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what would you do
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skin bag
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-01-01 15:09:20 UTC
this is a morality test for you eve players.
the question i pose is this.
let say you bought a char on forums. all the posts and sale were legit. everything confirmed from both sides isk and acct info as well as transfer. so the sale is 100% legal and complete.
now you log onto the char and the isk wasnt taken off by the old owner.
would you give the isk back or keep it?
lets see what your thoughts are.
remember this is hypothetical question
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2 - 2012-01-01 15:11:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
skin bag wrote:
remember this is hypothetical question
Riiiight…

By the way, you probably want to read rule #17 — there is nothing hypothetical about the scenario you're describing.
Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies
#3 - 2012-01-01 15:19:43 UTC
I'd read the Character Bazaar Rules and Resources thread and make a note of point 17.

Fear God and Thread Nought
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
#4 - 2012-01-01 15:22:36 UTC
Jackie Fisher wrote:
I'd read the Character Bazaar Rules and Resources thread and make a note of point 17.

For the lazy

CCP wrote:
Whenever a character is transferred before the seller has moved the ISK received from the sale to another one of their characters, the Customer Support team will return that ISK to the rightful owner. The buyer cannot expect to receive both the character and the ISK that they paid to purchase it.

so the only moral choice you have is whether you transfer the isk yourself or wait for CCP to do it.

Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Sometimes when I post, I look at my sig and wish that I'd follow my own god damned advice.
skin bag
Doomheim
#5 - 2012-01-01 15:24:31 UTC  |  Edited by: skin bag
thats not what it says at all. and besides the english not bieng exactally clear in that rule. but it does not say that at all.
that rule states that if the seller tries to scam the buyer he wont get the isk and the char. this isnt the case. the seller didnt remove the isk and the sale is 100% complete and legit
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#6 - 2012-01-01 15:27:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
skin bag wrote:
thats not what it says at all. and besides the english not bieng exactally clear in that rule. but it does not say that at all.
Yes it does.

The ISK from the sale belongs to the seller. If he has forgotten it on the character the buyer now owns, the buyer has a choice between sending it himself or having the GMs transfer it (which may or may not put him into negative wallet, depending on what he's done with the character since the transfer).

Keeping it is not an option.
Quote:
that rule states that if the seller tries to scam the buyer he wont get the isk and the char. this isnt the case. the seller didnt remove the isk and the sale is 100% complete and legit
No. Scams are covered by rule 16. Rule #17 specifically deals with the latter case: when the seller didn't remove the ISK — whether the sale is legit or not is not a factor.

If anything, if the buyer doesn't want to comply, then the seller has a reasonable case to report the whole thing as a scam, at which point he's likely to have the character returned (with or without ISK) and the buyer thrown out of the game…
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2012-01-01 15:29:15 UTC
As clearly hypothetical question ... rules does not apply.. otherwise it would not be hypothetical at all.. would it.

So i will transfer them, assuming i would know to which character.
Treks Shadow
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2012-01-01 15:33:45 UTC
yes it is clear that if the seller doesnt move the isk they will get it back. however if you send the isk to a new alt and use the isk to buy assets then transfer those assets to different chars the alt then will be negative
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#9 - 2012-01-01 15:33:57 UTC
I have had that happen to me.

But since I knew the person selling the character, risking the friendship wasn't really worth it over a measly sum.

With a total stranger, maybe.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.
Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
#10 - 2012-01-01 15:35:38 UTC
I've seen someone in the same situation getting banned because he stalled giving back the ISK (even bought stuff with it) that was not his.

You can dream all you want, there is no way you will be able to keep that ISK.
So be a nice chap and return the ISK before a grumpy GM does it for you.
Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
#11 - 2012-01-01 15:37:14 UTC
Treks Shadow wrote:
yes it is clear that if the seller doesnt move the isk they will get it back. however if you send the isk to a new alt and use the isk to buy assets then transfer those assets to different chars the alt then will be negative


Nice advice. Getting your entire account banned. Ugh
MadMuppet
Critical Mass Inc
#12 - 2012-01-01 15:43:07 UTC
Moral question? If there was no paper trail, I'd pocket the money of course.

Reality however would point out that this is a way to do a real money transfer and using characters as digital isk mules for the RMT market is not allowed. As a legitimate player I would file a petition to avoid being flagged as an isk-buyer before taking ANY action with the money attached to the character. I would have the GM take all actions in moving the money. Moving the money myself, even back to the selling player could throw up a flag and leave you broke (billions in the negative) and/or suspended until the GMs could address your ticket correctly, and that could take weeks.

This message brought to you by Experience(tm). When common sense fails you, experience will come to the rescue. Experience(tm) from the makers of CONCORD.

"If you are part of the problem, you will be nerfed." -MadMuppet
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#13 - 2012-01-01 15:51:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Quote:
Quote:
rule#17 wrote:
Whenever a character is transferred before the seller has moved the ISK received from the sale to another one of their characters, the Customer Support team will return that ISK to the rightful owner. The buyer cannot expect to receive both the character and the ISK that they paid to purchase it.

so the only moral choice you have is whether you transfer the isk yourself or wait for CCP to do it.

thats not what it says at all. and besides the english not bieng exactally clear in that rule. but it does not say that at all.
that rule states that if the seller tries to scam the buyer he wont get the isk and the char. this isnt the case. the seller didnt remove the isk and the sale is 100% complete and legit

Are we reading the same quote here ? Are you sure ? Because the language is quite clear there, even out of context and even if reading just the first sentence, but leaving absolutely no doubts when read in context and reading both sentences.

This is in case a sale has already happened but the character seller FORGOT to move the ISK he received for the character to another character before transferring ownership of the character.
The character buyer can not expect to get BOTH the character he bought and the ISK he paid for it, so the ISK will be moved out by the GMs to wherever it should have gone in the first place (after responding to a petition filed by either the buyer or the seller).
That much is absolutely crystal clear as far as I am concerned.

Furthermore, one can divine a few extra highly likely pieces of information given mostly public mostly standard CCP operational protocols.
That all above is, in case the buyer does not simply transfer the ISK out to another character of the seller himself, something which he probably shouldn't do since it makes tracking of suspected less-than-legitimate ISK movements harder, and should instead just petition the mistake made himself.
In the end, the ISK will be removed either way, with the possibility of a negative ISK wallet somewhere in case the buyer thought he could hide the ISK... and don't try to exploit that by making the negative wallet end up on a worthless disposable character or you might even risk getting banned for that. Might not be a certainty and some people might get away with it, but do you really want to risk that ?

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#14 - 2012-01-01 16:03:13 UTC
Put another way:

You're allowed to screw your fellow capsuleer over in many new and interesting ways in EVE.

Trying to screw over your fellow subscriber outside of EVE, and especially through the official character trading mechanics, will end badly for you. CCP takes a particularly dim view to that kind of behaviour…
Alara IonStorm
#15 - 2012-01-01 16:13:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Of course I would keep the ISK and profit off of the other players mistake. I have no moral qualms about doing such in this cut throat game. I enjoy the Shark like nature of EVE Online. I would not however screw over a friend or a newbie taking their first steps into EVE Online. A Friend depending on how close can be worth more then the ISK both socially and economically while Newbies honestly deserve a little slack while they test the waters but I always let them know that it is because they are new so they do not get the wrong impression.

Now if this was not a hypothetical but an instance of being able to skirt the rules then I would return the money because I will not cheat when it comes to the few rules this sandbox has.
Schalac
Apocalypse Reign
#16 - 2012-01-01 16:55:40 UTC
skin bag wrote:
this is a morality test for you eve players.
the question i pose is this.
let say you bought a char on forums. all the posts and sale were legit. everything confirmed from both sides isk and acct info as well as transfer. so the sale is 100% legal and complete.
now you log onto the char and the isk wasnt taken off by the old owner.
would you give the isk back or keep it?
lets see what your thoughts are.
remember this is hypothetical question

If you give the old owner the isk you are a nancy boy. He should of taken care of that before he sold it to you. Character sales themselves disgust me. **** the ****** that sold his account and **** you for buying it.

SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN!! http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schalac
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-01-01 18:21:24 UTC
Schalac wrote:
skin bag wrote:
this is a morality test for you eve players.
the question i pose is this.
let say you bought a char on forums. all the posts and sale were legit. everything confirmed from both sides isk and acct info as well as transfer. so the sale is 100% legal and complete.
now you log onto the char and the isk wasnt taken off by the old owner.
would you give the isk back or keep it?
lets see what your thoughts are.
remember this is hypothetical question

If you give the old owner the isk you are a nancy boy. He should of taken care of that before he sold it to you. Character sales themselves disgust me. **** the ****** that sold his account and **** you for buying it.


I didn't know thirteen-year-olds played EVE.

Dodixie > Hek
Kha'Vorn
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-01-01 20:33:13 UTC
ElQuirko wrote:
Schalac wrote:
skin bag wrote:
this is a morality test for you eve players.
the question i pose is this.
let say you bought a char on forums. all the posts and sale were legit. everything confirmed from both sides isk and acct info as well as transfer. so the sale is 100% legal and complete.
now you log onto the char and the isk wasnt taken off by the old owner.
would you give the isk back or keep it?
lets see what your thoughts are.
remember this is hypothetical question

If you give the old owner the isk you are a nancy boy. He should of taken care of that before he sold it to you. Character sales themselves disgust me. **** the ****** that sold his account and **** you for buying it.


I didn't know thirteen-year-olds played EVE.


ha.