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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Making mining fleets more interactive

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Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#141 - 2015-07-20 17:51:08 UTC
Kyeudo Van'mynai wrote:

That depends on the reduction in rock in relation to the reduction in yield. Suppose we have that 2000 ore / 8000 rock asteroid from earlier. Suppose that instead of averaging 400 ore and 1600 rock per cycle on a normal skiff, we instead are pulling 750 ore and 750 rock per cycle. So the rock is stripped of ore in 3 cycles instead of in 5. These are just some off-the-cuff numbers, but I think you can see the point.

Uhm no i do not see the point, 2000m3 changed to 1500m3? ok so a precision mining laser mines faster than a regular mining module.... still my t2 strip does 3,465 m3.....still dont see where your getting 3 or even 5 cycles from when i havent even used 1 full cycle in any of your examples. these lasers/changes not needed they make no change to gameply or sense for use...especially the waste rock.....waste rock as part of your proposal just has to go, it HAS to be dropped from your ideas completely.

Kyeudo Van'mynai wrote:

Something like a Concord-sanctioned mining claim beacon, purchased from Concord NPCs? Alternatively, an empire-sanctioned one that only applies in the relevant space? You are aware that Miniluv and Code would love this idea, right? They will flag the popular belts to mess with miners and get free kills on claim-jumpers and never mine a single chunk of ore.


What popular belts? they all contain the same ore types, basically have on average give or take a few thousand m3 the same amoutnt of ore in them. Only real difference is, they all are about 50% smaller than any current static belt, require a survey scanner.....fitted ON a barge, orca, exhumer, rorqual to locate, require an orca to drop the claim unit(minimum m3 being maybe 70,000 m3 which pertains to an orca full caro expanders).

Sure CODE, Goons(aka miniluv)....they could go out and grab a few of these new belt types....some one sees their claim units status, and if already marked red....avoids it or goes for it if none in local. Wont change much the aspect of things....and i dont really see CODE, Goons, ect going out of their way to claim dozens upon dozens of belts using the proposed mining ships here.
Yes, i purposelly excluded the mining frigates for scanning the belts down. 1.) newbies can still be enticed to get into player corps that do that sort of thing and looking for recruits. 2.) requires older veterans that either dont have piltos with the skills or hate being in proper mining ships to not attempt to land grab the belts. 3.) if they really want to grief miners....well now you have to run combat probes....or yes YOU do have to get into those mining ships to hunt your prey.

And besides, now it comes down to the corp mining....do you claim more than you can mine in a day? do you charge people to mine in your claims, kill them, or use the claims for recruiting more miners? Is that corp active enough to defend their claims....and if so....now they have the ability to really fight over rocks and kill other miners etc...keeping with EvE traditions here.
Kyeudo Van'mynai
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#142 - 2015-07-20 20:35:15 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:

A.) more or less that how it works, but the average player does not see it like that because they dont care about lore. What they see and do is how its working right now and there is no need to change that.

B.) Not exactly, think it was 3...but lets say yeah every current rock type gets turned into these 3 named rock types in your proposal. Well, i guess only lets say a Crystalized what ever can be found in nullsec and no where else, it would maybe refine 100 or 400 megacyte or zydrine....where the normal type might be not be in highsec but yields 50% of that amount when refined.....and i guess the porous idea of yours...wellit would have the lowest yield but at least even in highsec that yield will make highsec miners at least 3-5% less reliant on nullsec ores.....they just have to mine more in time and volume.


A) I know they don't care about lore. I barely know Eve's lore as it is mostly boring and irrelevant to the real players of the game.

B) I think I may have misunderstood your meaning. What I was talking about was a set of modifiers instead of the current three grades for each ore. Maybe "Crystalline" means the ore has 20% more Isogen but 20% less Noxicum, while "Amorphous" means the ore has 20% more Noxicum but 20% less Zydrine. So Amorphous Veldspar and Crystalline Veldspar aren't really any different than normal, but Crystalline Omber and Amorphous Hemorphite are great combinations. We could even get into concentrations on a scale, like Diffuse -> Porous -> Solid -> Rich -> Dense. Maybe Dense gives twice as much minerals as Diffuse when refined. Then we'd have stuff like Porous Crystalline Plagioclase or Rich Shimmering Crokite.

Quote:

1.) A fleet using an orca, relies on the barges/exhumers for scouting a the next belt for the best warp in point for the fleet where they can reach most if not the entire belt from range boosts in the first swipe.
2.) Again the miners are the ones doing the proper scanning anyway. so no such a scout is useless because his information will be outdated or irrelevant until the fleet is or almost is ready to land on grid.


1) I'm also suggesting larger asteroid belts, so reaching the whole belt from a single point will no longer be possible.

2) Why would the information be outdated or irrelevant by the time the mining fleet is on grid? The rocks aren't going to change composition while you are mining the other belt.

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Now as to liability, if as your trying to say you are attempting to make it impossible to not have to use these scouts....then yes even I as an Indy group would have my own gank alts destroy these scouts to grief competitors or those not yet selling their ores to me. On general note....CODE or the likes will see these scouts used more often and be able to pin point exactly who and where decent fleets are running as Actual fleets even if they are NPC characters balled together. No matter how you look at it, these scouts are useless and a liability to fleet security.


I'm not sure I'm following. Are you saying that CODE or whoever will watch-list your scout and use him to track mining fleet positions? Can't they already do that by watch-listing known miners or known mining FCs? I'm not proposing a high skill position here - someone in a rookie ship with a survey scanner can do the job well enough.

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and yes as the rocks would break apart the orca would just lock onto the pieces not being mined and tractor them close to it since the fleet is hovering close to the orca. The miners would just keep mining what ever else was out there eventually mining the rocks collected closer to the orca. Like i said no need for a noctis to be out there which 2 Cats could easily murder at a glance.


Let's say you have rocks that have an instability of about 10%. Your fleet of 10 miners will be having a rock break into 2 or more chunks every cycle on average. Your orca has the range, but with only one tractor beam, can it keep up with that volume of rocks? How about if the instability was 20%, 30%, or even 50%? 15 space rocks going all different directions every 3 minutes while your miners are trying to get at the best isk-per-hour ore?

Quote:

Ok where did you get these numbers?
If you are talking about just Veldspar....2000 units is 200 m3, that is like 5 seconds or less of cycle time
8000 units of rock....no mater how much you want this involved it can be no more then veldspar ore or less in m3 so about 800 m3.


I used "units" when I meant m3. From previous discussion, I understand that a Skiff mines at about 2000 m3 per cycle, so I used that in the example, but used the wrong measurement. I was also using a "bad" asteroid, one that I expect most people would just ignore.
Kyeudo Van'mynai
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#143 - 2015-07-20 20:38:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyeudo Van'mynai
Max Deveron wrote:

So unless you can change things without making harder on the active multiboxer, then no your adjustments are not making things with reduced time in the belts, nor are you compensating the miners for extra work....your only driving people away faster from being involved in industry.


Are you saying that I should include in the opening posts a discussion of module adjustments that would probably result as part of these changes?

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SO simply no a Highsec fleet does not go for the most valuable ore first, they start at 1 end of or half of the belt, destroy it and then take the other half...or just eat it up from one end to the other like a snake does to a meal. That my friend is called STrip mining, and what barges/exhumes are meant to do not nitpick between ore types but just take it all and not give a damn about others, because the ore is only yours when it makes it to your hangar.


I'm trying to compare what you do to what Sorra's model of operation is. You said you didn't touch the scordite because it wasn't worth your time. Is there any other ores you choose to skip or would choose to skip if they occurred in highsec?

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So we can expect you to delete this module idea then? since it is just vaporware so to speak?


Every ship starts out as a concept idea. The Venture started out as "let's merge all the racial mining frigates into just 1 ship and reassign roles to the old ones". Stats came later. T3 Destroyers started out as "Let's make a ship that has different modes you can swap between".

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Thanx for supporting my counter to your proposal...so we agree on not using noctis anymore then yeah?


Um, that's not what I wrote. I was justifying that tractor drones might have a niche to fill even with MTUs and salvage drones in existence, especially if we are talking about a rock jockey under this system.

Max Deveron wrote:

Uhm no i do not see the point, 2000m3 changed to 1500m3? ok so a precision mining laser mines faster than a regular mining module.... still my t2 strip does 3,465 m3.....still dont see where your getting 3 or even 5 cycles from when i havent even used 1 full cycle in any of your examples. these lasers/changes not needed they make no change to gameply or sense for use...especially the waste rock.....waste rock as part of your proposal just has to go, it HAS to be dropped from your ideas completely.


Please take a second look at those numbers with the understanding that I meant "m3" when I said "unit" and see if you understand what I am getting at.

You haven't made a real case for waste rock being absolutely anathema to mining. Yes, it would be an additional difficulty, but that's the point. Needing to make a judgement call about what rocks are worth your time to mine requires that some rocks not be as valuable as other rocks and works best on a sliding scale, where the bottom end gets fuzzy. Waste rock fits that purpose well.
Sorra Hibra
Doomheim
#144 - 2015-07-21 00:19:13 UTC
There are 2 necessary evils that have made mining less interactive and less new player friendly.

The first is the mining barge. Anyone old enough to remember the joys of Apoch fleet mining understands the perks of a barge. Those that don't missed out on transferring ore every 60 sec if you were lucky, sometimes every 30 sec. And that was before the Orca reduced cycle time to 45 sec. The downside is that it's now easier to pay less attention while mining, which makes it seem more boring. This is an example of CCP being more interested in making mining easier and less interactive.

The second is the PLEX. This has no direct impact to mining, but when combined with the barge it opened up the window for easy multiboxing. Multiboxing lowers income levels for players who try to solo mine, which makes it less attractive to new players. Without the multiboxing, the ore rate would skyrocket and entice more people to mine. But PLEX are needed to curb RMT.