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What was so important to hide in order to violate a Yulai codicil?

Author
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#21 - 2015-07-25 22:28:22 UTC
Prove that it wasn't a cyberwarfare attack, that had knocked some of the ship's systems offline.

Did the Empress open fire herself ?

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#22 - 2015-07-25 22:33:09 UTC
Valerie Valate wrote:
Prove that it wasn't a cyberwarfare attack, that had knocked some of the ship's systems offline.

Did the Empress open fire herself ?

Soil herself with some heathen? Please.

How about they prove they didn't have some Entosis Link receiver onboard? I don't know. Recent tests show that Entosis Link does not even activate on other ships. Only Drifters can do that to others and as far as I remember they do not leave their shps intact when they explode.
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#23 - 2015-07-25 22:33:35 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
So? I used to catch thieves who had finished thieving all the time. Generally speaking, we mostly punish people after they've finished doing wrong.


The refrain from the Empire so far has been 'clear and present danger,' but he ceases to be a danger the moment he's leaving. All of these cries of 'threat to the Empress' hold no value if he's already headed away. What's more, it doesn't sound as if Raish was looking for state secrets, or secret ways to undermine the Empress. Maker help me, he's Society. They're academics, not assassins.

Frankly, all this does is make me wonder what he's looking for.

And to be honest, Tuulinen, I'm going to side with the person who seeks knowledge in most cases.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#24 - 2015-07-25 22:43:12 UTC
A thousand years ago, the Imperial Guard shot and killed a thief who had stolen one of the then Empress Consort's undergarments.

He was heading away from the palace, and was thus no threat to the Empress.

Makes you wonder what he was looking for, doesn't it ?

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Goldfinch
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2015-07-25 22:45:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldfinch
The following is our legal opinion.


  1. Matshi Raish had an Entosis Link equipped on his ship, as per the Kill Report. His ship was also armed to the teeth with offensive modules.
  2. Activating an Entosis Link incurs a Weapons Flag
  3. Anything that incurs a Weapons Flag is also subject to CONCORD retaliation
  4. Matshi Raish is a Capsuleer. He is expected to observe the aggression rules in Hisec as set forth by Yulai Convention articles which also empower CONCORD
  5. Matshi Raish quotes a ninth codicil to the Yulai Convention. However, we are not aware of any Yulai Convention article that allows a non-CONCORD entity to take an action incurring a Weapons Flag against another non-Criminal flagged entity in High Security Space.
  6. Special security precautions are to be expected when a dignitary like the Empress traverses weapons free space. Activating an offensive module (the Entosis Link) would justify an reflexive security response.
  7. CONCORD did not retaliate against weapons free offensive action against Matshi Raish's ship, which indicates to us that no Yulai Convention laws were broken by the Empress or any allied ships.


Conclusion: Matshi Raish may have been correctly interpreting ninth codicil to the Yulai Convention when considering his intent, but his execution of that intent using an offensive module and incurring a Weapons Flag would be against Yulai Convention rules.

\J/

veiled and bound

my origin story (on eve-backstage)

Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#26 - 2015-07-25 22:46:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Makoto Priano
Detain, try, execute according to the law. Or does the rule of law not apply, when the Empress disagrees with the Yulai Convention?

Oh, and Goldfinch. Were I to operate a Bastion device, I incur a weapons flag. Is this to say I should be freely engaged by all and sundry?

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Goldfinch
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2015-07-25 22:50:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldfinch
Makoto Priano wrote:
Detain, try, execute according to the law. Or does the rule of law not apply, when the Empress disagrees with the Yulai Convention?


An assassin cannot have any reasonable expectation of detention and trial in a volatile situation where his would-be target is not secured by their protection detail, and he has already discharged a weapon.



Edit:

Quote:
Oh, and Goldfinch. Were I to operate a Bastion device, I incur a weapons flag. Is this to say I should be freely engaged by all and sundry?


Apples and oranges. An offensive module, by definition, must be able to target another ship or entity.

\J/

veiled and bound

my origin story (on eve-backstage)

Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#28 - 2015-07-25 22:58:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Makoto Priano
This hurts my brain.

Alright. We have an elder mentor of an organization that runs educational institutions conducting scans in what is essentially a public place, in a Gnosis, on an Avatar. What you're calling an offensive module does no damage, and has no effect on capsuleer ships. I know this, having tested these things extensively.

Explain to me how this makes him an assassin who discharged his weapon, a credible threat despite the established fact that CONCORD clearly didn't care. Explain it like I'm five, because your logic is frankly baffling to me now.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#29 - 2015-07-25 23:04:08 UTC
What kind of idiot would think approaching any military ship unannounced, never mind the empress, during a public speech is a good idea? Who cares what she's hiding I just find how trusting the imperial navy was as suspect. Is that not a little strange or am I the only one who finds their weak security odd?

Roll
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#30 - 2015-07-25 23:05:25 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
This hurts my brain.

Alright. We have an elder mentor of an organization that runs educational institutions


Boy, are you naive.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#31 - 2015-07-25 23:08:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
Goldfinch wrote:
  • Anything that incurs a Weapons Flag is also subject to CONCORD retaliation
  • Matshi Raish is a Capsuleer. He is expected to observe the aggression rules in Hisec as set forth by Yulai Convention articles which also empower CONCORD

  • And CONCORD did not fire - therefore, he was not violating any aggression standards upheld by CONCORD.

    By the same token, neither the Empress, nor anyone following her orders, violated any laws. As I have said elsewhere, this is made manifest and obvious because (a) She got away with it, and (b) She had the biggest guns on the field - and more of them available if she needed them.

    Does anyone really think there are any circumstances where CONCORD is going to open fire on a head of state in their own space? CONCORD's big and all, but fleets of thousands of super-battleships don't build themselves; CONCORD still requires funding by the Empires. They're not going to throw away a quarter of it inciting the entire Amarr Empire to hate them.
    Makoto Priano
    Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
    Arataka Research Consortium
    #32 - 2015-07-25 23:12:03 UTC
    Vess, the Empress's ship had been scanned a number of times before it had cleared the Emperor Family Station in Amarr. During her appearance last week, she had been rammed repeatedly by Capsuleers who wanted to impede her travel. Last time and this time, I believe pilots had engaged her despite CONCORD rules, simply to make a political statement.

    Unfortunately, this is a normal situation when a political leader's ship enters space.

    My issue here is this: Raish's ship was downed under suspect circumstances. While clearly the situation was provocative, he was not clearly hostile, nor aggressive. All I want is more information, to establish what exactly Raish thought he was researching, and why exactly the Empress thought his scans were so much more threatening than anyone else's. Had she stated he was attempting to suborn ship's systems, or had the Empress's ship began to malfunction, then he was obviously a clear and present danger. Were it a Matari attempting novel scans, I would likewise not question the situation.

    However, failing those things, we're presented with a situation where Raish, a representative of a reputable academic institution, was met with a response disproportionate to his actions.

    This raises questions.

    That the Empire loyalists seem intent on completely dismissing my concern is frankly insulting.

    Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

    Jaret Victorian
    Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
    Arataka Research Consortium
    #33 - 2015-07-25 23:14:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaret Victorian
    Goldfinch wrote:
    The following is our legal opinion.
    Conclusion: Matshi Raish may have been correctly interpreting ninth codicil to the Yulai Convention when considering his intent, but his execution of that intent using an offensive module and incurring a Weapons Flag would be against Yulai Convention rules.

    The thing is that he was interpreting it correctly as CONCORD did not intervene. He used his device... whatever, more than once and was only set free-for-all after that order.

    All my Shield Emission Systems along with the drones that were on his ship went offline as soon as that happened. After he said he was done and complied with the order to leave.
    Valerie Valate
    Church of The Crimson Saviour
    #34 - 2015-07-25 23:14:26 UTC
    Makoto Priano wrote:
    All I want is more information, to establish what exactly Raish thought he was researching.


    The vulnerability of Imperial capital ships to Entosis link cyberwarfare.

    Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

    Goldfinch
    Garoun Investment Bank
    Gallente Federation
    #35 - 2015-07-25 23:19:21 UTC

    Makoto Priano wrote:
    This hurts my brain.

    Alright. We have an elder mentor of an organization that runs educational institutions conducting scans in what is essentially a public place, in a Gnosis, on an Avatar. What you're calling an offensive module does no damage, and has no effect on capsuleer ships. I know this, having tested these things extensively.

    Explain to me how this makes him an assassin who discharged his weapon, a credible threat despite the established fact that CONCORD clearly didn't care. Explain it like I'm five, because your logic is frankly baffling to me now.


    We are in uncharted space with Drifter Technology. We appreciate your efforts and those of [IKAME] to decipher and determine the capabilities of the Entosis Link.

    Nonetheless, we may be forced to conclude that your analysis (specifically the test conducted by Ms. Lagann against a Capsuleer ship) must have been incomplete, since it appears the Empress's ship** was indeed targeted by Matshi Raish with an Entosis Link, which he subequently discharged.

    Being that your knowledge of Drifter Technology does not include information that Matshi Raish may have been privy to, it would not be unreasonable to consider the activation of the module as an offensive act. We understand you want to defend this person, but it seems to us that you may not be fully aware of what exactly he was doing.

    Drifters are the threat to the cluster. They have invaded Amarr Empire en masse and opened fire on allies in view of Emperor Family Academy. Do you consider it prudent to react callously to undocumented, offensive use of their technology?



    ** Please do not interpret our statement as a comment on the Empress's identity as a Capsuleer or a clone or any such heretical supposition.

    \J/

    veiled and bound

    my origin story (on eve-backstage)

    Lunarisse Aspenstar
    Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
    Khimi Harar
    #36 - 2015-07-25 23:21:20 UTC
    Goldfinch wrote:
    The following is our legal opinion.


    1. Matshi Raish had an Entosis Link equipped on his ship, as per the Kill Report. His ship was also armed to the teeth with offensive modules.
    2. Activating an Entosis Link incurs a Weapons Flag
    3. Anything that incurs a Weapons Flag is also subject to CONCORD retaliation
    4. Matshi Raish is a Capsuleer. He is expected to observe the aggression rules in Hisec as set forth by Yulai Convention articles which also empower CONCORD
    5. Matshi Raish quotes a ninth codicil to the Yulai Convention. However, we are not aware of any Yulai Convention article that allows a non-CONCORD entity to take an action incurring a Weapons Flag against another non-Criminal flagged entity in High Security Space.
    6. Special security precautions are to be expected when a dignitary like the Empress traverses weapons free space. Activating an offensive module (the Entosis Link) would justify an reflexive security response.
    7. CONCORD did not retaliate against weapons free offensive action against Matshi Raish's ship, which indicates to us that no Yulai Convention laws were broken by the Empress or any allied ships.


    Conclusion: Matshi Raish may have been correctly interpreting ninth codicil to the Yulai Convention when considering his intent, but his execution of that intent using an offensive module and incurring a Weapons Flag would be against Yulai Convention rules.


    Thank you for the thorough and insightful legal analysis.
    Makoto Priano
    Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
    Arataka Research Consortium
    #37 - 2015-07-25 23:24:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Makoto Priano
    As said, suspect circumstances.

    Had the Amarr opened fire the moment Raish had initiated an Entosis Link, I would have considered it no issue. He was, however, operating that link for several minutes, and had then had declared that he was done. It was at this point that he was engaged.

    While clearly acting provocatively in a situation like this will result in consequences, and that consequence was the destruction of the Society Gnosis, the entire situation raises questions.

    Please do not brush these questions away arbitrarily.

    Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

    Deitra Vess
    Non-Hostile Target
    Wild Geese.
    #38 - 2015-07-25 23:26:51 UTC
    Knowing what he was researching I can understand the desire to know that. Though I do also wonder why as someone of a reputable academy he couldn't request to make these scans. Anyone writing a paper at a scholarly level would have to ask permission to use other peoples work, or to use their equipment. What he did is not the same as if you or I did it, that's absolutely right. Really I don't get why anyone was allowed near her in general.
    Arrendis
    TK Corp
    #39 - 2015-07-26 00:07:09 UTC
    Because with multiple Aeons as an escort, she was in no danger whatsoever from the combined firepower of every subcapital ship present. Apparently, she felt the Entosis Link was a threat - or perhaps the research was.
    Sahriah BloodStone
    No.Mercy
    Triumvirate.
    #40 - 2015-07-26 00:30:57 UTC
    Goldfinch wrote:



  • Matshi Raish quotes a ninth codicil to the Yulai Convention. However, we are not aware of any Yulai Convention article that allows a non-CONCORD entity to take an action incurring a Weapons Flag against another non-Criminal flagged entity in High .

  • Perhaps if CONCORD was more competent and willing to release the documents pertaining to the laws we should be following, miscommunication like this wouldn't happen.

    Regardless, the Gnosis was no threat to a titan, escorted by a fleet of super carriers and Capsuleers and was retreating at the time of its destruction. They simply could have taken him into custody instead of destroying the vessel, then perhaps they would have someone to interrogate instead of being blind to his intentions.

    The Empress has a trigger finger not unlike most Capsuleers.

    Sahriah Bloodstone

    No.Mercy // Triumvirate

    "Never underestimate your enemy or disrespect its abilities. If you do, you shall become the hunted "