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Conflict drivers: the problem is stability

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Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2015-07-28 17:42:32 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Start with the biggest offender - High Sec. You can barely get people interested in moving to null as it is, and part of that is HS is so profitable and secure, and as you show, not subject to depletion. Basically you don't want to make null worse than it already is, and expect people to want to fight over it.

As someone who has spent a lot of time in high, confirming that after a while it llooks like impossible chore even to move 7 jumps to market hub and back, not even talking about something like moving to null Big smile

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#22 - 2015-07-28 18:01:49 UTC
elitatwo wrote:

Actually that cost of war is not paid in isk but labor and when you have enough people (nope, not your alts and bots) the cost goes down not up.
Bake outpost with a bakery, make your own stuff, give you alliance buddies. It may also be convenient to farm DED plexes for blue mods to put on.
The value of lost stuff in highly inaccurate since only an average in market prices are estimated.

And here are some estimates:

A carrier costs 500 million isk - the book itself for each one
~ 30 million tritanium
~ 20 million pyerite
~18 million mexallon and so on.

The values here are examples, not the actual values of course but you should get the point of how this works.


Those materials have a value and the ships have isk value also. If we ignore the value on ships and only look at them as minerals/labor then moon mining is NOT an income source for alliances. When someone fight and loose ships they have to replace them using either isk to buy stuff or they have to use their own materials that could have been sold for isk, bouth means less isk in the wallet!
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#23 - 2015-07-28 18:08:56 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Start with the biggest offender - High Sec. You can barely get people interested in moving to null as it is, and part of that is HS is so profitable and secure, and as you show, not subject to depletion. Basically you don't want to make null worse than it already is, and expect people to want to fight over it.


Incursion means alot of moving, make 0.0 need hte same amount of moves and we will drown in null bear tears.
Level 4 missions have crap isk payout compared to 0.0, the income there is LP and that isk 100% player driven profit (no buyer = no income)

Incursion income is not that insane, 200m/hr for HQ fleets (including LP @1000 each). People claim same income with 0.0 ratting (not afk) and afk ratting/mining can make more when you multibox, something you can not do with many accounts in incursion (HQ fleet alteast)

Change 0.0 income to more LP based with either higher LP payout than high or cheaper items in the LP store, make it a direct competition for those LP stores and give 0.0 the upper hand (not just missions but bounties also)
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#24 - 2015-07-28 20:37:21 UTC
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
Anyone else notice that OP want resources to change places, but then say that incursions that weekly require people to move 10-40 jumps is bad?

Yes null/low resources should not be static as it is today, but you will never get large alliances to move and take a new region every few months without increasing the income they have ALOT. Most wars cost insane amounts of isk (from a single player perspective atleast), its not unheard of to see battlereports with 100+ billion lost and thats 1 battle.

If it cost 100b to take a new set of systems with better resources, those systems have to pay ATLEAST 100b more than the systems you already have before its depleted and you have to move. We are easily talking 100b per system, few month to deplete and the income needed to justify a war starts to become insane


My thoughts exactly. The result could be to just stop holding sov. If you move in, take advantage of the resources present until they deplete...then you have worthless space.

Some questions:

1. How will this depletion model work? Constellation, region? what?

2. If it is at the regional level how can all regions be worthless at the same time? Will that just encourage players to not log in?

3. If it is at the constellation level, what is to stop people from forming a coalition at the regional level and working out sharing arrangements?


"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#25 - 2015-07-28 20:45:21 UTC
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
Incursion means alot of moving, make 0.0 need hte same amount of moves and we will drown in null bear tears.


I don't think you get how incursions are run in null. Easy answer: they aren't. When they are run, at least in my experience, the influence bar is ground out in 12 hours and the mothership popped at the earliest convenience, and this is only because it is close and cyno jamming key systems. They are neither accessible, nor available, so they really don't get run much.

HS incursions are accessible, available, and extraordinarily safe, which is why they are run a lot by the people living in null. Why bother dealing with lots of hard logistics in null when the incursion won't last long, when you could just go to HS with an alt and have a full week farming?

Relating it back to the thread, the bigger problem isn't resource depletion, or lack thereof, it's that null space is now lots of work, but less reward than FW or HS incursions. When and if owning null space actually puts its average resident above those two income streams, it will be worth something. Why would I want to join a null alliance, move a ton of stuff out to nowhere, just to have worse income opportunities and have to spend half my time defending those bad opportunities? If you want to drive conflict, you have to basically either buff the heck out of null, or actually reign in the madness that is HS.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#26 - 2015-07-29 00:38:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Haatakan Reppola
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
Incursion means alot of moving, make 0.0 need hte same amount of moves and we will drown in null bear tears.


I don't think you get how incursions are run in null. Easy answer: they aren't. When they are run, at least in my experience, the influence bar is ground out in 12 hours and the mothership popped at the earliest convenience, and this is only because it is close and cyno jamming key systems. They are neither accessible, nor available, so they really don't get run much.

HS incursions are accessible, available, and extraordinarily safe, which is why they are run a lot by the people living in null. Why bother dealing with lots of hard logistics in null when the incursion won't last long, when you could just go to HS with an alt and have a full week farming?

Relating it back to the thread, the bigger problem isn't resource depletion, or lack thereof, it's that null space is now lots of work, but less reward than FW or HS incursions. When and if owning null space actually puts its average resident above those two income streams, it will be worth something. Why would I want to join a null alliance, move a ton of stuff out to nowhere, just to have worse income opportunities and have to spend half my time defending those bad opportunities? If you want to drive conflict, you have to basically either buff the heck out of null, or actually reign in the madness that is HS.



I do get how 0.0 incursions are run (or why they are not), what im saying is that 0.0 players would be whining like crasy if they had to move around as much as HS incursion runners do...

One of the biggest reasons why 0.0 Incursions are left alone is that they need several players to do and (the main part) they boradcast to the whole server that someone is in space doing PvE (influence bar)

Not sure if the changes to number of people you can have on grid have happend yet, but 2x the players compared to high (UPDATE: 60 vs 40) and +50% pay for each player should make it alot more profit than high can ever dream about. You need to actualy controll your space, but 45m per site with estimake 6-8 siter per hour gives a nice income (270-360m + LP) only needing T1 Battleships and logi
Leonardo Adami
Doomheim
#27 - 2015-07-29 01:05:07 UTC
Vote this man or woman for president. I fully support this idea.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#28 - 2015-07-29 01:11:39 UTC
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
...Those materials have a value and the ships have isk value also. If we ignore the value on ships and only look at them as minerals/labor then moon mining is NOT an income source for alliances. When someone fight and loose ships they have to replace them using either isk to buy stuff or they have to use their own materials that could have been sold for isk, bouth means less isk in the wallet!


Okay let's start at the beginning. 4.5 billion years ago a star just formed in a gas clowd.. -erm oops that's too early.

You don't seem to have lived in sov-sec. That is fine. I did, twice. Now here is the funny thing, at no time does anyone in an alliance need isk. Everything you can dream of is handed to you and if you loose it, youll get a new one.

If you are one of those mega-collectors that constantly "need" 300 billion in her wallet that is fine too but on an alliance level unnecessary.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#29 - 2015-07-29 01:55:12 UTC
Who the hell is gonna put billions worth of ship on the line for a resource that might deplete the very next day?

Why would anyone move when they can just wait for the other to deplete his **** so it spawn in your own backyard?

Whoever already hold lots of space would by default get more because random distribution would mean more of their system gets chosen by the lucky roll. The guys who hold 100 systems will over time always end up with more stuff sapwning in his systems than the guy who own 5.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#30 - 2015-07-29 03:08:13 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Who the hell is gonna put billions worth of ship on the line for a resource that might deplete the very next day?

Someone living in a F&I fantasy world

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#31 - 2015-07-29 03:15:12 UTC
elitatwo wrote:

You don't seem to have lived in sov-sec. That is fine. I did, twice. Now here is the funny thing, at no time does anyone in an alliance need isk. Everything you can dream of is handed to you and if you loose it, youll get a new one.

If you are one of those mega-collectors that constantly "need" 300 billion in her wallet that is fine too but on an alliance level unnecessary.


Where do you think those "free" items come from?
If its alliance/coalition that provide items, there is a 99% chance the isk to pay for those items come from moons (or selling moon minerals if you need it that basic)
If its individual players they either mined or ratted (normal PvE) or bought PLEX to pay for those items.

Normaly replacement programs are run on moon income, ratting/mining is mostly for personal gain.
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#32 - 2015-07-29 03:16:34 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Who the hell is gonna put billions worth of ship on the line for a resource that might deplete the very next day?

Someone living in a fantasy world


fixed that for you Big smile
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2015-07-29 03:34:39 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
...Those materials have a value and the ships have isk value also. If we ignore the value on ships and only look at them as minerals/labor then moon mining is NOT an income source for alliances. When someone fight and loose ships they have to replace them using either isk to buy stuff or they have to use their own materials that could have been sold for isk, bouth means less isk in the wallet!


Okay let's start at the beginning. 4.5 billion years ago a star just formed in a gas clowd.. -erm oops that's too early.

You don't seem to have lived in sov-sec. That is fine. I did, twice. Now here is the funny thing, at no time does anyone in an alliance need isk. Everything you can dream of is handed to you and if you loose it, youll get a new one.

If you are one of those mega-collectors that constantly "need" 300 billion in her wallet that is fine too but on an alliance level unnecessary.

Everything "handed" to you comes from somewhere. Every item gifted came from someone else getting the resources to make it and defending the facilities it was made in. That itself holds value that could just as easily have been shifted into someone else' wallet. Just because they are nullsec alliances doesn't mean they get to bypass the mechanics of the game and just supply their SRPs out of nothing.

If space resources deplete it directly affects the chain of events which provides those who haven't bothered to understand their alliance level logistics with their free ships.
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#34 - 2015-07-29 03:38:17 UTC
The recurrent assumption that you can change highsec players if only you make them poor enough has not worked. CCP chopped highsec mining income by a huge amount, did some massive exodus of highsec miners flood null. wh or low occur, no.

When the income grinds to near or as you say reaches zero we arent going to fight for resources we might move around if it works but if highsec runs dry of resources this game is dead.

If CCP us dumb enough to implement this idea it will be the last and final dumb decision they make.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#35 - 2015-07-29 03:40:40 UTC
Haatakan Reppola wrote:

I do get how 0.0 incursions are run (or why they are not), what im saying is that 0.0 players would be whining like crasy if they had to move around as much as HS incursion runners do...


This hypothesis fails due to the fact that null players will gladly do HS incursions rather than any income stream in null.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#36 - 2015-07-29 06:19:11 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Haatakan Reppola wrote:

I do get how 0.0 incursions are run (or why they are not), what im saying is that 0.0 players would be whining like crasy if they had to move around as much as HS incursion runners do...


This hypothesis fails due to the fact that null players will gladly do HS incursions rather than any income stream in null.


Say that to the hordes of ratters in 0.0
High sec incursion have no chance take all the ratters from 0.0

SOME 0.0 players come to high sec for incursions, and still most of them claim they make more or the same isk in back in null
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
#37 - 2015-07-29 07:33:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Nasar Vyron
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
SOME 0.0 players come to high sec for incursions, and still most of them claim they make more or the same isk in back in null


Source please?

I can promise you we don't, not without the use of multiple alts accounts. Individual income in null cannot even begin to touch that of HS incursions anymore. And by anymore, I mean since the removal of fighter assign (or skynet) you all cried so desperately for because your day trips to sov null were being slapped down by the better equipped residents. Every other activity in null that makes comparable income (not individual) requires groups of players or alts to accomplish with actually greater than zero risk to their assets.

Simply put, the very mechanics surrounding high sec [incursions] are what allow you to function in near perfect safety while make significantly more individual income. Now if participating in an incursion flagged you as suspect then nobody would be saying a thing since you are now putting your assets at risk in a highly populated area. A risk that is actually worth the income you are seeing.
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#38 - 2015-07-29 16:49:15 UTC
Nasar Vyron wrote:
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
SOME 0.0 players come to high sec for incursions, and still most of them claim they make more or the same isk in back in null


Source please?

I can promise you we don't, not without the use of multiple alts accounts. Individual income in null cannot even begin to touch that of HS incursions anymore. And by anymore, I mean since the removal of fighter assign (or skynet) you all cried so desperately for because your day trips to sov null were being slapped down by the better equipped residents. Every other activity in null that makes comparable income (not individual) requires groups of players or alts to accomplish with actually greater than zero risk to their assets.

Simply put, the very mechanics surrounding high sec [incursions] are what allow you to function in near perfect safety while make significantly more individual income. Now if participating in an incursion flagged you as suspect then nobody would be saying a thing since you are now putting your assets at risk in a highly populated area. A risk that is actually worth the income you are seeing.


I daily see people claiming htey make 150-200m/hr ACTIVE ratting in 0.0, sure it may be lies but im in no position to argue what income an activity i dont engage in can get.
A single incursion have "room" for 2-3 fleets per system, thats 120 in HQ + 60 Assault + 10 Vanguard + 5 Scout.
Lets call it 3 HQ systems per incursion and say that include the other systems also for pilots, this gives 360 players per Incursion and max 1080 players total for the 3 Incursions that can spawn in high sec.
How many people do you think are ratting in 0.0 total?
Only number i found was 3524 0.0 systems, that mean 1 player per 3.5 system.

Incursion isk/hr is VERY dependent on a good fleet, you can not compare a good incursion fleet income to afk ratting in 0.0 and say 0.0 have bad income. Compare active ratting with a good ship/fit to what these 100-150billion isk fleets make (not counting purple snowflakes)
Dino Zavr
Shadow Owls
#39 - 2015-07-29 17:43:41 UTC
Personally i understand this like a suggestion to turn everyone into nomads.
This definitely shall impact everyone. First, after two months in game, relatively new players shall be forced to go low or null for isks to be killed again and again and finally quit
Second, this shall impact activities which initially are designed to be time consuming like the research capitals blueprints and building capitals or similar
Third, this is to enforce players to cooperate or quit, so the majority of those people who prefer highsec grinding will most likely quit, as renting fast decaying systems will no longer be an easy option
Fourth, this make huge player-made structures obsolete as they are not very much mobile
Fifth this, most likely, will provoke donations, because not everyone prefer hard ways while lazy and easy one exist
Sure, I like the suggestion, however in my understanding its implementation will severely decrease the game's playerbase.
Again, this is only my personal opinion.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#40 - 2015-07-29 17:57:25 UTC
Just the fact that people in null outsource their income generating activities to HS should tell you enough of the story, though there have been many, many threads exploring this problem in detail. You don't see this happen very much the other way around, do you?

With the anomaly changes, more people can earn earn income per system, but that income still doesn't approach what an individual could do in HS, not even factoring in the hours required to organize, take, maintain, and defend sov space, nor the risks involved. Literally the only advantage is when you have 3-4 or more accounts, but that shouldn't be a requirement to live in null, should it?

Take a look at these statistics from 2014, I take it dotlan is a trusted source?
http://i.imgur.com/9vhmQnH.png

Having seen that, I couldn't agree more that depletion needs to be a thing. For every ratter in HS, you are depleting content and social interaction (the things that make people stay subbed), whereas the ratting in null is much more evenly distributed, and the systems could handle it far better, and encourages people to join corps, alliances, etc, and get involved, therefore staying subbed. I can't stand all the null hate around, when it is HS that needs the hate, its is HS that literally asphyxiates content form being generated. It should be no surprise that a few big fish dominate nullsec - there is nothing there for the little guy.

Deplete HS, and New Eden has something to actually fight over.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
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