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What was so important to hide in order to violate a Yulai codicil?
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Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#61 - 2015-07-26 05:57:09 UTC
And yet the ship is entirely unharmed and the Gnosis was retreating. No order to fire was given while it was active, and the titan was under the watchful eye of multiple logistics capable carriers.

No, sure, it was a terrible threat as it was leaving the graveyards.

Which is actually our point. It was ordered destroyed after it was done and was leaving, which suggests it has obtained something important, likely information garnered from a scan or other information gathering. This merits discussion and questioning.

Also, I'm not entirely sure anxious screaming counts as "formal and polite".
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2015-07-26 06:10:02 UTC
If Raish has any level of intelligence - and, well, he holds a leadership position in SOCT, so that's a fair assumption - he had an active communications link to a vastly less vulnerable data storage device while making that scan. It's a fair assumption to make that whatever he wanted to know, he discovered, and he has the data to back it up.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#63 - 2015-07-26 06:27:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
And yet the ship is entirely unharmed and the Gnosis was retreating. No order to fire was given while it was active, and the titan was under the watchful eye of multiple logistics capable carriers.

No, sure, it was a terrible threat as it was leaving the graveyards.

Which is actually our point. It was ordered destroyed after it was done and was leaving, which suggests it has obtained something important, likely information garnered from a scan or other information gathering. This merits discussion and questioning.

Also, I'm not entirely sure anxious screaming counts as "formal and polite".

It was certainly not retreating. I was watching it directly until it blew up and even at the end it was idling around way closer than the requested 100 kilometers from the Titan, showing no sign of aligning out to some place or preparing for warp. I was very well under the watchful eyes of logistics forces, but no one knows what harm or sabotage one can inflict to current Empire technology with Drifter technology. It could very well trigger a chain reaction in the Titan's reactors and cause catastrophic explosions. My best guess is that this is what Matshi Raish found out.
Whatever it is, however, Entosis Linking is an aggressive act aimed at compromising operation systems of the target. He refused to stop, even after several requests, which are all recorded. I am very certain that the Ninth Codicil does not cover these actions. It maybe does cover the first linking event if he had stopped and retreated, but not several ignored requests from an official navy commander.

You might want to check the logs in the other discussion; I do not see anxious screaming. While capital letters certainly indicate childish hue and cry in the capsuleer world's communication, a raised voice from an official navy commander to convey his authority does not qualify as screaming. Amarr navy personnel have more composure than most if not all capsuleers in the face of a threat.

While discussion and questioning are certainly in order, they should be based on actual events and facts and not romanticized or warped evidence.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
iyammarrok
Drunken Beaver Mining
Gnawthority
#64 - 2015-07-26 07:23:22 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Goldfinch wrote:
  • Anything that incurs a Weapons Flag is also subject to CONCORD retaliation
  • Matshi Raish is a Capsuleer. He is expected to observe the aggression rules in Hisec as set forth by Yulai Convention articles which also empower CONCORD

    • And CONCORD did not fire - therefore, he was not violating any aggression standards upheld by CONCORD.

    By the same token, neither the Empress, nor anyone following her orders, violated any laws. As I have said elsewhere, this is made manifest and obvious because (a) She got away with it, and (b) She had the biggest guns on the field - and more of them available if she needed them.



    One important caveat here.
    any navy can, at will, set someone to suspect or criminal within their own space, performing this action invalidates CONCORD threat response should that (now suspect/criminal) vessel be fired upon.

    as has been noted by some of her supporters, simply claiming an act or entity is criminal, does not make it so.

    To answer the question of whether other vessels were scanning the Avatar, I have been told that many vessels had the titan locked, and several forms of scan were underway at the time.

    The fact that the order to fire was given after the SoCT vessel had completed it's scans and begun to retreat is damning by it's very nature. Especially if we consider the nature of the only information known to have been gleaned by the use of an Entosis Link.

    That the empress would decide that the information gained during an investigation into possible 'existential threats' was worth killing to keep out of SoCT hands, is troubling indeed.

    -Idama Tertianus Rethelior

    Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.
    iyammarrok
    Drunken Beaver Mining
    Gnawthority
    #65 - 2015-07-26 07:51:56 UTC  |  Edited by: iyammarrok
    Rivr Luzade wrote:

    Whatever it is, however, Entosis Linking is an aggressive act aimed at compromising operation systems of the target.

    [snip]

    While discussion and questioning are certainly in order, they should be based on actual events and facts and not romanticized or warped evidence.



    Ok. actual events and facts.

    1) the Entosis link you are adamant was being used upon the Titan, cannot target and be activated upon capsuleer vessels.

    2) The drifter variant of an entosis link can.

    3) while an entosis link can, after several uses and days, cause the offlining of several key safety systems within sovereignty structures, this is likely, due to their very nature, purposeful.

    4) drifter variants of the entosis link do not appear to cause any adverse effects whatsoever.

    "While discussion and questioning are certainly in order, they should be based on actual events and facts and not romanticized or warped evidence."

    your own assertions do not follow your latter demand.

    -Idama Tertianus Rethelior

    Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.
    Rivr Luzade
    Coreli Corporation
    Pandemic Legion
    #66 - 2015-07-26 08:07:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
    How do you know that the Entosis Link in his vessel was the same technology we have access to? What makes you think that the Drifter EL do not cause adverse effects on the scanned systems? It is intriguing that you seem to know more about these links than the collective mind of the Empire scientific community.
    Whether it cannot be activated on capsuleer vessels is of no importance, it was used against the Empress' Titan, which puts your 1st point into question.
    That it purposefully takes days to compromise structures with the ELs we have access to, does not change the fact that the SOCT ship could use the link on the Titan. It is thus very unlikely that it's the same EL-Technology. It also does not change the fact that ELing anything is an aggressive act, which the SOCT person was requested to cease and desist, but chose to ignore and to continue to activate aggressive modules against the Empress' vessel.

    You, among other people, are, however, very adamant about that this was just "scanning" like it was a pesky ship or cargo scanner. Several capsuleers used ship and cargo scanners on the Empress' titan and she did not display any concern about these. However, actively trying to compromise her ship's systems and function is not "just scanning". Thus, my points stand.

    UI Improvement Collective

    My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
    iyammarrok
    Drunken Beaver Mining
    Gnawthority
    #67 - 2015-07-26 08:26:17 UTC
    Rivr Luzade wrote:
    How do you know that the Entosis Link in his vessel was the same technology we have access to? What makes you think that the Drifter EL do not cause adverse effects on the scanned systems? It is intriguing that you seem to know more about these links than the collective mind of the Empire scientific community.
    Whether it cannot be activated on capsuleer vessels is of no importance, it was used against the Empress' Titan, which puts your 1st point into question.
    That it purposefully takes days to compromise structures with the ELs we have access to, does not change the fact that the SOCT ship could use the link on the Titan. It is thus very unlikely that it's the same EL-Technology. It also does not change the fact that ELing anything is an aggressive act, which the SOCT person was requested to cease and desist, but chose to ignore and to continue to activate aggressive modules against the Empress' vessel.

    You, among other people, are, however, very adamant about that this was just "scanning" like it was a pesky ship or cargo scanner. Several capsuleers used ship and cargo scanners on the Empress' titan and she did not display any concern about these. However, actively trying to compromise her ship's systems and function is not "just scanning". Thus, my points stand.


    The CONCORD generated ship loss notification shows that he had a standard Entosis link fitted.
    The Entosis link has been tested upon all classes of capsuleer vessel. It does not activate.

    I have personally been scanned by drifter variant entosis links on multiple occasions, they have no adverse effects.

    While the use of a standard entosis link is indeed an act of aggression, the gnosis did not gain a suspect flag until it desisted in it's scan. This fact alone shows that the scan made was not an aggressive act.

    The fact that the suspect flag occurred after the end of the scan, is proof enough that the Navy personnel present set the Gnosis suspect manually in order to allow capsuleer combat against the vessel without CONCORD interference.

    Your repeated assertions therefore that the scan performed was an attempt to "compromise her ship's systems" are based not on fact, but on opinion or 'romanticized or warped evidence'

    As it has been PROVEN, that the Entosis link that you repeatedly refer to, cannot be activated upon any capsuleer piloted vessel, then any further claims as to it's effect are completely void.
    Your argument and point, therefore collapses under it's own weight.

    Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.
    Haruchai Khan
    Doomheim
    #68 - 2015-07-26 08:35:51 UTC
    It should not surprise anyone that subjects of the Empress accept the Amarr version of events unquestioningly.

    What should concern all of the other governments of New Eden is that this action, in context, strongly indicates the Empire is seeking to establish a military advantage. First, we have the announcement of new technology for battleships. Now, the Society is concerned enough about developments to want to scan the Empress' flagship on the pretext of 'existential threat'. The information gained from that scan is important enough for the Empress to demand his utter destruction.

    It is legally arguable that while the Empire promulgates her doctrine on Reclaiming in its unreformed character, Amarr is - by definition - an existential threat to the rest of the cluster. Who would argue that if Amarr once again held an significant advantage in power, they would not 'reclaim' all others? That they would not immediately discard all treaties as heresy?

    The only restraint on the Empire which forces them to respect the rights of others and the treaties they have signed is opposing power. Thus, a balance of power. Were this balance to become disturbed too far in their favour, they would immediately return to enslaving other worlds. All other governments and organisations therefore have the right to take defensive actions which preserve the balance, and it is in this context that I would argue Elder Raish was acting in the best interests of New Eden. The peaceful acquisition of knowledge that prevents an arms race or an offensive first strike capability can only be good for maintaining the balance.

    We can only hope that the Society had sufficient data links that the information has been recorded elsewhere.

    One other thought. The Empress ordered the destruction of the Gnosis after it had gained its information. She must suspect that the data had already been sent elsewhere, thus the destruction was theatre only. The Empress has, in the past, made moves to bring Amarr into line with more progressive and cooperative relations with the other governments, despite fierce internal opposition from hardline traditionalists.

    Maybe there exists a 'super-weapon' that may soon be deployed offensively. Maybe the Empress knows that whatever advantage this might offer now, it gives hardliners an excuse for an immediate and major war, which can long-term only harm Amarr. Maybe the odd timing of the destruction of Elder Raish's ship allows its data to be shared and counter-measures taken, but in so doing she appears, not as an appeaser, but to her religious fanatics as an uncompromising, martial imperator, fearless of CONCORD if the defence of the realm.

    The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.
    Rivr Luzade
    Coreli Corporation
    Pandemic Legion
    #69 - 2015-07-26 09:01:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
    iyammarrok wrote:
    As it has been PROVEN, that the Entosis link that you repeatedly refer to, cannot be activated upon any capsuleer piloted vessel, then any further claims as to it's effect are completely void.
    Your argument and point, therefore collapses under it's own weight.

    Do you really believe that the Jove supported SOCT could not have a modulated, altered version disguised as a simple T2 EL we know? That is described as naive at best. But continue to believe it, by all means.

    What you want to depict as warped evidence in my assertion of the matter is also interesting. Whether the EL cannot be activated on capsuleer vessels is important to the matter at hand how? The EL was activated repeatedly on the Empress' Titan, not a capsuleer vessel. That is an aggressive act against her ship, which was not stopped after repeated requests. He never desisted, it stopped only after he "learned what they needed to learn". That is not desisting, that is completing a mission. The fact that the navy did not suspect flag this aggression right away only shows that they were expecting a peaceful desisting from him. However, after outright boasting in local that he had accomplished his mission, a suspect flag to allow his termination was a completely comprehensible course of action.
    An interesting turn of events would be if Jamyl Sarum I was indeed a capsuleer, as rumors say. This would mean that EL could be activated on capsuleer vessels. Interesting to see how that will end.

    Just because you cannot detect any adverse affects on your ship directly after the linking event, does not rule out or prove lack of any insertion of hidden, disguised code or otherwise compromising elements. It currently cannot be proven that no adverse elements are inserted or effects take place delayed. Saying otherwise is also nothing but naive.

    I wonder where my argument crumbles. vOv

    UI Improvement Collective

    My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
    Alizebeth Amalath
    Doomheim
    #70 - 2015-07-26 10:02:17 UTC
    As a quick clarification:
    The Empress is a capsuleer. All the heirs of Emperor Heideran VII were. None, however, were clones. At the Inauguration, each of their pods' TEBS scanners were disable and they self destructed their pods in submission to God's will. In His Divine Mercy, the Lord God returned Empress Jamyl Sarum I to us, to save us from the Minmatar attack and lead the Empire with her Holy wisdom. May the Lord preserve her and guide her.

    News source.
    Lyn Farel
    Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
    Khimi Harar
    #71 - 2015-07-26 10:31:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
    Several factors are to be taken into account:

    - CONCORD ninth codicil invokes the right to scan any ship freely in search of existential threats. This implies that something aboard that Avatar class titan was considered as a potential threat by SoCT, that initiated a scan.

    - The fact that CONCORD did not act upon the Society scan makes apparent that it was legal and probably covered by the ninth codicil as well as what makes scanning operation between capsuleers legal.

    - The fact that CONCORD di not act against the Imperial Guard when the fleet engaged the SoCT vessel indicates that the Amarr Empire probably used its sovereign right to designate targets however it likes in its own sovereign space.

    - The SCT Enlightment was the only one asked to leave under threats of destruction. All other capsuleer ships colliding, scanning, or even using fireworks on the various military vessels of the Imperial Guard and Her Majesty's ship were never threatened. This implies that the SoCT was considered here a direct threat to the Amarr Empire, or to the Empress fleet at the very least.

    - An entosis module was used and somehow connected with Her Majesty's ship, contrary to any normal behavior of those modules. Either the SoCT used a different modified version of those links, or either Her Majesty's ship contained something unique that allowed entosis interaction.

    - SCT Enlightment complied with the ultimatum sent by the Imperial Guard, and yet was ordered to be destroyed when retiring, after the scan was completed. This directly implies that the IG considered that something of value had been scanned, and that this something was meant to remain hidden.

    - Considering the Elder Mentor actions, I would assume that gathering the data was probably priority number one, and the rest only secondary, including the safety of the ship.

    Make any conclusions out of this as you wish... I still mark that day as a warning for when something eventually leaks out.

    I find it interesting, though, that the Empire chose in less than a month to violate again an intergalactic treaty.

    Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
    There is something to the Empress that we don't know; the Society, however, knows something more.


    If there is something I have learned, it is that the Society always knows something more.



    "Disclaimer: this message does not represent corporate policy or my superior's views in any way and is purely my own statement."
    Lyn Farel
    Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
    Khimi Harar
    #72 - 2015-07-26 10:38:17 UTC
    Andreus Ixiris wrote:
    Sinjin Mokk wrote:
    Why is this even a debate?

    The EMPRESS OF AMARR made a decision to remove a threat to her person in Amarr space. She owes none of you an explanation.

    The Amarr Empire is a CONCORD signatory. Just because you people believe that an invisible supreme being for whose evidence there exists no serious scientific proof allows certain people among your number to do pretty much whatever you wish doesn't mean that you can go about violating CONCORD's charter on a whim here in the real world.

    And let's face it, if this had been anyone else - Shakor or Roden, in particular - the Empire would be clamouring for blood.

    Also, Mokk, a personal note - you probably shut the hell up whenever matters of the Empire are afoot. Don't think your alleged sudden rediscovery of your roots excuses your tenure with the Angel Cartel.


    Can we leave the ad-hominem on religion at the door, please...?

    If I recall correctly, the Minmatar Republic, the Caldari State, the Ida and even the Garoun culture all have their own deeply ingrained religions, and they all involve invisible supreme beings.
    Akrasjel Lanate
    Immemorial Coalescence Administration
    Immemorial Coalescence
    #73 - 2015-07-26 10:52:59 UTC
    It doesn't matter if its aggressive or a non-aggressive module in this case. Just because you can do it doesnt you mean you should especially against a person that represents the authority of one of the Empires.

    CEO of Lanate Industries

    Citizen of Solitude
    Soren Tyrhanos
    PIE Inc.
    Khimi Harar
    #74 - 2015-07-26 11:02:11 UTC
    Makoto Priano wrote:

    If I were to break into your home and take pictures of you, it'd unprecedented invasion. If you're in public and I take pictures of you there, you have no recourse at all. If the systems aboard a vessel in space are not secure against the scans that CONCORD clearly doesn't consider worthy of a supect tag, then they are near enough to public.


    Perhaps this might be the case in other Empires. Within all of Amarr space the word of the Empress is absolute and in this specific instance in which Mr Reish offered a barely acceptable explanation as to the purpose of his presence and the nature of his scans her actions more than justified.

    As others have made clear the Empress is above the rebuke of mere capsuleers with self entitled notions of authority, she needs offer no explanation, she needs offer no apology.
    Mizhara Del'thul
    Kyn'aldrnari
    #75 - 2015-07-26 11:44:46 UTC
    Andreus Ixiris wrote:
    If Raish has any level of intelligence - and, well, he holds a leadership position in SOCT, so that's a fair assumption - he had an active communications link to a vastly less vulnerable data storage device while making that scan. It's a fair assumption to make that whatever he wanted to know, he discovered, and he has the data to back it up.


    Wouldn't even need that. Neural encoding. Pop goes the pod and the bloodthirsty bodyguards ensured the data transmission was done for him, and if they somehow failed to take the pod out, he could just warp off with said data equally intact. The SoCT aren't fools, as you say, and they would have predicted these consequences.

    Whatever he obtained and the clone queen didn't want him to get away with... is out there somewhere.

    It'll be interesting to see what it is.
    Corraidhin Farsaidh
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #76 - 2015-07-26 11:44:52 UTC
    Utari Onzo wrote:
    Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
    So in short, it was more important for her Imperial Witchiness to prevent him from getting away with the scan data (which he obtained in accordance with the Yulai Convention) than at least pretending to comply with international laws and accords. This isn't suspicious at all and we should all stop asking questions, surely.

    At least her claim that we will never dare set foot there again was quite simply disproven as we came, spoke and then delivered token gifts to the graveyard. With honor and a crooked smile as Aldrith was quick to fire upon us.

    I hope the symbolism doesn't require further explanation.


    Please provide me the CONCORD law that allows one to use what appears to be an Entosis link on a Sovereign CONCORD Signatory's Leader's vessel.

    Simpy, saying something was legal doesn't make it so. If CONCORD come back, and say it violated some treaty then I'll continue to retort that it was Amarr Space, and they were ordered to stop several times.


    Actually in law just saying something is illegal does not make it so. If the ship in question ws not marked criminal by the DED then by definition no illegal activity tok place other than the destruction of the said vessel.
    Ollie Rundle
    #77 - 2015-07-26 12:58:25 UTC
    One wonders what might have happened had Raish simply said 'Alright, complying with your request' while departing rather than crowing about how his job was done and he had what he'd come there for like some mustache-twirling antagonist in a B-grade entertainment option.
    Sinjin Mokk
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #78 - 2015-07-26 13:32:35 UTC
    Andreus Ixiris wrote:
    Sinjin Mokk wrote:
    Why is this even a debate?

    The EMPRESS OF AMARR made a decision to remove a threat to her person in Amarr space. She owes none of you an explanation.

    The Amarr Empire is a CONCORD signatory. Just because you people believe that an invisible supreme being for whose evidence there exists no serious scientific proof allows certain people among your number to do pretty much whatever you wish doesn't mean that you can go about violating CONCORD's charter on a whim here in the real world.

    And let's face it, if this had been anyone else - Shakor or Roden, in particular - the Empire would be clamouring for blood.

    Also, Mokk, a personal note - you probably shut the hell up whenever matters of the Empire are afoot. Don't think your alleged sudden rediscovery of your roots excuses your tenure with the Angel Cartel.




    Khanid is also a signatory. The Kingdom is ok with this situation. So is the Royal Navy. Apparently so is the State, the Republic and EVEN YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT. All signatories, all silent on the matter. Perhaps you should take a cue from that?

    As I stated during our fencing match last night (nice lunge on your part, but your ability to riposte is lacking), my God, my King, my Navy, my Empire and CONCORD all consider me to be in good standing, faithful and doing the right thing. None of us answer to you and your misconceptions.

    You would probably have a happier and less stress-filled existence if you just learned to accept things. Having a fire in your shorts is understandable kid, but maybe you should go sit in a vacuum for a bit. You are going to find that in life, things aren't going to fit nicely into your ideas of how they should be. Stop being so self-entitled and your life will improve dramatically.

    Have a pleasant day.

    "Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."
    Che Biko
    Alexylva Paradox
    #79 - 2015-07-26 13:51:18 UTC
    Sinjin Mokk wrote:
    All signatories, all silent on the matter. Perhaps you should take a cue from that?
    Taking cues from silence is something I cannot recommend. Asuming silence means either agreement or disagreement can lead to complications, as I've seen on various occassions.

    Coordination Channel for Consolidated Space Rescue Cooperation

    Open Letter to the Aidonis Foundation Directorate
    Odelya d'Hanguest
    Order of St. Severian
    #80 - 2015-07-26 14:06:15 UTC
    It is the Society of Conscious Thought that has to provide an explanation for its intrusive, inappropriate and arrogant behaviour that not only constituted an offence towards the Empress, but also towards the blood of the martyrs of Mekhios.