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TerminalDogma press release regarding Jamyl Sarum I
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Arrendis
TK Corp
#21 - 2015-07-26 15:26:24 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
God is omnipotent. You can't be omnipotent without the ability to change your mind.


A fact far too many hardliners of your religion seem to forget, far too often.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#22 - 2015-07-26 15:27:17 UTC
Borascus wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
Borascus wrote:

I'm also surprised a failure in the succession trials is good enough for the (albeit mighty) Amarr Empire, given their demands for sacred flesh. How can it be that a failure in the succession trials is still considered sacred. Jamyl failed the succession trial. Originally,that was God's will.


God is omnipotent. You can't be omnipotent without the ability to change your mind.


The only reason I put this forward, with the utmost respect to you held within me Rodj Blake, is due to the Amarrian oversight in regards to finding out where The Empress was during those years. 'God: Reloaded' is a hard concept for me to grasp, although your faith is admirable.

Luckily, I have not been left in a state of such uncertainty, allowing me to understand that my time is once only. Should I fail completely in that time it is up to my successors to reform in an effort to stick to the path our forebearers set out for us. I do not have such a weighty burden as leading the Amarr Empire, though.

I wouldn't be expectant of my successors to become God when their choice becomes manifest reality.


There was no such oversight.

Just because you don't know the means by which the Empress returned, it does not automatically follow that the Theology Council and the Privy Council don't know.


Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
#23 - 2015-07-26 15:46:05 UTC
Oh well as long as the Theology Council and Privy Council know, then its clearly a miracle and evidence of God's divine will. There's definity nothing shady about that at all. Break the godflesh doctrine to ensure your chosen heir ended up on the throne? No, no, they definitely wouldn't do anything of the sort.

Fear and Loathing in Internet Spaceships
Arrendis
TK Corp
#24 - 2015-07-26 16:03:10 UTC
Saede Riordan wrote:
Oh well as long as the Theology Council and Privy Council know, then its clearly a miracle and evidence of God's divine will. There's definity nothing shady about that at all. Break the godflesh doctrine to ensure your chosen heir ended up on the throne? No, no, they definitely wouldn't do anything of the sort.


C'mon, credit them with some dignity and restraint here... clearly, they'd use a biosculpted double during the combat trials so that whoever killed themselves wasn't really Jamyl Sarum!
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2015-07-26 16:20:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Andreus Ixiris
Rodj Blake wrote:
God is omnipotent. You can't be omnipotent without the ability to change your mind.

And you can't be infallible with it.

Rodj Blake wrote:
[There was no such oversight.

Just because you don't know the means by which the Empress returned, it does not automatically follow that the Theology Council and the Privy Council don't know.

What if they don't know, Blake? What if she is just a clone? Would you dine on the innumerable words you've spoken in her defence and admit she's a fraud who duped you?

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#26 - 2015-07-27 06:17:22 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
God is omnipotent. You can't be omnipotent without the ability to change your mind.

And you can't be infallible with it.


Actually, it is possible for an omnipotent god to be infallible whilst changing their mind.


Quote:

Rodj Blake wrote:
[There was no such oversight.

Just because you don't know the means by which the Empress returned, it does not automatically follow that the Theology Council and the Privy Council don't know.

What if they don't know, Blake? What if she is just a clone? Would you dine on the innumerable words you've spoken in her defence and admit she's a fraud who duped you?


If they didn't know, they wouldn't have acted as they did. If there was any doubt about at all about the Empress' legitimacy then the Speakers would have been called in by now.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Arrendis
TK Corp
#27 - 2015-07-27 06:48:08 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
God is omnipotent. You can't be omnipotent without the ability to change your mind.

And you can't be infallible with it.


Actually, it is possible for an omnipotent god to be infallible whilst changing their mind.


Much as I don't want to, I have to agree with this. An omnipotent being would be able to remain infallible while changing their mind. If you're watching a holo, and halfway through decide you feel like taking a nap instead, you weren't wrong when you were watching the holo, you just decided 'no, I want something else right now'.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#28 - 2015-07-27 07:18:01 UTC
And yet there's the paradox in that an omniscient and omnipotent creature would already know ahead of time every consequence and outcome of any decision it would have made, including whether or not it would change its mind and why. It makes little sense for such a creature to change its mind down the line, because if it actually is omnipotent and omniscient, it should have the ability to get it right from the get go.

Of course, it's rather academic at any rate. An omniscient and omnipotent being would recognize that the state of the universe is one filled with suffering, horror and quite inventive death. This is, by every dogma in place, by design and not being rectified, so it is clearly an agreeable state of existence for this being, which makes it unequivocally an evil creature.

If this is not the case, it either does not know or it is powerless to change the state of affairs, which would in turn mean it's one of the following three: Impotent, Ignorant or Evil. Whichever one you pick, it's not worth the worship even if you assume its existence as a given.

It is a rather terrifying but inescapable notion that any capsuleer I've ever met is a more morally and ethically upstanding creature than an omniscient and omnipotent creature that'd allow humanity to exist in such a state.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#29 - 2015-07-27 07:28:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
Truth. If there is a God, it's a sadist at best, psychotic at worst.

Of course, I have to admit that anything omniscient would be absolutely, completely, barking mad by our standards, so that's not that surprising, I suppose.
Haruchai Khan
Doomheim
#30 - 2015-07-27 08:29:05 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
And yet there's the paradox in that an omniscient and omnipotent creature would already know ahead of time every consequence and outcome of any decision it would have made, including whether or not it would change its mind and why. It makes little sense for such a creature to change its mind down the line, because if it actually is omnipotent and omniscient, it should have the ability to get it right from the get go.



I am not a theologian by any stretch of the imagination, but it is clear to me that the conception of an omniscient, omnipotent god must perforce depend on that deity being outside Time. In other words, trying to conceive of such a god being constrained by linear time, such as simple cause and effect, must be fundamentally flawed. Time for such a being must be like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey ... er... stuff. Well, the metaphor ran away with me, but I'm sure you understand.

There is no paradox, because to such a deity, all things may happen at the same moment or in some conceptual framework beyond our understanding.

I prefer to deal with things I can comprehend, and since the Amarr accept the Empress as their leader, I am comfortable with that choice. To undermine the Empress and her legitimacy merely makes the Empire even more difficult to deal with when trying to hold them to their treaties and attitude to the other legitimate powers of the cluster.

The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.
Borascus
#31 - 2015-07-27 09:41:07 UTC
In particle physics we have concepts like spin. When the Universe first formed these particles would have been formed singularly, and would appear inert. Each and every one would lack direction, vector or identifying characteristic.

That is, until a force is applied to each and every particle in turn to give a characteristic. This force would be capable of forming a reality, much like the particles it characterised.

I don't fault the Amarrians for their belief in God. However, The Empress wouldn't have done well at all attempting to join many of the alliances and coalitions in the lawless parts of New Eden. This part is the most questionable facet of The Empress.
Jade Blackwind
#32 - 2015-07-27 11:41:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Blackwind
Her Imperial Majesty doesn't like to be scanned, eh?

Maybe that scan of his found something... interesting?

Maybe that's what the Drifters search for?
Mathias Raholan
Iron.Guard
Fraternity.
#33 - 2015-07-27 20:29:01 UTC
I'm sure the Gallente military would have no issues shooting down a vessel scanning the President's ship. Even those of us who have distanced themselves from traditional Amarr ways believe we reserve the right to protect our Empress, as would most citizens of any nation or empire.

I think the fact a SoCT member, a high ranking one at that, took the time to come from Geminate perform such a bold action outweighs the Navy's response.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#34 - 2015-07-27 20:41:56 UTC
Mathias Raholan wrote:
I'm sure the Gallente military would have no issues shooting down a vessel scanning the President's ship. Even those of us who have distanced themselves from traditional Amarr ways believe we reserve the right to protect our Empress, as would most citizens of any nation or empire.

I think the fact a SoCT member, a high ranking one at that, took the time to come from Geminate perform such a bold action outweighs the Navy's response.


And again: if the order to fire had come while he was engaged in his hostile action, I think far fewer people would have questioned it.
Soren Tyrhanos
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#35 - 2015-07-27 22:03:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Soren Tyrhanos
I think the issue comes down to a much greater level of simplicity than all this posturing on the moral high ground each and all seem to be clamouring over.

Modules of the kind Mr Reish used to scan the Seraph to my understanding are not typically able to glean readings or be used upon capsuleer controlled vessels. In this case apparently Mr Reish possessed one that could and failed to explain in clear terms the purpose of his presence beyond offering ambiguous statements from a relatively obscure codicil.

In this instance the question needs to instead be whether the scanning of Capsuleer vessels with this new entosis technology is covered by the codicil. With fair relevance to what this technology actually does the suggestion that Mr Reish was only 'scanning' the Seraph is tenuous at best.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#36 - 2015-07-27 22:13:51 UTC
The CONCORD report on the Gnosis' remains indicated a standard 2nd-generation Entosis Link, easily available just next door in Amarr. So maybe the question should be: what exactly did he lock onto on that Avatar?
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2015-07-27 22:27:04 UTC
Perhaps no information was gleened from the titan's systems as such, but rather the knowledge that the entosis link actually interacted with the titan told Mr Reish all he needed to know from that'test'.
Matar Ronin
#38 - 2015-07-28 06:52:20 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Perhaps no information was gleened from the titan's systems as such, but rather the knowledge that the entosis link actually interacted with the titan told Mr Reish all he needed to know from that'test'.
In fact a handy Titan in high sec is not something you find everyday. If Entosis Link can lock onto and interact with a Titan that would certainly be an interesting power balance wild card for the empires and null sec alliances. This test must be repeated and verified. When will this demonic slavery cult leader make another public appearance?

‘Vain flame burns fast/and its lick is light/Modest flame lasts long/and burns to the bone.’

" We lost a war we chose not to fight." Without a doubt this is the best way to lose any war and the worst excuse to explain the beating afterwards.
Haruchai Khan
Doomheim
#39 - 2015-07-28 07:46:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Haruchai Khan
Matar Ronin wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Perhaps no information was gleened from the titan's systems as such, but rather the knowledge that the entosis link actually interacted with the titan told Mr Reish all he needed to know from that'test'.
In fact a handy Titan in high sec is not something you find everyday. If Entosis Link can lock onto and interact with a Titan that would certainly be an interesting power balance wild card for the empires and null sec alliances. This test must be repeated and verified.


I would agree. A control experiment would be useful.

Governments and corporations with access to a Titan should conduct a similar experiment on their vessels, and publish the results. If the Entosis Link scan cannot lock these ships, then we will be able to deduce that the Amarr are hiding something revolutionary and the SoCT proven correct in their concern.

The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#40 - 2015-07-28 14:47:04 UTC
Haruchai Khan wrote:
If the Entosis Link scan cannot lock these ships


They cannot.
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