate at which CtH increases with reduced ratio is exponential. i.e. at high chance you start seeing diminishing returns.

https://wiki.eveonline.com/wikiEN/images/a/a4/Falloff.png

Slope reduces as it approaches 100%. In contrast the contribution at low chance (or high transversal) is much higher, because the slope goes from 0 to +. (or negative in relation to the graph, but basically the rate increases).

TPs don't do much for tracking based systems unless the chance to hit is very low.
Learned this the hard way when I flew a freaking TP slasher.

Also because it is chance based, you are looking at a statistical average. The reality will be dramatically different depending on the nature of random() function that CCP uses to invoke a random number.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#10 - 2015-07-28 02:49:13 UTC
Melissa Lyale wrote:
The TP still does not seem to make any difference at all past Optimal, however, if Transversal gets really high it makes all the difference in the world.


Yup. Since the two terms in the exponential are summative and capped a minimum of zero they will never affect one another. That is, tracking, signature, resolution, and transveral -- what I would collectively call the "tracking part" -- are together independent of falloff beyond optimal -- the "range part". Because painters (and webs for that matter) only change a chunk of the "tracking part" they do nothing to help damage loss due to range.

I rambled quite a bit about this last November and then saw it come back up in May.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#11 - 2015-07-29 20:05:02 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
I don't know what you're doing wrong, but you're doing something wrong. Can you post the spreadsheet you used to make this? Or is it EFT or pyfa or some such? Matlab?

The ranges on the chart are... absurd. What are those units?

And finally: that's not how falloff works with target painters. EWAR, all of it, has binary effects. If you miss the falloff roll, you don't increase the target's sig at all. If you hit it, you get full effect of the painter.



I know what he's doing wrong. He's trying to rat in one of the premier bait ships in the game. Of course things won't be quite right when you misuse it on this magnetude.

Drop a mobile depot - open your toolkit of pain - peck ineffectively at rats - swap you passive tank around as the gankers drop in on you for max effect - web/scram/kill all comers. Heck you can even use a painter.

What you don't want to do with a rattlesnake is worry about if the target painter you fitted to it gives you 33.876% (reapeating of course) sig bonus or 34.007% sig bonus.

I'm not trying to insult you here, I'm trying to help. You are doing it all wrong. Fit a point - pvp w/ that sexy girl. Ratting is for chumps. If you love puppies - fit a point.
Arla Sarain
#12 - 2015-07-29 20:20:57 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
I don't know what you're doing wrong, but you're doing something wrong. Can you post the spreadsheet you used to make this? Or is it EFT or pyfa or some such? Matlab?

The ranges on the chart are... absurd. What are those units?

And finally: that's not how falloff works with target painters. EWAR, all of it, has binary effects. If you miss the falloff roll, you don't increase the target's sig at all. If you hit it, you get full effect of the painter.



I know what he's doing wrong. He's trying to rat in one of the premier bait ships in the game. Of course things won't be quite right when you misuse it on this magnetude.

Drop a mobile depot - open your toolkit of pain - peck ineffectively at rats - swap you passive tank around as the gankers drop in on you for max effect - web/scram/kill all comers. Heck you can even use a painter.

What you don't want to do with a rattlesnake is worry about if the target painter you fitted to it gives you 33.876% (reapeating of course) sig bonus or 34.007% sig bonus.

I'm not trying to insult you here, I'm trying to help. You are doing it all wrong. Fit a point - pvp w/ that sexy girl. Ratting is for chumps. If you love puppies - fit a point.

I suppose that unlike the people who had enough time to gather 1200 likes and hence probably establish a money making routine/infrastructure, this guy is probably new and is trying to get himself a cash-cow to start purchasing Rattlesnakes.

Which is, you know, what every new person who joins this game does. And it's kind of unavoidable unless you want to seed more PLEXs into the game.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#13 - 2015-07-29 20:45:15 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
I don't know what you're doing wrong, but you're doing something wrong. Can you post the spreadsheet you used to make this? Or is it EFT or pyfa or some such? Matlab?

The ranges on the chart are... absurd. What are those units?

And finally: that's not how falloff works with target painters. EWAR, all of it, has binary effects. If you miss the falloff roll, you don't increase the target's sig at all. If you hit it, you get full effect of the painter.



I know what he's doing wrong. He's trying to rat in one of the premier bait ships in the game. Of course things won't be quite right when you misuse it on this magnetude.

Drop a mobile depot - open your toolkit of pain - peck ineffectively at rats - swap you passive tank around as the gankers drop in on you for max effect - web/scram/kill all comers. Heck you can even use a painter.

What you don't want to do with a rattlesnake is worry about if the target painter you fitted to it gives you 33.876% (reapeating of course) sig bonus or 34.007% sig bonus.

I'm not trying to insult you here, I'm trying to help. You are doing it all wrong. Fit a point - pvp w/ that sexy girl. Ratting is for chumps. If you love puppies - fit a point.

I suppose that unlike the people who had enough time to gather 1200 likes and hence probably establish a money making routine/infrastructure, this guy is probably new and is trying to get himself a cash-cow to start purchasing Rattlesnakes.

Which is, you know, what every new person who joins this game does. And it's kind of unavoidable unless you want to seed more PLEXs into the game.


Your harsh words make my feelings all ouchy. I'll tone it down so we both don't end up crying ourselves to sleep tonight.

Don't get too caught up in the numbers bub. I've never crunched them, and I've done OK. Put one on, get out there and shoot some rats. If it makes things better - keep it on there. If it doesn't then try something else. All I'm saying is.... well I'm saying a couple of things

pvp is fun - don't forget to do pvp
numbers are cool, but try stuff and see if it does what you want (don't rely on eft)
if you love puppies - put a point on your rattlesnake
Atomeon
Laistera
#14 - 2015-07-29 21:10:12 UTC
Well if you fight close with that ship, target painters are good. If you fly at long ranges (like MJD sniping at 100-140km) try to use the new missile guidance computer II.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#15 - 2015-07-30 03:00:38 UTC
Atomeon wrote:
Well if you fight close with that ship, target painters are good. If you fly at long ranges (like MJD sniping at 100-140km) try to use the new missile guidance computer II.


optimal probably involves using both. plus tps tend to work out to about 100km pretty reliably. they have very long falloff.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#16 - 2015-07-30 09:26:41 UTC
I have a TP on my tengu which is only ever loaded with scourge HM's

When I shoot at frigates I get volleys of 80 damage
When I TP those frigates I get volleys of 89 damage

There is a similar increase in volley damage against all hull-sizes except battleships
I inflict the same damage to battleships whether the TP is on or off


I would get better results from a Webifier but I can spit further than web's reach
Fitting a web is counter productive to long range ammunition

Fitting one of the new low-slot missile upgrades seems to work in a similar fashion to having a TP installed, just without the need for targeting.

generally I just use TP's as a way of increasing applied dps against ship classes that are smaller than my ammo class.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#17 - 2015-07-31 03:03:50 UTC
Target painters improve damage application with any weapon - including drones. They also stack independently from tracking and missile guidance computers.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.