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Starting skills levels should increase for new players
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Daerrol
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#181 - 2015-07-24 22:15:06 UTC
I really think some basic skills shoudl be removed/granted Level 5.
Capacitor related skills (Regen and capacity)
Weapon Upgrades V
CPU Ugrades V
Gunnery V
Missle Launcher Operation V
Spaceship Command V
Trade (start at level 4)
Racial Frigate (start at 4)
Racial Small weapon system (Start at 4)
Drones V


These are pretty entry level skills in their respective fields. Few of them unlock any Tech 2 but they are pretty needed for even basic operation of a starship. I realize you can train all this in only a month or two but really -all- true newbies probably should train these skills so they can dip their toes effectively in a variety of playstyles. As it is now, you can't even really do market trading as you have to spend 3-4 days training the damn skill!
Avvy
Doomheim
#182 - 2015-07-24 22:21:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
The one thing that would take care of this situation but will never happen is to lock characters to their acct and remove character trading.

I say this as a guy that makes most of his ISK character trading, so trust me that I don't make this statement lightly.

Here's the thing. Everything in this game is destructible. Everything but characters. That creates a situation where since they never leave the game, they become massively overpowered after a few years. Add to that CCP selling you ISK and you have what we have now. A game in which most will buy their way in as opposed to earning their way to more content.

Whether a new player that just wants to jump the training queue or a vet who decides to fly an Avatar instead of a Ragnarok, there's a character to suit in the bazaar and it's only a few PLEX away from being yours. Good for CCP's wallet but not so great for new people trying to get into the game on a budget.

You don't need to start with more SP, you need to kill characters when they've outlived their owners. I doubt there are many people flying 10 year old ships and that's good. It's what keeps the economy alive. But plenty of people are buying and flying ten year old characters and that's not good. It's basically flat-lined character building.

It doesn't take long for people to realize that they can waste a year training from scratch or they can drop a weeks pay and have that training right now. As a character trader I have a pretty good handle on which choice most people make.

Character trading is the one fundamental flaw CCP made in the beginning that is now hurting the game game in a big way. Removing it would be the most important change to revitalizing the game that I can think of. Once that playing field is leveled, new people will not be so averse to starting with a few SP and working their way up through experience and time instead of how many PLEX they can afford.

Mr Epeen Cool


I disagree about the power of high SP. The power/benefits of more and more SP is best described as having decreasing returns to scale. That is the more time I put into training the less benefit I get for a fixed period of time. Early on, a months worth of training will increase a character's "power considerably". Adding 1.25 million SP to a new character means that that month old character has quite a bit of advantage over a brand new character. Let me be concrete here. Suppose Bob creates “Bobby” his Eve character. Then exactly one month later Joe creates “Joey”. Bobby will have quite a bit of an edge over Joey because Bobby will have that additional 1.25 million SP. However, skip ahead 6 months and now the SPs are 7,500,000 vs 6,250,00. A difference of 20%. After a year, that difference will drop to 9%, 2 years later a 4.35% difference, and 3 years later a 2.86% difference. This is true for any lag between Bobby and Joey although the magnitudes will change. For example, suppose Bobby started 5 months before Joey, then the SP differentials at 6, 12, 24, and 36 months are 500%, 71.4%, 26.32% and 16.13% respectively. Further, the extra advantage of those SP are constant while the SP required are increasing in a convex manner (i.e. the amount of SP needed to get the same sized bonus is increasing, this can be seen by looking at the number of SP for a Rank 1 skill, level 1 requires 250 SP, whereas level 5 requires 256,000 SP but the bonus that level five gives is of the same magnitude of the previous levels).

And when we factor in the myriad of ways that Bobby and Joey might interact it becomes even more dubious to assert that Bobby is more “powerful” than Joey. If for example, Bobby became a miner, but Joey a combat oriented pilot, in a combat setting the “less powerful” Joey would probably Kick Bobby’s ass. When it comes to mining, Bobby would mop the floor with Joey.

And then there is the issue of ships each person has selected as well and how you define “winning”. And as has been pointed out before, there is the social nature of the game and that Joey can always make friends with Johnny and together they can go kick Bobby’s ass.

My point, SP is a dubious way of measuring a characters “power” given the decreasing returns to scale, the ambiguous meaning of power, and that there are ways to surmount this “power” outside the SP system.

Note: These SP numbers are based on the assumption both characters had a uniform distribution of attributes and no implants—i.e. they are both training at the same rates.




Think we can all agree that the more sp you have the more options are open to you.

This idea about having skills at 4 because they're easier to train than 5 and the benefits are not that much different between 4 and 5 is flawed. Reason being is that quite often you need a skill at 5 before you can get the next skill book.

I do wonder how many of you high sp levels that oppose changes would actually trash their characters and start again. Would you find the game fun? Would you be able to do what you wanted? Would you get bored? Alts don't count because when you get bored with those you can just go back to your main. Just something to think about.

Edit:

Reason for that last paragraph is that I think sometime players that have played a game for a long time forget what it is like when they first started and alts really don't count as I said you can just go back to your main. The other thing we hear in the thread is that it's changed over time, supposedly its got easier.

I certainly agree that the information could be presented better. I thought opportunities were a little odd until I found the career agents and abandoned the opportunities although a lot are covered by the missions anyway.

The other reason for that last paragraph is I'm just wondering how you would answer it.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#183 - 2015-07-24 22:38:41 UTC
Daerrol wrote:
I really think some basic skills shoudl be removed/granted Level 5.
Capacitor related skills (Regen and capacity)
Weapon Upgrades V
CPU Ugrades V
Gunnery V
Missle Launcher Operation V
Spaceship Command V
Trade (start at level 4)
Racial Frigate (start at 4)
Racial Small weapon system (Start at 4)
Drones V


These are pretty entry level skills in their respective fields. Few of them unlock any Tech 2 but they are pretty needed for even basic operation of a starship. I realize you can train all this in only a month or two but really -all- true newbies probably should train these skills so they can dip their toes effectively in a variety of playstyles. As it is now, you can't even really do market trading as you have to spend 3-4 days training the damn skill!


And your suggestion would help new prospective station traders how? That list is a substantial amount of useless SP. Same thing for somebody wanting to be a miner.

Also this suggestion would create a huge gap between new players prior and post change. Having 2 million SP out of the box relative to other new players would convey a very significant advantage.

Instead of granting more SP in a list like this, if we are going to boost starting SP, then do it by "occupations" in game at the end of the NPE.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#184 - 2015-07-24 22:50:14 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:

And your suggestion would help new prospective station traders how? That list is a substantial amount of useless SP. Same thing for somebody wanting to be a miner.

Also this suggestion would create a huge gap between new players prior and post change. Having 2 million SP out of the box relative to other new players would convey a very significant advantage.

Instead of granting more SP in a list like this, if we are going to boost starting SP, then do it by "occupations" in game at the end of the NPE.


Elegant solution would be to give new and existing characters 2.5m SP to spend as they please. Everyone gets it, so its not really unfair, and it can be put in to whatever skills they want, which would encourage good skill planning and foresight. It's not really that much SP to an established player, but it's the world to a new player. Maybe veterans may not like this, but this is a pragmatic change to allow a few players to get over the first few weeks easier.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#185 - 2015-07-24 22:56:25 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
The one thing that would take care of this situation but will never happen is to lock characters to their acct and remove character trading.

I say this as a guy that makes most of his ISK character trading, so trust me that I don't make this statement lightly.

Here's the thing. Everything in this game is destructible. Everything but characters. That creates a situation where since they never leave the game, they become massively overpowered after a few years. Add to that CCP selling you ISK and you have what we have now. A game in which most will buy their way in as opposed to earning their way to more content.

Whether a new player that just wants to jump the training queue or a vet who decides to fly an Avatar instead of a Ragnarok, there's a character to suit in the bazaar and it's only a few PLEX away from being yours. Good for CCP's wallet but not so great for new people trying to get into the game on a budget.

You don't need to start with more SP, you need to kill characters when they've outlived their owners. I doubt there are many people flying 10 year old ships and that's good. It's what keeps the economy alive. But plenty of people are buying and flying ten year old characters and that's not good. It's basically flat-lined character building.

It doesn't take long for people to realize that they can waste a year training from scratch or they can drop a weeks pay and have that training right now. As a character trader I have a pretty good handle on which choice most people make.

Character trading is the one fundamental flaw CCP made in the beginning that is now hurting the game game in a big way. Removing it would be the most important change to revitalizing the game that I can think of. Once that playing field is leveled, new people will not be so averse to starting with a few SP and working their way up through experience and time instead of how many PLEX they can afford.

Mr Epeen Cool


I disagree about the power of high SP. The power/benefits of more and more SP is best described as having decreasing returns to scale. That is the more time I put into training the less benefit I get for a fixed period of time. Early on, a months worth of training will increase a character's "power considerably". Adding 1.25 million SP to a new character means that that month old character has quite a bit of advantage over a brand new character. Let me be concrete here. Suppose Bob creates “Bobby” his Eve character. Then exactly one month later Joe creates “Joey”. Bobby will have quite a bit of an edge over Joey because Bobby will have that additional 1.25 million SP. However, skip ahead 6 months and now the SPs are 7,500,000 vs 6,250,00. A difference of 20%. After a year, that difference will drop to 9%, 2 years later a 4.35% difference, and 3 years later a 2.86% difference. This is true for any lag between Bobby and Joey although the magnitudes will change. For example, suppose Bobby started 5 months before Joey, then the SP differentials at 6, 12, 24, and 36 months are 500%, 71.4%, 26.32% and 16.13% respectively. Further, the extra advantage of those SP are constant while the SP required are increasing in a convex manner (i.e. the amount of SP needed to get the same sized bonus is increasing, this can be seen by looking at the number of SP for a Rank 1 skill, level 1 requires 250 SP, whereas level 5 requires 256,000 SP but the bonus that level five gives is of the same magnitude of the previous levels).

And when we factor in the myriad of ways that Bobby and Joey might interact it becomes even more dubious to assert that Bobby is more “powerful” than Joey. If for example, Bobby became a miner, but Joey a combat oriented pilot, in a combat setting the “less powerful” Joey would probably Kick Bobby’s ass. When it comes to mining, Bobby would mop the floor with Joey.

And then there is the issue of ships each person has selected as well and how you define “winning”. And as has been pointed out before, there is the social nature of the game and that Joey can always make friends with Johnny and together they can go kick Bobby’s ass.

My point, SP is a dubious way of measuring a characters “power” given the decreasing returns to scale, the ambiguous meaning of power, and that there are ways to surmount this “power” outside the SP system.

Note: These SP numbers are based on the assumption both characters had a uniform distribution of attributes and no implants—i.e. they are both training at the same rates.

I can't help but feel the concept of diminishing returns on training is largely sidestepped in the context of a character purchase. When acquiring a trained character the buyers concern is capability rather than age. And really that seems to be the thing being argued against.

I'm not sure I agree with the position, whether for the reasons stated or otherwise, but since the concept is about trading abilities rather than simply raw SP numbers the notion of SP efficiency and relative leads doesn't apply. If we were talking about characters with no intent to trade hands sure, but so far as the bazaar is concerned, not so much.

Essentially Bob and Joe aren't limited to say, 7.5m SP Bobby and 6m SP Joey, 75m SP Tommy could be had by either of them and gives a strait upgrade on everything they can do.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#186 - 2015-07-24 22:58:34 UTC
Avvy wrote:


Think we can all agree that the more sp you have the more options are open to you.

This idea about having skills at 4 because they're easier to train than 5 and the benefits are not that much different between 4 and 5 is flawed. Reason being is that quite often you need a skill at 5 before you can get the next skill book.

I do wonder how many of you high sp levels that oppose changes would actually trash their characters and start again. Would you find the game fun? Would you be able to do what you wanted? Would you get bored? Alts don't count because when you get bored with those you can just go back to your main. Just something to think about.


I'm not saying 4 vs. 5 is not big deal. Sometimes that 2, 3, 4 or even 5% can be the deciding factor. But emphasis should be on the word can. Further, that using SP in the abstract to measure a characters "power' is decidedly flawed. It is like using weight in RL to determine the winner of a fist fight. Sure, all other things being equal the bigger guy will have the advantage and more often than not will probably win...but things are rarely if every equal everywhere else. Eve does not work by comparing characters SP, then declaring the person with the most SP the "winner". I know nobody has said this explicitly, but lets face it, that is then underlying subtext of a great many of these posts.

Hell, I'm not even going to agree on the claim that more SP gives you more options. Suppose I trained a bunch of trading skills. Then I undock. I run into a guy with half as many SP as he has, but he put them into combat ship based skills. Who has more options? Certainly not me with the the trading skills. I might just have enough skills to get in a T1 ship and undock. Point being claims like "options", "power", "flexibility" are extremely subjective and lacking in any rigor. Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with subjectivity, but without any sort of rigor in terms of defining subjective elements its just alot of hot air, IMO.

For example, progress could be made if we had things like:

Combat Power
Mining Power
Building Power
Trading Power

And you could come up some way of translating a characters SP into some sort of number or something. Not unlike say a price index which takes not only prices but even things like how much of the various items you buy and comes up with an overall measure of price changes.

But that is alot of work so that is a path we probably can't go down (maybe CCP could since they have all the data, and probably some people who could together such measures). Instead, I'm arguing that people stop making these subjective and non-rigorous statements and go back to one of the basic points of the OP: new players should be able to log in on day one/minute one (post NPE) and “have fun”.

Okay, that’s fine. Lets go back to the old character creation model but turn it on its head. A player goes through the NPE, learns at least some aspects of the game and then chooses a “career” or “path”. And based on that choice is allotted SP in a variety of skills so that they can go try their hand at it. Further, the skills that get SP can change. A miner will get SP in skills for mining, whereas a PvP inclined pilot will get SP in skills for PvP. There will likely be similarities as having more CPU and PG are good whether you are mining or PvPing, but there can be differences and not forcing everyone into the same cookie cutter mold.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#187 - 2015-07-24 23:10:05 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

And your suggestion would help new prospective station traders how? That list is a substantial amount of useless SP. Same thing for somebody wanting to be a miner.

Also this suggestion would create a huge gap between new players prior and post change. Having 2 million SP out of the box relative to other new players would convey a very significant advantage.

Instead of granting more SP in a list like this, if we are going to boost starting SP, then do it by "occupations" in game at the end of the NPE.


Elegant solution would be to give new and existing characters 2.5m SP to spend as they please. Everyone gets it, so its not really unfair, and it can be put in to whatever skills they want, which would encourage good skill planning and foresight. It's not really that much SP to an established player, but it's the world to a new player. Maybe veterans may not like this, but this is a pragmatic change to allow a few players to get over the first few weeks easier.


I was thinking that players up to a year old get extra SP...possibly on a sliding scale.

Me, I don't need extra SP. Don't get me wrong, I'd gladly take if offered, but I'll be fine without it.

As for new players, I think the point that they wont really know where to put it is a good one. You know where to allocate those SP. As do I. Most commenters here probably have their own ideas too...but two things:

1. We'd probably all allocate it at least slightly differently (if not extremely differently)
2. We all understand probably at an intermediate level or better the SP system and its implications in game (fittings, DPS, speed, etc.).

But some guy just sitting down and having finished the NPE...probably not so much. But he might know he wants to be a miner, or go into PvP, or exploration or whatever. So boost a number of skills related to those activities, but not so much that the guy can't switch over to another path if he decides too (e.g. imagine being a miner and getting 2.5 million SP then realize it doesn't get much more exciting....now you have to start over nearly from zero for PvP and/or missions).

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#188 - 2015-07-24 23:18:46 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

I can't help but feel the concept of diminishing returns on training is largely sidestepped in the context of a character purchase. When acquiring a trained character the buyers concern is capability rather than age. And really that seems to be the thing being argued against.

I'm not sure I agree with the position, whether for the reasons stated or otherwise, but since the concept is about trading abilities rather than simply raw SP numbers the notion of SP efficiency and relative leads doesn't apply. If we were talking about characters with no intent to trade hands sure, but so far as the bazaar is concerned, not so much.

Essentially Bob and Joe aren't limited to say, 7.5m SP Bobby and 6m SP Joey, 75m SP Tommy could be had by either of them and gives a strait upgrade on everything they can do.


Yes, and no. Yes, by buying a high SP character you can side step a lot of training time…but then again who exactly is buying a high SP character. I did take a quick spin through the character bazaar and noted that a 50 million SP character, if you bought PLEX to get the ISK, would cost you about $400. Are new players doing that…in significant amounts? Maybe they are, but we can’t usually tell by the buyer. The buyer might be a new alt to hide the true buyer…or it could be a brand spanking new player. Given how stupid easy it is for veterans to amass ISK…I’m not wondering if most buyers are actually veterans.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Avvy
Doomheim
#189 - 2015-07-24 23:19:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Teckos Pech wrote:
[quote=Avvy]


Hell, I'm not even going to agree on the claim that more SP gives you more options. Suppose I trained a bunch of trading skills. Then I undock. I run into a guy with half as many SP as he has, but he put them into combat ship based skills. Who has more options? Certainly not me with the the trading skills. I might just have enough skills to get in a T1 ship and undock. Point being claims like "options", "power", "flexibility" are extremely subjective and lacking in any rigor. Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with subjectivity, but without any sort of rigor in terms of defining subjective elements its just alot of hot air, IMO.




Lets look at this a different way.

I don't know how much sp your character has, but say you lost the sp and you only had 50k sp left. What can't your character do that it could before?

The difference is directly related to sp.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#190 - 2015-07-24 23:19:40 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
But some guy just sitting down and having finished the NPE...probably not so much. But he might know he wants to be a miner, or go into PvP, or exploration or whatever. So boost a number of skills related to those activities, but not so much that the guy can't switch over to another path if he decides too (e.g. imagine being a miner and getting 2.5 million SP then realize it doesn't get much more exciting....now you have to start over nearly from zero for PvP and/or missions).


Good. This shows consequences and the permanence of skill training. Also having 'mad money' in SP can quickly demonstrate (not explain, not teach, as in hands on experience) how the skill system works; the last level of a skill is 20% of the benefit for 80% of the SP, and actually build up the intuition we all have. Having an amount of SP to spend like that would be really informative for how to set up good skill plans.

About the only BLATANT abuse of the system would be trial accounts and HS ganking. Easy, just don't give the SP until they are either subbed or plexed. No problem.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#191 - 2015-07-24 23:25:48 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
But some guy just sitting down and having finished the NPE...probably not so much. But he might know he wants to be a miner, or go into PvP, or exploration or whatever. So boost a number of skills related to those activities, but not so much that the guy can't switch over to another path if he decides too (e.g. imagine being a miner and getting 2.5 million SP then realize it doesn't get much more exciting....now you have to start over nearly from zero for PvP and/or missions).


Good. This shows consequences and the permanence of skill training. Also having 'mad money' in SP can quickly demonstrate (not explain, not teach, as in hands on experience) how the skill system works; the last level of a skill is 20% of the benefit for 80% of the SP, and actually build up the intuition we all have. Having an amount of SP to spend like that would be really informative for how to set up good skill plans.

About the only BLATANT abuse of the system would be trial accounts and HS ganking. Easy, just don't give the SP until they are either subbed or plexed. No problem.


Fair point. Maybe a mixed approach...which would also allow for even greater customization.

And agreed on the points about trial accounts.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#192 - 2015-07-24 23:44:28 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:



Hell, I'm not even going to agree on the claim that more SP gives you more options. Suppose I trained a bunch of trading skills. Then I undock. I run into a guy with half as many SP as he has, but he put them into combat ship based skills. Who has more options? Certainly not me with the the trading skills. I might just have enough skills to get in a T1 ship and undock. Point being claims like "options", "power", "flexibility" are extremely subjective and lacking in any rigor. Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with subjectivity, but without any sort of rigor in terms of defining subjective elements its just alot of hot air, IMO.




Lets look at this a different way.

I don't know how much sp your character has, but say you lost the sp and you only had 50k sp left. What can't your character do that it could before?

The difference is directly related to sp.


Depends on where the 50k are left, but yeah. If you took away my 119,600,000 or so SP my options would be reduced. But that still does not mean that terms like power, options, etc. are incredibly squishy and should be considered suspect. Even with my 119 million + SP I'd be terrible at exploration. I'd be terrible at building stuff, researching, and inventing. I could just barely mine. From a PvP stand point I have lots of options. My choices have limited my options in some ways while enhancing them in others. So I still think using those terms can be highly misleading.

If I were to come into this thread and had hid all my information and you did not go look at killboards, Evewho, etc. and I were to say I have almost 120 million SP. What would that mean in terms of options? In and of itself not much. One person might think, he can probably fly any ship. No. I suck at flying mining ships and haulers for instance. Another might think, he probably has a titan or super…again, nope. Another might think, he can fly any interceptor, and again nope. I can fly every racial HAC, I can fly any racial T3. I can fly (not equally well) Gallente, Amarr and Caldari carriers. So depending on what we are talking about I have lots of options or damn few.

And yeah, if we were to compare me to a new player interested in PvP I have way, way more options. But that is always going to be the case. Because this game relies on a skill point system. Would probably be true if it was based on a “grinding system” too. Not much we can really do about that, IMO, short of screwing me over and deleting my account or just arbitrarily reducing my SP. But as I noted awhile ago, pissing off your long term customers is probably the sh*ttiest of sh*tty ideas I’ve seen on this form…and that’s saying something. You could boost the heck out of the new player SP, but short of giving new players something like 100 million SP he’ll still have less options than I do.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Avvy
Doomheim
#193 - 2015-07-25 00:03:58 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:

And yeah, if we were to compare me to a new player interested in PvP I have way, way more options. But that is always going to be the case. Because this game relies on a skill point system. Would probably be true if it was based on a “grinding system” too. Not much we can really do about that, IMO, short of screwing me over and deleting my account or just arbitrarily reducing my SP. But as I noted awhile ago, pissing off your long term customers is probably the sh*ttiest of sh*tty ideas I’ve seen on this form…and that’s saying something. You could boost the heck out of the new player SP, but short of giving new players something like 100 million SP he’ll still have less options than I do.




So we are agreed more sp opens new options.

You have over 100 million sp, why should you care if a new player starts with 0.5 or 1 million sp? It's not going to effect you in the slightest. All it will do is give an initial boost to a new player.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#194 - 2015-07-25 00:10:23 UTC
Avvy wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

And yeah, if we were to compare me to a new player interested in PvP I have way, way more options. But that is always going to be the case. Because this game relies on a skill point system. Would probably be true if it was based on a “grinding system” too. Not much we can really do about that, IMO, short of screwing me over and deleting my account or just arbitrarily reducing my SP. But as I noted awhile ago, pissing off your long term customers is probably the sh*ttiest of sh*tty ideas I’ve seen on this form…and that’s saying something. You could boost the heck out of the new player SP, but short of giving new players something like 100 million SP he’ll still have less options than I do.




So we are agreed more sp opens new options.

You have over 100 million sp, why should you care if a new player starts with 0.5 or 1 million sp? It's not going to effect you in the slightest. All it will do is give an initial boost to a new player.




No. I think the context of what one means by "options" is important. And selectively quoting is not going to help your case.

I agree that if we are going to try and boost the "fun factor" for new players going back to a modified version of the old character creation process is probably a good way to go. But in another sense of the word...it keeps the options open for the new player.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#195 - 2015-07-25 00:17:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Maldiro Selkurk
Avvy wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

And yeah, if we were to compare me to a new player interested in PvP I have way, way more options. But that is always going to be the case. Because this game relies on a skill point system. Would probably be true if it was based on a “grinding system” too. Not much we can really do about that, IMO, short of screwing me over and deleting my account or just arbitrarily reducing my SP. But as I noted awhile ago, pissing off your long term customers is probably the sh*ttiest of sh*tty ideas I’ve seen on this form…and that’s saying something. You could boost the heck out of the new player SP, but short of giving new players something like 100 million SP he’ll still have less options than I do.




So we are agreed more sp opens new options.

You have over 100 million sp, why should you care if a new player starts with 0.5 or 1 million sp? It's not going to effect you in the slightest. All it will do is give an initial boost to a new player.



wrong, we worked for or paid for those SP and this change devalues our SP if you do it, unless as we have already pointed out you give them to everyone.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Avvy
Doomheim
#196 - 2015-07-25 00:18:20 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

And yeah, if we were to compare me to a new player interested in PvP I have way, way more options. But that is always going to be the case. Because this game relies on a skill point system. Would probably be true if it was based on a “grinding system” too. Not much we can really do about that, IMO, short of screwing me over and deleting my account or just arbitrarily reducing my SP. But as I noted awhile ago, pissing off your long term customers is probably the sh*ttiest of sh*tty ideas I’ve seen on this form…and that’s saying something. You could boost the heck out of the new player SP, but short of giving new players something like 100 million SP he’ll still have less options than I do.




So we are agreed more sp opens new options.

You have over 100 million sp, why should you care if a new player starts with 0.5 or 1 million sp? It's not going to effect you in the slightest. All it will do is give an initial boost to a new player.




No. I think the context of what one means by "options" is important. And selectively quoting is not going to help your case.

I agree that if we are going to try and boost the "fun factor" for new players going back to a modified version of the old character creation process is probably a good way to go. But in another sense of the word...it keeps the options open for the new player.




Where options are concerned I think you're just trying to side step the issue.


But you didn't answer my question.

So why do you care when its not even going to effect you?
Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#197 - 2015-07-25 00:26:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Maldiro Selkurk
deleted

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.
Avvy
Doomheim
#198 - 2015-07-25 00:33:21 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

And yeah, if we were to compare me to a new player interested in PvP I have way, way more options. But that is always going to be the case. Because this game relies on a skill point system. Would probably be true if it was based on a “grinding system” too. Not much we can really do about that, IMO, short of screwing me over and deleting my account or just arbitrarily reducing my SP. But as I noted awhile ago, pissing off your long term customers is probably the sh*ttiest of sh*tty ideas I’ve seen on this form…and that’s saying something. You could boost the heck out of the new player SP, but short of giving new players something like 100 million SP he’ll still have less options than I do.




So we are agreed more sp opens new options.

You have over 100 million sp, why should you care if a new player starts with 0.5 or 1 million sp? It's not going to effect you in the slightest. All it will do is give an initial boost to a new player.




No. I think the context of what one means by "options" is important. And selectively quoting is not going to help your case.

I agree that if we are going to try and boost the "fun factor" for new players going back to a modified version of the old character creation process is probably a good way to go. But in another sense of the word...it keeps the options open for the new player.




Where options are concerned I think you're just trying to side step the issue.


But you didn't answer my question.

So why do you care when its not even going to effect you?

lets say the world only had 100 dollars and i went out and earned them all, then you go give eveyone but me 10 dollars, you have effectively taken 10 dollars from me because i no longer have a 100 dollar advantage. it has been reduced to 90 dollars.



I already know your reasoning and your particular concern is not unreasonable. Because you don't mind new players gaining a boost as long as you get the same.

What I was hoping to hear is what Teckos Pech's reasoning is as it differs from yours.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#199 - 2015-07-25 03:42:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Avvy wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

And yeah, if we were to compare me to a new player interested in PvP I have way, way more options. But that is always going to be the case. Because this game relies on a skill point system. Would probably be true if it was based on a “grinding system” too. Not much we can really do about that, IMO, short of screwing me over and deleting my account or just arbitrarily reducing my SP. But as I noted awhile ago, pissing off your long term customers is probably the sh*ttiest of sh*tty ideas I’ve seen on this form…and that’s saying something. You could boost the heck out of the new player SP, but short of giving new players something like 100 million SP he’ll still have less options than I do.




So we are agreed more sp opens new options.

You have over 100 million sp, why should you care if a new player starts with 0.5 or 1 million sp? It's not going to effect you in the slightest. All it will do is give an initial boost to a new player.




No. I think the context of what one means by "options" is important. And selectively quoting is not going to help your case.

I agree that if we are going to try and boost the "fun factor" for new players going back to a modified version of the old character creation process is probably a good way to go. But in another sense of the word...it keeps the options open for the new player.




Where options are concerned I think you're just trying to side step the issue.


But you didn't answer my question.

So why do you care when its not even going to effect you?


I think you are too literal in your thinking.

What options does a player have if we give him

Capacitor related skills (Regen and capacity) to V
Weapon Upgrades V
CPU Ugrades V
Gunnery V
Missle Launcher Operation V
Spaceship Command V
Trade (start at level 4)
Racial Frigate (start at 4)
Racial Small weapon system (Start at 4)
Drones V?

Great if you are combat oriented but it limits your options if you want to do something else.

You know its funny Eve players love to trot out opportunity cost, but I've secretly I've doubted most Eve players really get opportunity cost. Not really, not outside of "if I mine my own minerals they are free."

Every time I chose to train a given skill there is an opportunity cost (the next best skill I could have trained). When I make that choice I understand the opportunity cost.

When the game or some other set of players make the choice they do not suffer the opportunity cost and hence there is little to no incentive to understand the opportunity cost for each player--i.e. the players preference ordering. Even the path of type of combat ships might vary from player to player. The more SP you put into skills for a new player the more opportunity cost you are imposing on him without understanding that players preferences. In short you are being an overbearing arrogant know-it-all.

Or let me put it differently, how about I pick your next 1 million SP based on what I would like to train (for your main, not your alt)? No? Geee, what a shock. Roll

Oh, and perhaps you need to train reading comprehension immediately,

Quote:
Me, I don't need extra SP. Don't get me wrong, I'd gladly take if offered, but I'll be fine without it.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#200 - 2015-07-25 03:55:40 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Vic Jefferson wrote:


About the only BLATANT abuse of the system would be trial accounts and HS ganking. Easy, just don't give the SP until they are either subbed or plexed. No problem.


That's a myth.

Darth Terona wrote:


If you pick pvp carrier you get the ability to fly t1 frig of your race complete with long range and short range weapon variants and enuff skill to deploy drones. Also should be able to operate scrams webs mwd and afterburners out if the box. And be able to equip and use your races favorite tank variety. Lvl 1 would suffice.


Having to wait about for two weeks or more before you can even try entry level positions puts off a lot of people.


Takes all of 30 min to do this.