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Warfare & Tactics

 
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A thought about Boosters:
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Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#201 - 2015-07-24 21:49:20 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Just because I'm an advocate for the preservation of "true solo" does not mean it's all I do. I can blob with the best of them. But I will re-iterate my belief that it is the potential for solo and small gang conflicts on a relatively even playing field that draws many people to lowsec and to faction warfare specifically.


Since most people dont go out and look for 1v1's im going to dispute your reasoning. Also, boosts are fine at the small/med gang level.

Links add verity to gang fighting, and solo is just a vocal minority. Also, those soloists blaming boosts for their losses will just move right on to blaming other things for their losses.


Links add nothing to gang fighting except requiring both sides have them to compete. Otherwise you just get kited all day and there's no point staying undocked.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#202 - 2015-07-24 22:24:24 UTC
I can assure you that they do add to gang. And they are not symmetrical, their use and effectiveness depends entirely on your setup.
Legatus1982
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#203 - 2015-07-25 02:52:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Legatus1982
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
I can assure you that they do add to gang. And they are not symmetrical, their use and effectiveness depends entirely on your setup.


If by depends on your setup you mean "adds speed" then sure
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#204 - 2015-07-25 03:08:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Legatus1982 wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
I can assure you that they do add to gang. And they are not symmetrical, their use and effectiveness depends entirely on your setup.


If by depends on your setup you mean "adds speed" then sure


Adds speed, adds buffer, adds local tank, adds targeting range, adds sensor strength, reduces sig, strengthens jams, etc.

Ill link you a video, in this fight we engaged snuff box arty machs. I was in a griffin. I had 2 lokis almost permanently jammed which reduced mach alpha to joke levels. Wtihout boosts, the frequency of jams would have been much lower and our inferior fleet of megathrons would have just been webbed and 1 shotted off field 1 by 1.

So while everyone is important in that fight, its not an understatement to say that 1 griffin helped that entire 30 billion isk killed fight unfold in our favor thanks to links. (we had more griffins but the others died due to no snakes afaik)

I know you come from the perspective of ignorance, but please appreciate that other people are not just trying to argue with you, weve actually know better.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#205 - 2015-07-26 22:52:49 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Legatus1982 wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
I can assure you that they do add to gang. And they are not symmetrical, their use and effectiveness depends entirely on your setup.


If by depends on your setup you mean "adds speed" then sure


Adds speed, adds buffer, adds local tank, adds targeting range, adds sensor strength, reduces sig, strengthens jams, etc.

Ill link you a video, in this fight we engaged snuff box arty machs. I was in a griffin. I had 2 lokis almost permanently jammed which reduced mach alpha to joke levels. Wtihout boosts, the frequency of jams would have been much lower and our inferior fleet of megathrons would have just been webbed and 1 shotted off field 1 by 1.

So while everyone is important in that fight, its not an understatement to say that 1 griffin helped that entire 30 billion isk killed fight unfold in our favor thanks to links. (we had more griffins but the others died due to no snakes afaik)

I know you come from the perspective of ignorance, but please appreciate that other people are not just trying to argue with you, weve actually know better.


You're choosing a niche example that is not reflective of the way links are generally used.

I wasn't even aware links affected jam strength, because almost no one cares about that.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#206 - 2015-07-27 01:19:24 UTC
That really says more about you than the way links are used.
Legatus1982
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#207 - 2015-07-27 12:39:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Legatus1982
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Legatus1982 wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
I can assure you that they do add to gang. And they are not symmetrical, their use and effectiveness depends entirely on your setup.


If by depends on your setup you mean "adds speed" then sure


Adds speed, adds buffer, adds local tank, adds targeting range, adds sensor strength, reduces sig, strengthens jams, etc.

Ill link you a video, in this fight we engaged snuff box arty machs. I was in a griffin. I had 2 lokis almost permanently jammed which reduced mach alpha to joke levels. Wtihout boosts, the frequency of jams would have been much lower and our inferior fleet of megathrons would have just been webbed and 1 shotted off field 1 by 1.

So while everyone is important in that fight, its not an understatement to say that 1 griffin helped that entire 30 billion isk killed fight unfold in our favor thanks to links. (we had more griffins but the others died due to no snakes afaik)

I know you come from the perspective of ignorance, but please appreciate that other people are not just trying to argue with you, weve actually know better.


Your ego is inflated a little bit too high buddy. You're not a special snowflake who knows better than everyone else. You're a guy who spent money on a second account to win at Internet spaceships.

Large scale battles are the intended use of links. Showing an example of them performing their intended role isn't really an indication of the problem when there are a thousand ways to use links in ways that are not intended and to the detriment of the game.
Also I'm not sure how having links suddenly makes the alpha of a mach fleet suddenly a joke. I don't care to watch the video because I know what I'm going to see is a counter fleet to what the machs were doing, and while I like to see snuff get exploded you aren't illustrating anything with this video other than one rare example of the intended purpose of links.

TLDR you are trying really hard to justify something when you've been posting examples indicating why links shouldn't exist throughout this thread already.
I'd still be OK with links if mays suggestion was used or if they were required to be on grid. The weapons timer I still don't like because there are still ways to bullshit the system and I don't think it will change anything. The links need to be at risk like everyone else involved in the fights which means either being on grid or being immobile, one or the other.
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#208 - 2015-07-27 13:09:47 UTC
Legatus1982 wrote:

I'm still waiting for someone to link data showing "most" players have multiple active accounts. I'm pretty sure that's bullshit, and if it's not I'm unsubbing.



Your stuff...

Can I have it?

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
Legatus1982
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#209 - 2015-07-27 13:12:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Legatus1982
IbanezLaney wrote:
Legatus1982 wrote:

I'm still waiting for someone to link data showing "most" players have multiple active accounts. I'm pretty sure that's bullshit, and if it's not I'm unsubbing.



Your stuff...

Can I have it?


If you prove more people have multiple accounts than people have single accounts, then sure. I won't give a **** about a game based on who pays ccp the most money.
In that instance you can have the characters too. Doesn't matter to me, either it's factually inaccurate bullshit or I won't care about the game anymore.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#210 - 2015-07-27 13:39:23 UTC
Legatus1982 wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Legatus1982 wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Just going to toss this out there, but boosts aren't only used in PVP. PVEers and miners use them regularly. So when talking about wanting to make them gain a suspect flag or weapons timer, realize you aren't only affecting the boosting alts you see in your PVP activities.

Changes/fixes should have a balanced approach.


Which is why I think may had the best suggestion. It doesn't negatively affect the boost ship but it does put a risk mechanic in play.

And Crosi, you seem to misunderstand the difference between 1v1 and 1vx where links are involved. The only thing links does in this game literally is take away the solo option against linked pilots without your own links. Whether the enemy pilot is one guy or a fleet where you isolated one enemy, the problem lies in the fact that they are getting a bonus to ship performance beyond the fact that you have more pilots, which is NOT, regardless of what you say, in any way an incentive to play this game solo without a second account. And that is the problem. It's an anti-skill mechanic aimed at protecting the people who spend money for a second account.


You think EVE is meant to be played solo? EVE is a MMO. You don't need a second account, just friends to even the playing field.

Scenario 1: Player A enters a FW system and sees it is being contested by 5-10 opposing militia members. He doesn't have any friends online at the moment, but he does have a booster alt that he can use to effectively help even the odds if he is smart. Using his boosting alt and manual piloting skill (plus knowledge of the game) he is able to curb their activities until others get online. USING LINK ALT AS INTENDED.

Scenario 2: Player A enters system and sees it being contested by 1 person. Logs on boosting alt so he can easily smash the other player in and lower his risk. NOT USING LINK ALT AS INTENDED.

When a player is using links to even the odds, then he is using them as they were intended (at least in my view); but when a person is just using them for easy kills, then it is abuse.

This is why I just want the links shown on the killmail and given a weapons timer for now. If CCP can make it so they have to be on grid in the future, that would be nice. In the interim, I just want the evidence; to show the people who use their links only to increase their likelihood of an easy kill.


We've already been through this and as with others you are completely missing the point.

Scenario 1: player is able to 1v10 because of links
Apparently you think this is ok, my honest best guess is because you currently own a links alt that you've been skilling and paying for since idk, 2007. It's understandable you'd not want to lose that, but I'd rather you get compensated with plex or something rather than see the game suffer because this is allowed to go on.

Scenario 2: not in any way different from scenario 1. The guy who paid extra $ to run a second account is able to win fights he should not/might not have won otherwise.

It has nothing to do with whether you are solo or not. It's providing a bonus solely based on the fact that you have a 2nd account alt who is just sitting around being useless otherwise, and if the opposition doesn't have a multiboxer they lose because of it. It's P2W plain and simple, and not in a small way. It's flat out the worst P2W offender in eve online.

Imagine a fleet battle of 100v100 and one fleet doesn't have links. Holy **** that would go downhill fast.

Now how many times have you actually seen these alts on grid? Because every time you don't, someone has paid USD and gotten an in-game combat benefit from it. It is being used almost 100% of the time through paid second account alts.


Yes scenario 1 is fine. Because in that scenario, that is exactly why links were created. Links are supposed to even the playing field when a smaller fleet/gang, or person, is vastly outnumbered. Otherwise, this game would devolve into a numbers game on who can bring more.

I'm beginning to think you are THAT guy who blames their loses on others, instead of your own incompetence.
Legatus1982
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#211 - 2015-07-27 14:16:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Legatus1982
No, that is not why links were created and it shows just how bad things have gotten when someone tries to tell me with a straight face that links were created to 1v10 successfully.

Read the description on the command ships. They are designed to buff FLEETS in FLEET engagements. This was before t3 cruisers came along.

Now everyone keeps their cloaking t3c alt in system in a safe, pos, or station undock because why not? It's easy to get cloaky ships through gates so you can safely take your command alt anywhere your main goes now.

This is NOT the intended design for links, and frankly it's sad that you think you should be given the option to do things other pilots can't because you purchased an extra account. People like yourself who want cash for ccp to equate to more kills for you are the reason this has gotten so bad. I suggest growing a pair and hunting a limited engagement profile while scouting on your own or ACTUALLY having a fleet like everyone else does.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#212 - 2015-07-27 18:24:56 UTC
Legatus1982 wrote:

Large scale battles are the intended use of links. Showing an example of them performing their intended role isn't really an indication of the problem


That was what would be considered a medium sized fight.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#213 - 2015-07-27 20:59:58 UTC
Legatus1982 wrote:
No, that is not why links were created and it shows just how bad things have gotten when someone tries to tell me with a straight face that links were created to 1v10 successfully.

Read the description on the command ships. They are designed to buff FLEETS in FLEET engagements. This was before t3 cruisers came along.

Now everyone keeps their cloaking t3c alt in system in a safe, pos, or station undock because why not? It's easy to get cloaky ships through gates so you can safely take your command alt anywhere your main goes now.

This is NOT the intended design for links, and frankly it's sad that you think you should be given the option to do things other pilots can't because you purchased an extra account. People like yourself who want cash for ccp to equate to more kills for you are the reason this has gotten so bad. I suggest growing a pair and hunting a limited engagement profile while scouting on your own or ACTUALLY having a fleet like everyone else does.


What is your definition of a fleet? A fleet is a group of ships under one commander. More than one ship is a fleet. Can you whine more please?
Legatus1982
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#214 - 2015-07-28 11:42:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Legatus1982
Yes now we're going to pretend we don't know what is meant when someone says fleet and large scale battle. Read the description of the command ships. That is the intended use of links, not 1v10 with your cloaky t3 alt.

First it's the poster who uses an alt, then it's their kill board, then it's everyone but a few players who all have multiple accounts, then it's the semantics of what fleet means. It's obvious at this point that I am arguing with children.



P2w is bad for the game. Deal with it.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#215 - 2015-07-28 12:37:11 UTC
Agreed, and if eve ever becomes pay to win it would be a bad thing.
Plato Forko
123 Fake Street
#216 - 2015-07-28 22:19:42 UTC
Legatus1982 wrote:
Your ego is inflated a little bit too high buddy. You're not a special snowflake who knows better than everyone else.


mind the traffic, that's a two-way street.
Lucy Callagan
Goryn Clade
#217 - 2015-07-29 12:00:18 UTC
Legatus1982 wrote:
a few players who all have multiple accounts


All the people I know have at least two accounts. I got a secondary account that I pay with my pvp loot, that's not a super hard thing to do.
Legatus1982
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#218 - 2015-07-29 15:01:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Legatus1982
Lucy Callagan wrote:
Legatus1982 wrote:
a few players who all have multiple accounts


All the people I know have at least two accounts. I got a secondary account that I pay with my pvp loot, that's not a super hard thing to do.


Link me proof of such a claim and you can have all my stuff when I cancel sub. Standing offer to anyone. Most likely this is a bullshit claim or you are a player who flies with like minded people who also don't mind paying more than they should have to, which is not indicative of any majority whatsoever.
Legatus1982
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#219 - 2015-07-29 15:22:34 UTC
Plato Forko wrote:
Legatus1982 wrote:
Your ego is inflated a little bit too high buddy. You're not a special snowflake who knows better than everyone else.


mind the traffic, that's a two-way street.


The difference here being I'm not the one telling everyone I know better than them and they are all ignorant. See how that works? Some of us are here arguing a well backed case for the sake of the game and others are trolling about how "git links nub"
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#220 - 2015-07-29 15:44:38 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
That really says more about you than the way links are used.


Oh don't make me laugh. Nobody buys links to buff their griffin.