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Starting skills levels should increase for new players
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Arline Kley
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#61 - 2015-07-22 13:46:37 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
Back when I started in 2008, new players already got a skillpoint package depending on the choice of school they made on character creation. I believe it was somewhere along the lines of 600k sp or something. Depending on the school however and on what one found worth doing in eve, those packages were sometimes rather useless.
When I started Arline I managed to start with nearly 1 million SP's from the get go, and consequently I didn't have to worry about neededing to perform capacitor management because I didn't need to slug through it (most of the skills got capped at level IV).

I still remember being in the situation where I only ever about a week from training something to T2.

"For it was said they had become like those peculiar demons, which dwell in matter but in whom no light may be found." - Father Grigori, Ravens 3:57
Avaelica Kuershin
Paper Cats
#62 - 2015-07-22 13:46:38 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
I personally don't believe in new players. It always turns out to be just a new mining alt of an old player.


Oh you cynic! Big smile

One idea that has been floating around the thread involves allocating SP according to chosen 'career'.

Now I can see how useful that would be for alts, but for the genuinely new player, that might not be nearly as useful.

When I started in 2012, I really had no idea what I was really doing and ended up putting the game on hold for a year.
Only when I came back (on this character) did I have a clearer idea of what I needed to do (Thanks EvE Uni) in terms of skill training. Even so, my training has been a bit over the place as I try different things in EvE, but the core skills I knew to train early.

So, if SP were allocated according to 'career', how would that look for:
exploration,
mining,
manufacturing,
trading,
missioning,
piracy?

And how easy to change to do something different (because mining was boring for instance) without have to wait for the skills to train.
Alexander Tekitsu
State War Academy
Caldari State
#63 - 2015-07-22 13:49:00 UTC
Why not utilize the Opportunity system for this?

People training alts don't care to run them and it may not be in line with what they want, but using it for fundamental skills would allow new players to pick up SP simply by running the tutorials in the direction they feel they want to go ( cyno should probably not be one of these options ), instead of giving them a skill book, it just grants that skill with lvl 2 or 3 sp or something, explains what that skill does and could even show the effect on their current ship if applicable.

Could also use this system to help new players understand mappings, give a rough outline for each new skill group and what mappings are best for targeting that group, however a new player that has to train "all the things" may just benefit from a 1-3 month dynamic mapping, always training at optimal, that would have no benefit for training alts ( because you understand the system and map accordingly ) and would help new players build up base skills from many areas that are not all in a line ( drones, ships/weapons, shields/armour/engineering, navigation etc. )

Just some thoughts anyways,

PS : Remaps every 6 months might be helpful as well :D
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#64 - 2015-07-22 13:59:06 UTC
Alexander Tekitsu wrote:
PS : Remaps every 6 months might be helpful as well :D

New characters already receive extra remaps.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#65 - 2015-07-22 14:03:29 UTC
I think he means skill remaps, not attribute remaps.

Daemun of Khanid
Alexander Tekitsu
State War Academy
Caldari State
#66 - 2015-07-22 14:17:00 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:
I think he means skill remaps, not attribute remaps.

No, I was talking attribute remaps. Having a completely messed up mapping for a whole year can really suck when you flip flop trying to pick up higher base skills ( drones, ships, engineering, social ). Planning for 6 months is much easier and less punishing for a change in direction as planning for a whole year. Yes, new players get 2 bonus remaps, but most new players don't plan that far ahead.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#67 - 2015-07-22 14:19:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Alexander Tekitsu wrote:
No, I was talking attribute remaps. Having a completely messed up mapping for a whole year can really suck when you flip flop trying to pick up higher base skills ( drones, ships, engineering, social ). Planning for 6 months is much easier and less punishing for a change in direction as planning for a whole year. Yes, new players get 2 bonus remaps, but most new players don't plan that far ahead.

In that case, 6 months wouldn't help much. With the 2 bonus remaps, they can flip every four months in their first year, and once they're all used up, they're hardly new players any more.

If anything, it just further highlights the fact that it's not really the mechanics that need to be adjusted, but the players.
Alexander Tekitsu
State War Academy
Caldari State
#68 - 2015-07-22 14:31:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexander Tekitsu
Tippia wrote:
In that case, 6 months wouldn't help much. With the 2 bonus remaps, they can flip every four months in their first year, and once they're all used up, they're hardly new players any more.

Quite true, if they don't use 3 remaps in the first few months, then sit on a bad mapping for the next 8-10 months. I would actually say a more "newb" friendly system would be

Dynamic mapping for first 2-3 months ( always best map )
0 bonus remaps
Remap every 6 months

This way they don't have to map at all for the first 2-3 months, once that period is up, the opportunity system can guide them by making a recommendation based on their skill queue and show the difference mappings make with respect to their queue and items in it ( a little bad->good bar for each skill to show how that mapping is for that skill set ). Then 3 months after that they can remap again, and again every 6 months after that.

During the "childhood" of a new player, there is a higher want to flip between skill sets, once you get to higher SP, the need to remap becomes less, however setting it to odd intervals just makes the system confusing ( ie. 3 months, 6 months, 1 year, 2 year, 3 year.. ) even if that would be a better way..
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#69 - 2015-07-22 14:37:39 UTC
You should start the game with at least one level of propulsion jamming, afterburner and microwarpdrive. That's pretty much all the extra skills a brand new player needs.
Avvy
Doomheim
#70 - 2015-07-22 14:57:32 UTC
Alexander Tekitsu wrote:
Tippia wrote:
In that case, 6 months wouldn't help much. With the 2 bonus remaps, they can flip every four months in their first year, and once they're all used up, they're hardly new players any more.

Quite true, if they don't use 3 remaps in the first few months, then sit on a bad mapping for the next 8-10 months. I would actually say a more "newb" friendly system would be

Dynamic mapping for first 2-3 months ( always best map )
0 bonus remaps
Remap every 6 months

This way they don't have to map at all for the first 2-3 months, once that period is up, the opportunity system can guide them by making a recommendation based on their skill queue and show the difference mappings make with respect to their queue and items in it ( a little bad->good bar for each skill to show how that mapping is for that skill set ). Then 3 months after that they can remap again, and again every 6 months after that.

During the "childhood" of a new player, there is a higher want to flip between skill sets, once you get to higher SP, the need to remap becomes less, however setting it to odd intervals just makes the system confusing ( ie. 3 months, 6 months, 1 year, 2 year, 3 year.. ) even if that would be a better way..



Can't see why you would want to use 3 remaps that quickly.

I used one within a few days, max. in intelligence and the rest in perception, made quite a difference to the training queue.

Based it on all the books I thought I needed to learn and the skills I had already. Looked at the multipliers of all those skills and that gave me what I thought was the best way to proceed. I'm happy with that decision and choice.

Still got 2 remaps left and I can't see me changing the attributes for sometime to come, as it's only going to be really necessary from what I can see when I decide to get heavily into T2 ships because of willpower and the fact by then I shouldn't need to invest as much into intelligence.

But I'm not really taking a side on this issue because if I had more remaps I'd probably end up collecting them but on the other hand for someone that does make a mistake, after 6 months they would be able to rectify that mistake. Either way it wouldn't effect me. Also I can see a possible issue if someone buys a character from the character bazaar that has the wrong attributes set for what they want to continue training with.
Tam Arai
Mi Pen Rai
#71 - 2015-07-22 14:59:28 UTC
are todays noobs worse than when everyone posting on here were noobs?

we all managed to get through it (to varying degrees of success)

surely it is all part of the learning process and benefits the long term.

I've been playing a year, i have a red killboard, im crap at pvp and im still learning new things about fits, flying ships etc- thats what i like about eve
Johnny Riko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2015-07-22 15:15:37 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
You should start the game with at least one level of propulsion jamming, afterburner and microwarpdrive. That's pretty much all the extra skills a brand new player needs.


Why?
The combined training time of all 3 of those is less than 6 hours. I agree they should guide you towards useful skills like those, but why give them? Do you need CCP to hold your hand all the time?

I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
Mehrune Khan
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#73 - 2015-07-22 15:36:28 UTC
First, if they increase starting SP all existing characters should gain that same amount in bonus SP. I've been training skills for years and this skill system is the most god awful, obnoxious, grindy skill mechanic in any game I've ever played. It galls me that I would have spent $15 a month all these years just to see newbies get free SP I never got.

Second, having to rebalance starting SP *yet again* (because they added double speed training for new characters years ago, because the skill system is hard and poor newbs) just shows that the skill system in EVE is so borked beyond all sense or reason, that they should just outright trash it. Get rid of it. No skills, they are all garbage, just let everyone use any ship or weapon they want. The game would be more fun this way.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#74 - 2015-07-22 15:38:05 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
You should start the game with at least one level of propulsion jamming, afterburner and microwarpdrive. That's pretty much all the extra skills a brand new player needs.


If you do the career missions and train skills as they give you free skillbooks (like 99% of newbies do) you will have these by the time you finish career missions anyway.

You need to look at what skills a newbie has AFTER career missions, since a new player without direction on what skills to train is going to blindly train any skill book the career missions give them anyway.
Johnny Riko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2015-07-22 15:40:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnny Riko
Mehrune Khan wrote:
First, if they increase starting SP all existing characters should gain that same amount in bonus SP. I've been training skills for years and this skill system is the most god awful, obnoxious, grindy skill mechanic in any game I've ever played. It galls me that I would have spent $15 a month all these years just to see newbies get free SP I never got.

Second, having to rebalance starting SP *yet again* (because they added double speed training for new characters years ago, because the skill system is hard and poor newbs) just shows that the skill system in EVE is so borked beyond all sense or reason, that they should just outright trash it. Get rid of it. No skills, they are all garbage, just let everyone use any ship or weapon they want. The game would be more fun this way.


pls go.

Seriously go play a game like Runescape, where you have to spend hundreds to thousands of hours actually actively grinding boring skills up by doing menial repetitive tasks endlessly to level up.

I much prefer the idea of it taking a long time but being something passive that goes on in the backround, so I can actually enjoy playing the game, rather than spending 99% of my playing time grinding the crap out of rock crabs. If you prefer it that way you're welcome to leave.

I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#76 - 2015-07-22 15:47:06 UTC
Tam Arai wrote:
are todays noobs worse than when everyone posting on here were noobs?

we all managed to get through it (to varying degrees of success)

surely it is all part of the learning process and benefits the long term.

I've been playing a year, i have a red killboard, im crap at pvp and im still learning new things about fits, flying ships etc- thats what i like about eve

The "newbro argument" is used for everything this days. Actually the OP just wants to create a new alt and wants it to start with more SP.

Evil RatKid
Alexander Tekitsu
State War Academy
Caldari State
#77 - 2015-07-22 15:57:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexander Tekitsu
Avvy wrote:
Can't see why you would want to use 3 remaps that quickly.

I used one within a few days, max. in intelligence and the rest in perception, made quite a difference to the training queue.

Based it on all the books I thought I needed to learn and the skills I had already. Looked at the multipliers of all those skills and that gave me what I thought was the best way to proceed. I'm happy with that decision and choice.

Still got 2 remaps left and I can't see me changing the attributes for sometime to come, as it's only going to be really necessary from what I can see when I decide to get heavily into T2 ships because of willpower and the fact by then I shouldn't need to invest as much into intelligence.

But I'm not really taking a side on this issue because if I had more remaps I'd probably end up collecting them but on the other hand for someone that does make a mistake, after 6 months they would be able to rectify that mistake. Either way it wouldn't effect me. Also I can see a possible issue if someone buys a character from the character bazaar that has the wrong attributes set for what they want to continue training with.

My first toon had a horrible map for the role I decided to take after leaving a corp ( was trying to get into their doctrine faster, hence burning through a couple maps ) and was stuck with it for 6 months. It can happen for various reasons, however this thread is more about how to help new players while not being of any advantage to vets setting up task specific alts ( target mapping and financial resources, I can get a freighter pilot with some decent tank skills in about 3 weeks and still have a bonus remap ). What I mentioned did not require giving them more SP or giving everyone more SP, it just allows them to be more efficient during the first part of the game when they are trying to climb tthe EVE learning curve.
Johnny Riko
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2015-07-22 16:06:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnny Riko
Alexander Tekitsu wrote:
Avvy wrote:
Can't see why you would want to use 3 remaps that quickly.

I used one within a few days, max. in intelligence and the rest in perception, made quite a difference to the training queue.

Based it on all the books I thought I needed to learn and the skills I had already. Looked at the multipliers of all those skills and that gave me what I thought was the best way to proceed. I'm happy with that decision and choice.

Still got 2 remaps left and I can't see me changing the attributes for sometime to come, as it's only going to be really necessary from what I can see when I decide to get heavily into T2 ships because of willpower and the fact by then I shouldn't need to invest as much into intelligence.

But I'm not really taking a side on this issue because if I had more remaps I'd probably end up collecting them but on the other hand for someone that does make a mistake, after 6 months they would be able to rectify that mistake. Either way it wouldn't effect me. Also I can see a possible issue if someone buys a character from the character bazaar that has the wrong attributes set for what they want to continue training with.

My first toon had a horrible map for the role I decided to take after leaving a corp ( was trying to get into their doctrine faster, hence burning through a couple maps ) and was stuck with it for 6 months. It can happen for various reasons, however this thread is more about how to help new players while not being of any advantage to vets setting up task specific alts ( target mapping and financial resources, I can get a freighter pilot with some decent tank skills in about 3 weeks and still have a bonus remap ). What I mentioned did not require giving them more SP or giving everyone more SP, it just allows them to be more efficient during the first part of the game when they are trying to climb tthe EVE learning curve.


For the record, I am an actual "real" new player, not just an alt. I've been on eve just over 3 months, and I used up ALL 3 of my remaps in the first 2 weeks of playing because I didn't know what I was doing. Just my 2 cents. I would benefit much more from a remap than extra SP.

IMO you shouldn't be allowed to remap yourself in your first mont h of playing. The increased SP gain for newbies more than makes up for it and that would allow new players a chance to learn the game and get a better understanding of things before they make mistakes they cannot change.

I wanna join up. I think I got what it takes to be a Citizen.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#79 - 2015-07-22 16:18:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
Edit: nm. Responding to pointless thread is pointless.

Daemun of Khanid
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#80 - 2015-07-22 16:21:11 UTC
Mehrune Khan wrote:
First, if they increase starting SP all existing characters should gain that same amount in bonus SP. I've been training skills for years and this skill system is the most god awful, obnoxious, grindy skill mechanic in any game I've ever played. It galls me that I would have spent $15 a month all these years just to see newbies get free SP I never got.

Huh. I think you might have pasted that message into the wrong forum.

The EVE skill training system has no grind and is one of the most brilliant things to ever grace the entire MMO market. It neatly manages to avoid every single one of the god-awful and obnoxious traps that regular grind-based progression systems create, as well as the stupidity inherent in standard level/class-based designs.

EVE's skill system lets you play the actual game rather than force you to do [random nonsensical task] until your brain starts caving in on itself from the sheer repetition.

Quote:
Second, having to rebalance starting SP *yet again* (because they added double speed training for new characters years ago, because the skill system is hard and poor newbs) just shows that the skill system in EVE is so borked beyond all sense or reason, that they should just outright trash it.

That's not really why they added double-speed training, and if you remember, it was removed because it wasn't actually a particularly good idea to begin with. It was mainly there to compensate for the idiocy of learning skills. Rebalancing starting SP also does not really tell you anything about the skill system, other than that it's very different from what most people expect — hence the many misconceptions and knowledge gaps surrounding it among new players.