Assembly Hall

Dear CSM 10 and members of New Eden,

For quite some time now there has been a disparity between the effectiveness of SP invested into turret and SP invested into missiles. I have waited patiently for ~1.5 years since CCP Ytterbium said that missile requirements could be a good thing to look at. While I understand that this may be too late to get looked at for the missile rebalance that will likely coincide with the release of the Jackdaw, I hope with the CSM's help we can fix this issue once and for all in a release soon after.

In this topic I will show that a single SP invested into a base missile skill is worth ~1/2 of a single SP invested into a base turret skill. I will also show that a single SP invested into a missile support skill is worth ~1/3 of a single SP invested into a turret support skill. I will end with making some proposed recommendations as to ways to solve this issue.

(Note: all training times are at 2700SP/hour)

First up Base Skills: Speadsheet Image
Issue: It takes twice as much SP to train all the base missile skills to V as it does to train any one of the turret based weapon systems base skills to V. This means that a single SP invested into a base missile skill is worth ~1/2 of a single SP invested into a base turret skill.

Second up: Specialization Skills: Spreadsheet Image
Issue: There isn't one. They all match up! YAY!

Third up Support Skills: Spreadsheet Image
Issues: Not only does it take more SP to train all of the missile support skills (~1.5 mil more SP without Controlled Burst, and ~1 mil more SP with it), but the missile support skills only apply to a single weapon system. Any SP invested into turret support skills is worth three times as much when compared to missile support skills because the turret support skills affect three weapon systems.

So what are the overall totals for SP invested? Take a look. It turns out that it takes 3.32 mil more, far less effective, SP invested into missiles to get the same effectiveness as you would by maxing a single turret system. Something I found interesting is that drones take the least overall SP investment. Which is why I didn't make any comparisons between turrets, missiles, and drones.

So... what does this all mean? It means don't train missiles. The amount of time and SP you invest into missile training will be better served training any turret based weapon system. In fact, the SP you save will put you well on your way to fully training another turret based weapon system.

How do we fix it?
What I am hoping you will recommend to CCP will be something similar to this:

1. Break up the base turret skills into specialized base skills. For example, break small projectile turrets into small autocannon turret and small artillery turret skillbooks.
2. Option A: Set the training time for each specialized base turret skill to half of what the generalized skill was. In other words, set small autocannons training time to half of what it took to train small projectile turrets. (Doesn't add any training time.)
Option B: Set the training time of the specialized base turret skills to what the generalized skill was. In other words, set small autocannons training time to equal what it took to train small projectile turrets. (Doubles the training of the base turret skills.)

3. Set the training time of the base missile skills to the training time of the equivalent base turret skill. (If you went with option A you will have to refund excess SP that was spent in missiles. If you went with option B you will have to give away SP like when CCP made racial destroyers/BCs.)

That's all pretty quick and easy and solves the issue of single SP invested into a base missile skill being worth ~1/2 of a single SP invested into a base turret skill. Solving the issue that a single SP invested into a missile support skill being worth ~1/3 of a single SP invested into a turret support skill will be a little harder and uglier. The best solution could take many forms. Here is what I would recommend:

4. Unify the turret and missile support skills. Essentially have the same support skills apply to both turrets and missiles. A THEORETICAL EXAMPLE OF THAT THIS MAY LOOK LIKE. Refund excess SP that was invested into either missile or turret support skills.

Now I am sure that some of you will be quick to note that there are a myriad of differences between missiles and turrets. When I brought up the idea in F&I there were many posts about how missiles always hit, "rapid" missile systems don't exist in similar forms for turrets, Light and Heavy missiles both apply to two sizes of weapons due to the "rapid" missile systems, missiles are used on more hulls than any single turret system is, and many more reasons as to why missiles deserve longer training times. It was pretty easy to debunk these as they are not issues with the training times of the weapon systems, but flavor differences between the weapon systems and potential imbalances that should be fixed by buffs or nerfs applied directly to the weapon systems themselves. So I ask you when considering my proposal you understand that what should matter is effectiveness gained by SP investment. The base skills grant you X effectiveness, specialization skills grant you Y effectiveness, and support skills grant you Z effectiveness. If XYZ for missiles equals XYZ for Projectiles the the cost to acquire XYZ should be the same. With your help we can make this a reality. Thank you.

I will be watching this thread so feel free to post any questions or comments you have.

I support merely combining the basic missile skills into size classes: small missiles, medium missiles, large missiles, citadel missiles. A little SP refunding would do us some good to even it out. Turrets had it right, generalizing at tech one and specializing at tech two.

+1 to this

I support this, also shields take longer than armor, if I'm not mistaken. Full rebalance of missiles should include rebalancing missile train times.

That, coupled with Vs needed for T2 armor and IVs for T2 shields.


Also can't follow up on the missile SP issue. Turret supports give you three turret-lines for four races. Missile supports hand you a free choice of weapon systems for three races. From a solo/smallscale pvp-perspective, missiles are nearly always the better platform. Comparing "decent V" toons (Vs, specs to IV) for subcap gunnery and missiles, it's at 16mil and 11mil excluding dread things.

As I have come to see it...

Many of the skills their requirements and what they allow access to is so messed up and so 10 years old, that a major update should be done on fine tuning the skills themselves.

-CCP does balance pass after balance bass on ships and modules, yet imo many of the skills could use a strong pass
-If you followed the CSM minutes thread, I made a post on there about General Group SP pooling
-- Groups like Armor, shieilds navigation and other things that are general (fitting skills) would all have a shared pulled of SP. You'd be able to level and unlock the skills (after you buy and inject the book) even if you don't already have the skill. i.e. New player starts putting SP into the Armor group, something comes up and he takes two weeks off (say computer dies) he finally gets back on, instead of having no skilled anything for 2 weeks, he has applied SP for the last two weeks to all the Armor skills in a progressive since.
The gunnery skills would have general (controlled burst) and then sub-group like laser/hybrid/projectile.
All Advanced or Specialized skills would remain as they are, as indented skills.

1: Many skills are placed in a group which = the total amount of SP those skills would take independently to train.
2: Sub-groups would be created for faction ships, and gunnery/missile skills.
3: Advanced/specialized skills remain independent as this allows the player to fine tune/specialize their character.

A: General skills are considered "core skills"
B: Advanced skills are like "small pulse laser specialization"