Player Features and Ideas Discussion

............... wow.

So, your assumption is that everyone that stays in HS is not having fun?

You do realize that corps that spend all their time war deccing other corps and hunting HS targets have just as much fun shooting people as you do, but can do so in +5 imps with significantly less risks than someone in null?
In HS, it's very easy to get away in a pod.

So, when you compare someone doing pvp in HS and someone doing PVP in null sec, you then find the ones in HS are at less risk of implant loss, despite doing the same activity.


Now, I realize you're perfectly happy in +3s or without implants, but wouldn't you be happier if you didn't have to worry about those implants at all and train just as fast as someone "having fun" in HS?

Hi

I had already posted in this tread that completely removing learning implants would only cause issues with numerous implants sets and I don't see an easy solution how to remove Snakes or Halos, moreover, Acsendancy set was just introduced by CCP.

As for New Players Experience, the most common idea here at the Forums is “i want to remove skills at all and fly and manufacture and explore whatever at day 0”. Well, this is the approach of extremely lazy and very immature kids. Imagine a kid who says: “I want to drive a car, buy a gun, play violin and do surgery now without any studying”. Cool. Game developers, surely, can perform such a magic trick, but is that REALLY necessary? This would eliminate not only the achievements, but thinking and responsible planning. I don't like dumbing down the game. The EVE's benefit is that it still requires some thinking.

New player receives enough skills and for a total newbie it is not that hard to learn some while doing careers agents missions. An experienced player who starts new alt would probably buy all necessary skillbooks and spend a couple of days training the very basic core skills.

It would be nice if new players are granted:

Powergrid Management 3 (to unlock Capacitor and Shield skills)
Capacitor Management 2 (to unlock MAPC)
Capacitor Systems Operations 2
Afterburner 3 (to unlock High Speed Maneuring)
High Speed Maneuring 1 (to unlock MWDs)
Tactical Shield Manipulation 1 (to unlock Invuls)
Shield Upgrades 1 (to unlock Extenders)
Mechanics 3 (to unlock Hull Upgrades)
Hull Upgrades 1 (to unlock Expanded Cargohold I)
CPU Management 3 (to unlock e-war skills, or just because Mechanics and PG Mgmt are now 3)
Racial Industrial 1
Drones 2
Social 2 (as now newbies have no clue what are social skills about)
and maybe Target Management 1 (again because new players are unware about this skill)

That's basically it. Adding these skills as granted shall affect career missions as some of them grant some of these the skillbooks as the rewards.

Also, it still might be discussed if career agents can reward New Players with non-tradeable tiny accelerators boosting learning for 24 or 48 hours and valid for rookie pilots only providing a newbie with an opportunity to train newly accused skills faster as a reward for successful completion of career agent's missions chain.

Thanks

p.s. oh, I forgot to mention that MAPC II requirement of Cap Mgmt 5 is ridiculous for a frigate size module!

i think fear of loss is one of those challenges that will always be a major block, we are stuck with our lizard brains, but the good news is if ccp wants to encourage pvp interaction they will eventually tone down the dangers associated with pvp, its a question of when and by how much. i think implants is a small price to pay compared to other nerfs that could be done. we are essentially nerfing the dangers of undocking, because spending excess amount of time in stations is a bad spaceship game and a bad headquarters that doesnt inspire pvp adventure, in fact it cuts you off from creating meaningful content

There is a big difference in the risk/reward of implants versus everything else. Saying "risking expensive implants for greater SP gains is just EVE" is ignoring that difference.

When you choose to not risk using a T3* T2 hull, deadspace modules or a Slave set, you are left with lesser capabilities during that encounter. The losses you sustain from that can always be potentially fully recovered. When you choose to not risk using a +5 implants, you are left with lesser training capabilities during that time. The losses you sustain from that however cannot be recovered.

It's not specific to any situation either, it's an objective difference between the two. Losing ships, modules, implants, starbases, sov... these are all recoverable losses. The SP you miss out on from not using +5s never is. Playing the game for 23 hours a day 7 days a week for 10 years still won't recover that SP.

Personally I do not like the concept of permanent loss. I can and have foregone all forms of ISK making for extended periods when needed because there is always the potential with effort that I can make that all back if so desired. If I risk a cheap ship and lose the fight that's okay, because I can always use a more expensive one 10 minutes later and win the next fight. The idea that choosing to PVP in NPC nullsec for a few months should result in me permanently being weeks behind in training for the rest of my career is rather frustrating by comparison.


edit -
*T3 hulls are an exception by virtue of them removing subystem SP upon destruction

You do realize that most of the good ones, are experienced players that have been playing for years? Even if a newbish like person gets into one they have that expierence and FLeet group ability to draw on.

I am an older player, I am experienced there fore I have alts and also slightly retired combat main or two......
The only difference in risk or what not when it comes to implants, is that my combat characters rarely use them or use cheap ones besides the hardwires....this includes my gank characters. They do not need or never have needed to really invest in implants for training time.....because I am experienced in the GAME MECHANICS.

Now this character, its my ISK maker, my ship and gear builder, it never has to undock during a dec, becasue of my experience as a career ganker, and having lived in nullsec before....I can afford the +5's if i want to. A newbie should never be looking +5's till at least about year in dedicated play, knowing something about mechanics, getting his ass shot off and doing the same in kind.
Once he has that ability, has the knowledge for play, to include knowing how to setup a specific alt trained for a certain job....then sure with extra cash in hand he can purchase an use +5's....thats his reward...the ability to train those higher SP skills that take forever, albeit only 1-2 days get shaved off.

And that is my point, Attribute enhancers are not required for play....QUIT acting like they are. And as to +5's, well thats my reward, i actually use them, and undock with them most times.....the people advocating removal of them.......

Well you just need to HTFU and STFU....or back to those games where you dont lose your stuff when you die.

no they don't as most of the skills they will be learning will be low multiplier and therefore only minimally affected by the extra +1 or 2 from +5's.



Actually the hiseccer in +5's may gain SP slightly (yes *slightly*) faster but they are losing out on a huge amount of potential ISK generation by staying in hisec. No amount of SP will help a hisec manufacturer outperform a nullsec manufacturer in a max upgraded outpost.

Whether this is an advantage or just a day earlier access to a tool you cannot use either way depends on the player, not the SP. If people use such a bad remap without having asked someone more experienced or read about the benefits, inner workings, and effects of remaps, it is their fault.

Besides that:

1. Mechanics III (3 hours, 39 minutes, 30 seconds)
2. Mechanics IV (20 hours, 41 minutes, 49 seconds)
3. Mechanics V (4 days, 21 hours, 4 minutes, 50 seconds)
4. Hull Upgrades I (16 minutes, 40 seconds; 60.000 ISK)
5. Hull Upgrades II (1 hour, 17 minutes, 38 seconds)
6. Hull Upgrades III (7 hours, 19 minutes, 2 seconds)
7. Hull Upgrades IV (1 day, 17 hours, 23 minutes, 39 seconds)
8. Hull Upgrades V (9 days, 18 hours, 9 minutes, 40 seconds)
9. Explosive Armor Compensation I (16 minutes, 40 seconds; 120.000 ISK)
10. Explosive Armor Compensation II (1 hour, 17 minutes, 38 seconds)
11. Explosive Armor Compensation III (7 hours, 19 minutes, 2 seconds)
12. Explosive Armor Compensation IV (1 day, 17 hours, 23 minutes, 39 seconds)
13. EM Armor Compensation I (16 minutes, 40 seconds; 120.000 ISK)
14. EM Armor Compensation II (1 hour, 17 minutes, 38 seconds)
15. EM Armor Compensation III (7 hours, 19 minutes, 2 seconds)
16. EM Armor Compensation IV (1 day, 17 hours, 23 minutes, 39 seconds)
17. Kinetic Armor Compensation I (16 minutes, 40 seconds; 120.000 ISK)
18. Kinetic Armor Compensation II (1 hour, 17 minutes, 38 seconds)
19. Kinetic Armor Compensation III (7 hours, 19 minutes, 2 seconds)
20. Kinetic Armor Compensation IV (1 day, 17 hours, 23 minutes, 39 seconds)
21. Thermic Armor Compensation I (16 minutes, 40 seconds; 120.000 ISK)
22. Thermic Armor Compensation II (1 hour, 17 minutes, 38 seconds)
23. Thermic Armor Compensation III (7 hours, 19 minutes, 2 seconds)
24. Thermic Armor Compensation IV (1 day, 17 hours, 23 minutes, 39 seconds)
25. Repair Systems I (8 minutes, 20 seconds; 30.000 ISK)
26. Repair Systems II (38 minutes, 50 seconds)
27. Repair Systems III (3 hours, 39 minutes, 30 seconds)
28. Repair Systems IV (20 hours, 41 minutes, 49 seconds)
29. Remote Armor Repair Systems I (16 minutes, 40 seconds; 85.000 ISK)
30. Remote Armor Repair Systems II (1 hour, 17 minutes, 38 seconds)
31. Remote Armor Repair Systems III (7 hours, 19 minutes, 2 seconds)
32. Remote Armor Repair Systems IV (1 day, 17 hours, 23 minutes, 39 seconds)
33. Remote Hull Repair Systems I (16 minutes, 40 seconds; 100.000 ISK)
34. Remote Hull Repair Systems II (1 hour, 17 minutes, 38 seconds)
35. Remote Hull Repair Systems III (7 hours, 19 minutes, 2 seconds)
36. Remote Hull Repair Systems IV (1 day, 17 hours, 23 minutes, 39 seconds)


9 unique skills, 36 skill levels; Total time: 31 days, 8 hours, 43 minutes, 20 seconds; Completion: 02.09.2015 06:39:26; Cost: 755.000
N.B. Skill costs are based on CCP's database and are indicative only

Just a random, armor focused plan for Int/Mem without remap (so 20/20). With +3s I shorten these 31D 8H by 4D 2H. If I plugged in +5s, it would be 6D 6H, just 2 days difference. Now, it takes about 17 days (unbonused) to get Cybernetics from 3 (necessary for +4s) to level V. This is about 3 months worth of training time that someone needs to put in to catch up to someone who's trained useful skills instead. The person who's trained useful skills instead can already fly a wider variety of ships, use a wider variety of modules and can pursue a wider variety of activities. And this is just the pure training time without ISK cost for the 2 +5s factored in. Now imagine that for a real plan with loads of different skill categories.

Tell me again why +5s are mandatory for new players? Because I do not get it and in light of this will probably never get it. All they do is keeping new players from actually being able to do something. If new players really want to do something, they do not bother with +5s in the first couple of months and after that time they should be capable to balance the pros and cons of what they want.

Yes, they are. Because they only require a couple of minutes to get access to (Cybernetics I). They really add benefits to the new player training speed without sacrificing long training time for no return during the time where people apparently crave for activity, more tools and less waiting.

I do not argue against the existence of +5s. I argue against your and other's argument that new players are brute forced to use them or else they cannot accomplish something. That is simply wrong in my opinion.
They all have their places in my opinion and in how I use the implants: +3s for my day to day activities in Null, +4s to train faster during vacation, extended no EVE time or to get another character, that is not going to log in or undock in the first place, faster to where I want it to be, so that I can resume training sooner on Rivr or other main characters on other accounts. I do not believe that it would be better without them. They coerce you to make a choice between fun and faster skill training (I disregard those people who sit in high sec and wardec other corps for easy kills. Indu and mining already expose themselves to enough podding risk.

PS: Please refrain from quoting the entire post if it's such a large post and you only refer to one small paragraph.

I call bullshit on that one bro....
I know for a fact, cause i had an alt that never logged in for even 1 second after creation for about a year that i finally decided to use, guess what i found out in my first 30 day experimentation.....

In 29 days, skilling up from out of the box SP and skills, casual play amounting to 2.5 hrs per day, and that factoring in some days not played and Saturdays or Sundays playing 2hrs in the morning and 2-3 hrs before going to sleep....

Between bounties, loot, salvage, and LP that character totaled 976 Million ISK....maxed out doing lv3's with not enough standing for lv4's....
I wanted to see if a newbie that applied himself could PLEX in his first 30 days, an you know what he can, I also still have the original clone with its +3 implants installed purchased in that first month.
So before trying to blow smoke up our thruster ports go and experiment first before you say something someone may have experimented in.

Again ISK has nothing to do with it, (risk aversion) It all has to do with learning how to play the game, IT IS player experience not SP, attributes, or Implants that is the issue for a great many things.

I also had experience to teach someone the ropes to do the same thing, only avantage i had on my cousin was that I know the mechanics and how to do things. That is the issue, and the problem with NPE past the career agents....newbs dont ask questions and a lot of Vets dont teach properly.