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Starting skills levels should increase for new players
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Avaelica Kuershin
Paper Cats
#201 - 2015-07-25 04:11:38 UTC
Daerrol wrote:
I really think some basic skills shoudl be removed/granted Level 5.
Capacitor related skills (Regen and capacity)
Weapon Upgrades V
CPU Ugrades V
Gunnery V
Missle Launcher Operation V
Spaceship Command V
Trade (start at level 4)
Racial Frigate (start at 4)
Racial Small weapon system (Start at 4)
Drones V


These are pretty entry level skills in their respective fields. Few of them unlock any Tech 2 but they are pretty needed for even basic operation of a starship. I realize you can train all this in only a month or two but really -all- true newbies probably should train these skills so they can dip their toes effectively in a variety of playstyles. As it is now, you can't even really do market trading as you have to spend 3-4 days training the damn skill!


I feel you're overemphasizing the importance of some skills and neglecting others.
With those skills and no others, you'd still be limited to 2 targets, no AB, no MWD, no E-war (except civilian modules?)
Most of them I only had at IV for quite some time (Dones was my first V)

As a new pilot, I'd pick up modules from rats I couldn't immediately use. Perhaps finding out what skill I needed was a good learning experience, perhaps it's a hindrance. I can see both points of view.

It's certainly an interesting topic of discussion.


(And as it happens, there's one skill in that list I still don't have at V (it's in the queue))
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#202 - 2015-07-25 04:12:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Webvan
baltec1 wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:


About the only BLATANT abuse of the system would be trial accounts and HS ganking. Easy, just don't give the SP until they are either subbed or plexed. No problem.


That's a myth.

Because of the ip rule ragarding trial accounts and regular accounts? I could do it, two separate internet connections and multiple computers as I have. It would be a pain though, likely better to just multi-box regular accounts.


But this thread though, seems just people wanting more SP for their alts. GD peeps, that's fine, I likes GD, but mostly the concern of most here is just here and not in other forum places like the new citizen forum. I mean for peeps that are posting anyway, not speaking of ingame efforts which is commendable.

I think the best effort and example for helping newbies in an mmo, probably old UO. We had regular players called volunteers that were given info and access to newbies; their location and special comms to interact with them. Was just perfect, vets intrusted with guiding newbies in their first few days and weeks of the game. Far more alluring for a newbie than to just be handed a bunch of skill and a hard to understand tutorial. Always, it's the Vets that bring in the new players (UO was growing fast then), not slick tutorial scripts and not skill point bribes and easy play.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#203 - 2015-07-25 05:26:55 UTC
Webvan wrote:


I think the best effort and example for helping newbies in an mmo, probably old UO. We had regular players called volunteers that were given info and access to newbies; their location and special comms to interact with them. Was just perfect, vets intrusted with guiding newbies in their first few days and weeks of the game. Far more alluring for a newbie than to just be handed a bunch of skill and a hard to understand tutorial. Always, it's the Vets that bring in the new players (UO was growing fast then), not slick tutorial scripts and not skill point bribes and easy play.


In a way I agree. Not sure we could do the same with Eve though given the nature of Eve and its culture. That is, a mentor program could be used by some in game to take advantage of new players. Of course, I suppose you could make such behavior similar to ganking new players in a noob system....

However, heavily stressing that players will find more enjoyment by joining a player run corp could help with retention...at least that is my opinion.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Avvy
Doomheim
#204 - 2015-07-25 05:32:32 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Avvy wrote:

Where options are concerned I think you're just trying to side step the issue.


But you didn't answer my question.

So why do you care when its not even going to effect you?


I think you are too literal in your thinking.

What options does a player have if we give him

Capacitor related skills (Regen and capacity) to V
Weapon Upgrades V
CPU Ugrades V
Gunnery V
Missle Launcher Operation V
Spaceship Command V
Trade (start at level 4)
Racial Frigate (start at 4)
Racial Small weapon system (Start at 4)
Drones V?

Great if you are combat oriented but it limits your options if you want to do something else.

You know its funny Eve players love to trot out opportunity cost, but I've secretly I've doubted most Eve players really get opportunity cost. Not really, not outside of "if I mine my own minerals they are free."

Every time I chose to train a given skill there is an opportunity cost (the next best skill I could have trained). When I make that choice I understand the opportunity cost.

When the game or some other set of players make the choice they do not suffer the opportunity cost and hence there is little to no incentive to understand the opportunity cost for each player--i.e. the players preference ordering. Even the path of type of combat ships might vary from player to player. The more SP you put into skills for a new player the more opportunity cost you are imposing on him without understanding that players preferences. In short you are being an overbearing arrogant know-it-all.

Or let me put it differently, how about I pick your next 1 million SP based on what I would like to train (for your main, not your alt)? No? Geee, what a shock. Roll

Oh, and perhaps you need to train reading comprehension immediately,

Quote:
Me, I don't need extra SP. Don't get me wrong, I'd gladly take if offered, but I'll be fine without it.



Why would anyone choose that set of skills when they have a limited pool of sp to use..

I think you don't give new players enough credit that they can actually work a few things out for themselves.

You sound more like an overbearing parent who thinks he knows best and you are calling me arrogant.

You still haven't answered that question, you just skirt around it as usual.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#205 - 2015-07-25 05:50:42 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Avvy wrote:

Where options are concerned I think you're just trying to side step the issue.


But you didn't answer my question.

So why do you care when its not even going to effect you?


I think you are too literal in your thinking.

What options does a player have if we give him

Capacitor related skills (Regen and capacity) to V
Weapon Upgrades V
CPU Ugrades V
Gunnery V
Missle Launcher Operation V
Spaceship Command V
Trade (start at level 4)
Racial Frigate (start at 4)
Racial Small weapon system (Start at 4)
Drones V?

Great if you are combat oriented but it limits your options if you want to do something else.

You know its funny Eve players love to trot out opportunity cost, but I've secretly I've doubted most Eve players really get opportunity cost. Not really, not outside of "if I mine my own minerals they are free."

Every time I chose to train a given skill there is an opportunity cost (the next best skill I could have trained). When I make that choice I understand the opportunity cost.

When the game or some other set of players make the choice they do not suffer the opportunity cost and hence there is little to no incentive to understand the opportunity cost for each player--i.e. the players preference ordering. Even the path of type of combat ships might vary from player to player. The more SP you put into skills for a new player the more opportunity cost you are imposing on him without understanding that players preferences. In short you are being an overbearing arrogant know-it-all.

Or let me put it differently, how about I pick your next 1 million SP based on what I would like to train (for your main, not your alt)? No? Geee, what a shock. Roll

Oh, and perhaps you need to train reading comprehension immediately,

Quote:
Me, I don't need extra SP. Don't get me wrong, I'd gladly take if offered, but I'll be fine without it.



Why would anyone choose that set of skills when they have a limited pool of sp to use..

I think you don't give new players enough credit that they can actually work a few things out for themselves.

You sound more like an overbearing parent who thinks he knows best and you are calling me arrogant.

You still haven't answered that question, you just skirt around it as usual.


Apparently you cannot read or click a link.

"Me, I don't need extra SP. Don't get me wrong, I'd gladly take if offered, but I'll be fine without it."--Teckos Pech

JFC.

And, no many new players are not going to appreciate some of the finer points of the skills system. But at the same time I'd favor a system that gives them some choice, but at the same time will limit where they can assign SP.

If for example CCP gave starting SP of N million SP (where N > 0) and I wanted an alt who could mine, I wouldn't just stuff it all into mining barges. I'd go stick it in PG Management, CPU Management, the cap skills, and so forth. These skills will enhance any ship that character uses. I'd keep going with these blah, generic skills. When done with that I'd shift over to shield skills, then finally ship skills and maybe drones if N were large enough. But I know this after nearly 8 years (granted after about a year I knew this kind of stuff too). But a brand new player...I could see a player sticking SP into both projectiles and lasers while having SP stuck in Gallente or Caldari ships. And while there were some doctrines a few years ago with Amarr ships and Minmatar guns, I don't think there are too many doctrines that mix racial hulls and guns. Hell, one problem lots of new players make is they'll stick different size guns on a ship, mix tank, and other goofiness. They'll even be out there with partially fit ships (and, cough...cough some of this is from...ahem...personal experience Oops ).

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Avvy
Doomheim
#206 - 2015-07-25 06:05:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Teckos Pech wrote:



Apparently you cannot read or click a link.

"Me, I don't need extra SP. Don't get me wrong, I'd gladly take if offered, but I'll be fine without it."--Teckos Pech

JFC.

And, no many new players are not going to appreciate some of the finer points of the skills system. But at the same time I'd favor a system that gives them some choice, but at the same time will limit where they can assign SP.

If for example CCP gave starting SP of N million SP (where N > 0) and I wanted an alt who could mine, I wouldn't just stuff it all into mining barges. I'd go stick it in PG Management, CPU Management, the cap skills, and so forth. These skills will enhance any ship that character uses. I'd keep going with these blah, generic skills. When done with that I'd shift over to shield skills, then finally ship skills and maybe drones if N were large enough. But I know this after nearly 8 years (granted after about a year I knew this kind of stuff too). But a brand new player...I could see a player sticking SP into both projectiles and lasers while having SP stuck in Gallente or Caldari ships. And while there were some doctrines a few years ago with Amarr ships and Minmatar guns, I don't think there are too many doctrines that mix racial hulls and guns. Hell, one problem lots of new players make is they'll stick different size guns on a ship, mix tank, and other goofiness. They'll even be out there with partially fit ships (and, cough...cough some of this is from...ahem...personal experience Oops ).




I can click a link, you would have me believe it's purely down to the fact you don't want new players to make an error in what they train. An error that maybe because they decide to change direction later, which could also happen to players that are not so new.

Plus new players are not capable of making their own decisions, I don't believe that

Edit:

Reread the attachment to the link in post 166 to refresh my memory.

It gives the impression at least some of the extra sp will be set by CCP, I hope that they at least leave some of it so that players can choose where to put it.
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#207 - 2015-07-25 06:44:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Webvan
Teckos Pech wrote:
However, heavily stressing that players will find more enjoyment by joining a player run corp could help with retention...at least that is my opinion.
That's the idea, but not how it works. Only thing you can do is force them into a player corp. Likely they are doing the tutorial, mission agents and maybe the epic arc. Couple-few weeks. Trial is about up by then, out the door.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Avvy
Doomheim
#208 - 2015-07-25 06:54:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Webvan wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
However, heavily stressing that players will find more enjoyment by joining a player run corp could help with retention...at least that is my opinion.
That's the idea, but not how it works. Only thing you can do is force them into a player corp. Likely they are doing the tutorial, mission agents and maybe the epic arc. Couple-few weeks. Trial is about up by then, out the door.



How would you force new players into a player corp?

How many corps in this game? There must be loads of them.

The corps are spread out across the EVE universe.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#209 - 2015-07-25 07:32:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Avvy wrote:
Webvan wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
However, heavily stressing that players will find more enjoyment by joining a player run corp could help with retention...at least that is my opinion.
That's the idea, but not how it works. Only thing you can do is force them into a player corp. Likely they are doing the tutorial, mission agents and maybe the epic arc. Couple-few weeks. Trial is about up by then, out the door.



How would you force new players into a player corp?

How many corps in this game? There must be loads of them.

The corps are spread out across the EVE universe.


Jesus you never cease to amaze, I never even ******* wrote that. Check your quoting....

Edit:

To be clear, since you appear to be that dense, I never said "force" I said to heavily stress it. If a player absolutely insists on lone wolfing it, fine. But pointing out that there is lots of benefits to finding the right corp/alliance is not a bad thing.

Edit II: My mistake, horribly misread this. But going to leave the initial post so I can be embarrassed by it. Oops

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Webvan
All Kill No Skill
#210 - 2015-07-25 07:39:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Webvan
Teckos Pech wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Webvan wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
However, heavily stressing that players will find more enjoyment by joining a player run corp could help with retention...at least that is my opinion.
That's the idea, but not how it works. Only thing you can do is force them into a player corp. Likely they are doing the tutorial, mission agents and maybe the epic arc. Couple-few weeks. Trial is about up by then, out the door.



How would you force new players into a player corp?

How many corps in this game? There must be loads of them.

The corps are spread out across the EVE universe.


Jesus you never cease to amaze, I never even ******* wrote that. Check your quoting....

He's more drunk than me haha
Corps all over the freakin place, as foo fighters sang "stacked to the rafters" or is that rifters.
I wasn't being serious there of course Blink

It was more of a "well what else would you suggest..." comment.

I'm in it for the money

Ctrl+Alt+Shift+F12
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#211 - 2015-07-25 07:42:15 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:



Apparently you cannot read or click a link.

"Me, I don't need extra SP. Don't get me wrong, I'd gladly take if offered, but I'll be fine without it."--Teckos Pech

JFC.

And, no many new players are not going to appreciate some of the finer points of the skills system. But at the same time I'd favor a system that gives them some choice, but at the same time will limit where they can assign SP.

If for example CCP gave starting SP of N million SP (where N > 0) and I wanted an alt who could mine, I wouldn't just stuff it all into mining barges. I'd go stick it in PG Management, CPU Management, the cap skills, and so forth. These skills will enhance any ship that character uses. I'd keep going with these blah, generic skills. When done with that I'd shift over to shield skills, then finally ship skills and maybe drones if N were large enough. But I know this after nearly 8 years (granted after about a year I knew this kind of stuff too). But a brand new player...I could see a player sticking SP into both projectiles and lasers while having SP stuck in Gallente or Caldari ships. And while there were some doctrines a few years ago with Amarr ships and Minmatar guns, I don't think there are too many doctrines that mix racial hulls and guns. Hell, one problem lots of new players make is they'll stick different size guns on a ship, mix tank, and other goofiness. They'll even be out there with partially fit ships (and, cough...cough some of this is from...ahem...personal experience Oops ).




I can click a link, you would have me believe it's purely down to the fact you don't want new players to make an error in what they train. An error that maybe because they decide to change direction later, which could also happen to players that are not so new.

Plus new players are not capable of making their own decisions, I don't believe that

Edit:

Reread the attachment to the link in post 166 to refresh my memory.

It gives the impression at least some of the extra sp will be set by CCP, I hope that they at least leave some of it so that players can choose where to put it.


Yes, some SP should probably go into skills that will benefit a player no matter what ship is chosen at the end of the day. And yeah, due to imperfect information a new player may not know the best places to put extra SP...but they might have an idea of what hey might want to do in Eve after the NPE. Of course they might change their minds so not all SP should be allocated simply on that initial decision.

And yeah, if the new player screws up a bit and puts some SP in a useless spot...well, life's a ***** even in Eve. Learn from the mistake and move on.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#212 - 2015-07-25 07:43:13 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Webvan wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
However, heavily stressing that players will find more enjoyment by joining a player run corp could help with retention...at least that is my opinion.
That's the idea, but not how it works. Only thing you can do is force them into a player corp. Likely they are doing the tutorial, mission agents and maybe the epic arc. Couple-few weeks. Trial is about up by then, out the door.



How would you force new players into a player corp?

How many corps in this game? There must be loads of them.

The corps are spread out across the EVE universe.


Jesus you never cease to amaze, I never even ******* wrote that. Check your quoting....

He's more drunk than me haha
Corps all over the freakin place, as foo fighters sang "stacked to the rafters" or is that rifters.
I wasn't being serious there of course Blink


Naw, I ran out of scotch! Oops

But you're right I misread that post. My mistake. I'll be editing it soon.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#213 - 2015-07-25 07:56:53 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

You'd decide, prior to even playing the game, what you wanted to do.



Bad idea, you're asking people that have never even played the game to decide what career they would like to do before they even know what they are like.


Yes, that was how it was back in 2007 and 2008 (maybe even 2009). It was a bad design since people didn't have a clue about the game.

I'd say turn that on its head. Start the game, start the NPE (if you are a brand new player) then once you get some idea of how the game works, offer new players a set of "carreers" or "paths", e.g.,

Miner,
PvP pilot,
etc.

Whatever you pick will result in some SP going into predetermined skills, with a bundle left over for the player to then allocate, possible after another tutorial/discussion on skills and how things can be "stacked", e.g. racial hull bonuses for racial guns or racial EWAR, etc., to help the player learn the skill system and how bonuses work in the game.

If the player insists on flying Caldari hulls with Minmatar guns hopefully he'll learn of his mistake soon and adapt and move on.

If you are not a brand new player and want to skip the NPE, fine...go right to the career/path selection process. New players can do this too if they wish (who knows maybe they have a mentor in game already).

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Avvy
Doomheim
#214 - 2015-07-25 08:22:19 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Webvan wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
However, heavily stressing that players will find more enjoyment by joining a player run corp could help with retention...at least that is my opinion.
That's the idea, but not how it works. Only thing you can do is force them into a player corp. Likely they are doing the tutorial, mission agents and maybe the epic arc. Couple-few weeks. Trial is about up by then, out the door.



How would you force new players into a player corp?

How many corps in this game? There must be loads of them.

The corps are spread out across the EVE universe.


Jesus you never cease to amaze, I never even ******* wrote that. Check your quoting....

Edit:

To be clear, since you appear to be that dense, I never said "force" I said to heavily stress it. If a player absolutely insists on lone wolfing it, fine. But pointing out that there is lots of benefits to finding the right corp/alliance is not a bad thing.

Edit II: My mistake, horribly misread this. But going to leave the initial post so I can be embarrassed by it. Oops


Nothing to be embarrassed about I expect most of us have misread something at some point, I know I have.

You did make me laugh with your comment, I thought I was drunk for a minute.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#215 - 2015-07-25 08:39:29 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

You'd decide, prior to even playing the game, what you wanted to do.



Bad idea, you're asking people that have never even played the game to decide what career they would like to do before they even know what they are like.


Yes, that was how it was back in 2007 and 2008 (maybe even 2009). It was a bad design since people didn't have a clue about the game.

I'd say turn that on its head. Start the game, start the NPE (if you are a brand new player) then once you get some idea of how the game works, offer new players a set of "carreers" or "paths", e.g.,

Miner,
PvP pilot,
etc.

Whatever you pick will result in some SP going into predetermined skills, with a bundle left over for the player to then allocate, possible after another tutorial/discussion on skills and how things can be "stacked", e.g. racial hull bonuses for racial guns or racial EWAR, etc., to help the player learn the skill system and how bonuses work in the game.

If the player insists on flying Caldari hulls with Minmatar guns hopefully he'll learn of his mistake soon and adapt and move on.

If you are not a brand new player and want to skip the NPE, fine...go right to the career/path selection process. New players can do this too if they wish (who knows maybe they have a mentor in game already).


The problem here is you a treating EVE like other MMOs. We don't have classes here, you can be anything.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#216 - 2015-07-25 10:02:54 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
The problem here is you a treating EVE like other MMOs. We don't have classes here, you can be anything.
So many possibilities yet many choose to be failures Roll

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#217 - 2015-07-25 10:33:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Daerrol wrote:
I really think some basic skills shoudl be removed/granted Level 5.
Capacitor related skills (Regen and capacity)
Weapon Upgrades V
CPU Ugrades V
Gunnery V
Missle Launcher Operation V
Spaceship Command V
Trade (start at level 4)
Racial Frigate (start at 4)
Racial Small weapon system (Start at 4)
Drones V

These are pretty entry level skills in their respective fields. Few of them unlock any Tech 2 but they are pretty needed for even basic operation of a starship.
None of those are even remotely needed for basic operation. You need them at III–IV, and even then mainly to unlock other skills. V:s are only ever required to unlock T2 equipment, and by very definition, that stuff isn't basic.

Your list of “basic” skills is 3 million SP of utter uselessness. It doesn't let the player do anything at all. Now compare that pile of nonsense to what can be done at the end my of 2M SP newbie skill plan…

This is exactly the kind of “all V” and “must have X to Y” greifing that fools newbies into thinking that there is some kind of SP gap “problem”, when all it is is old players giving directly harmful advice.

Quote:
I realize you can train all this in only a month or two but really -all- true newbies probably should train these skills so they can dip their toes effectively in a variety of playstyles.
None of those skills are even remotely required to dip your toes into anything for the simple reason that they don't offer any options — they only cater to one play style: combat, and that's already available from the very start. Sure, most players should probably train them to those levels at some point, but during the newbie stage, they're massive overkill and doesn't really let the player try anything they can't already do. The only one on that list that might be worth pushing to V early is Drones and even then only because of the massive 25% boost in drone effectiveness this allows.
Jasper Grimpkin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#218 - 2015-07-25 11:19:31 UTC
Starting skill points today? Luxury. We used to have to get out of station at six o'clock in the morning, clean local, eat a handful of 'ot gravel, work twenty hour day at belt for tuppence a month, come home, and CEO would thrash us to sleep with a broken bottle, if we were lucky!
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#219 - 2015-07-25 11:24:31 UTC
Jasper Grimpkin wrote:
Starting skill points today? Luxury. We used to have to get out of station at six o'clock in the morning, clean local, eat a handful of 'ot gravel, work twenty hour day at belt for tuppence a month, come home, and CEO would thrash us to sleep with a broken bottle, if we were lucky!
+1 for paraphrasing Monty Python.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Painkill3r
Perkone
Caldari State
#220 - 2015-07-25 16:48:50 UTC
Webvan wrote:
Likely they are doing the tutorial, mission agents and maybe the epic arc. Couple-few weeks.


I would wager that even incompetent newbs would only need 2-3 days to do that content.