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Battlecruisers: Projection Role Bonus

Author
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#281 - 2015-07-02 13:42:29 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
I still like the idea of them being the natural predators to Cruisers in the same way that destroyers are to frigates. Gaining a 3rd combat bonus as a role would be perfect for them, as the power they would enjoy would help balance the cruiser meta without needing it to be nerfed, and give people reason to bring battleships out to play.

Plus something like the Devilcane listed below would make for an amazing HFI to fly solo:

Minmatar Battlecruiser skill:
10% bonus to medium projectile turret damage per level
7.5% bonus to medium projectile turret tracking speed per level

Role bonus:
50% bonus to medium projectile falloff per level


It'd be like flying a Sleip without the phat shield reps lol


Yes, similar to a sleip, just without the tank bonus and more armor orientated. Though, it will have a tracking bonus, so it would still be different enough and fill another role.

As to the DNI you mentioned, that is the idea for the change. Roll the projection trait into the role bonus, give it a RoF bonus, and open up some high slots for utility/links. CCP dropped the ball on faction BCs. The faction cane and drake being the worst offenders.

Look at all the other faction BCs. Then look at the cane, wheres the tracking bonus? Wheres the amped up damage bonus? No one wants to pay 150m for the "old cane". They paid 40m for them previously because they were cheap and effective. After nano and TE nerf, the old cane is dead. The faction cane needs to be realigned with the other faction BCs.

The navy drake has interesting bonuses, but with no utility high and having to squeeze 8 launchers on a BC is taxing on fitting. Plus the whole "can fit warfare links" role bonus, but has no slots to put them in. I know CCP hates caldari.. but cmon, at least make the ship able to fit weapons and 1-2 links like every other BC. Dropping a launcher means its dps is less than t1 drake. I want to fly navy drake.. but missing a utility high for neut makes me use t1 everytime.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#282 - 2015-07-06 19:36:37 UTC
Ceh ceh peh, pls halp BC's.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#283 - 2015-07-13 13:50:34 UTC
Guess we will be hearing about CCPs latest info on BC/BS tweaks in the next week or two. Crossing my fingers that they'll be decent.

Hopefully faction BCs will have a role to fill with their changes. I know they specifically called them out.. hopefully HFI and DNI get some love.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#284 - 2015-07-13 14:06:19 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Guess we will be hearing about CCPs latest info on BC/BS tweaks in the next week or two. Crossing my fingers that they'll be decent.

Hopefully faction BCs will have a role to fill with their changes. I know they specifically called them out.. hopefully HFI and DNI get some love.


Really hope they make arty canes viable again on at least the HFI.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Dean Wong
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#285 - 2015-07-13 15:29:07 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Guess we will be hearing about CCPs latest info on BC/BS tweaks in the next week or two. Crossing my fingers that they'll be decent.

Hopefully faction BCs will have a role to fill with their changes. I know they specifically called them out.. hopefully HFI and DNI get some love.


CCP fixing something???? Shocked

We should really hope they stop breaking thingsLol

Anyway, I love to see any sort of improvements to Battlecrusiers to lift them out of their current sorry state.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#286 - 2015-07-13 20:25:04 UTC
Hey on the plus side they are slowly fixing the swishtar. .... slowly. There may be some hope for bc's

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#287 - 2015-07-20 16:28:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
I just hope they'll take a clue from this thread and others like it and give them the love they need; buffing bc's to get 3 bonuses would be one of the few ways they can kill two birds with one stone and give people good reasons to bring out battleships more often while fixing an entirely different ship class.

God knows even in FW we'd be flying battlecruisers all the time even if they couldn't fit into mediums if they got 3 bonuses.

EDIT: TBH i'd be fine with them removing the link bonuses to t1 battlecruisers and leaving it on faction as the low-sp alternative to command ships. It would 'balance' the t1 versions for gaining the extra bonus and powerful pvp increase (at least from a CCP balance perspective), and make faction battlecruisers immensely valuable.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#288 - 2015-07-20 17:14:04 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
I just hope they'll take a clue from this thread and others like it and give them the love they need; buffing bc's to get 3 bonuses would be one of a few ways they can kill two birds with one stone and give people good reasons to bring out battleships more often while fixing an entirely different ship class.

God knows even in FW we'd be flying battlecruisers all the time even if they couldn't fit into mediums if they got 3 bonuses.

EDIT: TBH i'd be fine with them removing the link bonuses to t1 battlecruisers and leaving it on faction as the low-sp alternative to command ships. It would 'balance' the t1 versions for gaining the extra bonus and powerful pvp increase (at least from a CCP balance perspective), and make faction battlecruisers immensely valuable.


I suppose i see it as a bit of the opposite.

Faction BCs should be the the epitome of an anti-cruiser ship. Tracking/projection bonuses with decent EHP/fitting/SS etc. They are what make cruisers go "oh hell" when they pop up on dscan. Instead of the current thought process of "easy kill, lets just hang out at 20km".

T1 BCs are more flexible (hence t1) in what role they fill. If you want a 50m link boat, or a 50m combat ship, either should be viable. Idk bout you, but 150m link boat is kinda steep compared to what used to be 50m.
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#289 - 2015-08-01 03:45:46 UTC
+1 to OP, sounds like a great way to give purpose to BC's and BS's.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#290 - 2015-08-03 12:59:54 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
I'll freely admit I have not read the whole thread so I will apologise up front is this is a repost, but I didn't want to open a new thread.

I've been doing some hard thinking about why these hulls (and to a lesser extent) battleships see reduced use. Looking at EHP, ranges, application, DPS and the results were less than obvious.

So I looked at speed and there it hits you. Speed is the killer, particularly in how it scales with bonuses.

I looked at the caldari line (because initially I was looking at DPS and the rails are a decent starting point).

Merlin/moa/ferox/rokh

Paper speeds:
bs 111
bc 175
cru 260
fri 388


These are not too bad, the problems start appearing with mods:

all have a x-MN cold gas enduing MWD fit:

bs 790
bc 1083
cru 1560
fri 2838


Suddenly the bigger boys are left in the dirt, completely. Add links/implants/drugs if you like, it only opens the gap wider. Left in the dirt to the point there's no sane reason to fly one.

That's the issue, to me. In terms of combat they absolutely will shred cruisers today, they just never get the chance.

I do not believe there is an issue at the frigate tier and nor do I believe we should be speeding battleships and battlecruisers up, I think we need to bring cruisers back down. Slow them down so there is a maybe ~100-150m/s (subject to debate) gap between cruisers and BC with a mod on - skew acceleration as required to suit.

Kiting remains viable, but it's not a ridiculous family guys style greased up deaf guy situation we have today.

The fear here would be that "but everyone will only fly battlecruisers!" and the fear is valid and should be discussed. I feel like the bloated BC sig, the slower warps, the lower agility would keep this from being the case. It would also introduce them back as the natural predator of cruisers and give battleships a nice target to go stomping on. A return to rock paper scissors world of cruiser>battleship>battlecruiser>cruiser.

Anyway, it's something worthy of consideration alongside this thread I think - that maybe the problem is the cruiser tier/sized hulls and not actually the other ones directly and adding projection alone (or at all, actually) might not solve it/cause other issues further down the line.

If this is a bad derail I'm sorry - just say and I'll make a new thread.


edit: After reviewing the CBC changes in here and the cruiser changes here and here I am even more convinced this is the root of the rot. Cruisers base velocity saw massive hikes (moa from 164 to 190 and caracal from 178 to 230 for example!!!), CBC were...unmoved. Again I don't think anything should get faster, I think the cruisers should be pulled back a good chunk.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#291 - 2015-08-03 14:26:39 UTC
afkalt wrote:
I'll freely admit I have not read the whole thread so I will apologise up front is this is a repost, but I didn't want to open a new thread.

I've been doing some hard thinking about why these hulls (and to a lesser extent) battleships see reduced use. Looking at EHP, ranges, application, DPS and the results were less than obvious.

So I looked at speed and there it hits you. Speed is the killer, particularly in how it scales with bonuses.

I looked at the caldari line (because initially I was looking at DPS and the rails are a decent starting point).

Merlin/moa/ferox/rokh

Paper speeds:
bs 111
bc 175
cru 260
fri 388


These are not too bad, the problems start appearing with mods:

all have a x-MN cold gas enduing MWD fit:

bs 790
bc 1083
cru 1560
fri 2838


Suddenly the bigger boys are left in the dirt, completely. Add links/implants/drugs if you like, it only opens the gap wider. Lef tin the dirt to the point there's no sane reason to fly one.

That's the issue, to me. In terms of combat they absolutely will shred cruisers today, they just never get the chance.

I do not believe there is an issue at the frigate tier and nor do I believe we should be speeding battleships and battlecruisers up, I think we need to bring cruisers back down. Slow them down so there is a maybe ~100-150m/s (subject to debate) gap between cruisers and BC with a mod on - skew acceleration as required to suit.

Kiting remains viable, but it's not a ridiculous family guys style greased up deaf guy situation we have today.

The fear here would be that "but everyone will only fly battlecruisers!" and the fear is valid and should be discussed. I feel like the bloated BC sig, the slower warps, the lower agility would keep this from being the case. It would also introduce them back as the natural predator of cruisers and give battleships a nice target to go stomping on. A return to rock paper scissors world of cruiser>battleship>battlecruiser>cruiser.

Anyway, it's something worthy of consideration alongside this thread I think - that maybe the problem is the cruiser tier/sized hulls and not actually the other ones directly and adding projection alone (or at all, actually) might not solve it/cause other issues further down the line.

If this is a bad derail I'm sorry - just say and I'll make a new thread.


Well caldari have always been extremely slow. Though there are some BCs that need tweaking. Like a raven is faster than a drake with MWD.

Nerfing cruiser speed could help slightly, but after tiericide, i dont see CCP changing that all back, as almost every ship would need to have its speed rebalanced. Looking at the "faster" race, my hurricane with some speed mods can get to 1500m/s to 2200m/s with heat. Which isnt too shabby for a BC, and is normally enough to slingshot or maintain range on target till they die.

With my cane, im right at your cruiser speed. So, looking at only caldari can be misleading, as they are the shield tanky race that is slow.

However, i would try to not look at it as a speed issue. Going back to OP, consider destroyers. They are slower than frigates. But they have no issues killing frigs. Yea you might have an ac thrasher get kited by a LML condor and die. But everything has its counter. The point is, a destroyer has bonuses to projection and tracking. That dessy is slower than most frigs, but it is irrelavent because it can track the frig at range or up close with no problem (when properly fit). It also has more EHP, so also has a moderately increased tank over its frigate targets.

Now compare that to BCs. They have more tank and EHP than cruisers, but they cant apply it. As they have no range. A stabber could still kill a HAM drake if it orbited out of missile range. Give that drake a velocity bonus to its missiles however, and that stabber can no longer orbit for ez kill. Or, for a less extreme speed example, how bout a rail thorax? It could kite most BCs with no problem. Even an ac cane couldnt project the dps to break its tank out at point range. Give the cane falloff bonus, and speed, again, becomes irrelavent.

With the combination of projection and MJD, you also force cruisers to get close if you want them to hold you through scram. Which is really where BCs shine. I believe this would really restrain cruiser blobs when you have a few BCs on your side. Since they could no longer kite around, and have to commit to the fight to bring a BC down.

OR

Upship to BS to kill the BC gang. Which means my BC gang can also upship to BS, and we can have a BS slugfest, which most of us have been missing.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#292 - 2015-08-03 14:42:47 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Don't get hung up on caldari, even a cane vs a rupture is 1303 vs 1708. It's huge differences. Adding heat it is 1852 vs 2430.

Certainly, things can be heated etc and mods added, but that applies to both sides.

They absolutely might need a little projection help (I'm not 100% sold yet, all examples are short range guns being kited by long range ones, as one would expect to happen. Aint no throax kiting an arty cane as your video showed), but I don't think it'll be enough, they can't force an engagement. They are too damned slow. Remember the cruisers that are killing them also lack the projection bonuses (for the most part).

So I'm not saying they don't need projection, just that I think speed of the cruiser tier has caused a shedload of problems and we should consider it alongside.

I really don't want to make BC faster, speed creep is hell but if we aren't willing to pull the cruisers back into line we will have to (imo).

Edit: or give them a DST style role bonus to overheating prop mods to give some more options.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#293 - 2015-09-04 22:17:02 UTC
Don't mind me, I'm just putting this back to the front page where it belongs.

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This is the law of ship progression!

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Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#294 - 2015-09-05 04:15:38 UTC
BC updates incoming? Or Soon™?
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#295 - 2015-09-05 05:19:48 UTC
for Ferox, let it keep its 10% optimal range plus 50% role bonus. it would be same idea as Cormorant which do have double range bonus.
Kasia en Tilavine
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#296 - 2015-09-05 06:41:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Kasia en Tilavine
I doubt we will see BC rebalance or Assault frig rebalance until early next year. Because "monitoring sov changes"
Dato Koppla
Kiwis In Space
Shadow Cartel
#297 - 2015-09-05 07:27:53 UTC
Just dropping in to say I agree with the range bonus proposal and that Stitch knows what he's talking about when it comes to BCs.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#298 - 2015-09-05 08:48:48 UTC
The only thing I disagree with is the falloff bonus for the Brutix,

Looking at a Heavy Neutron Blaster II (Null) your base ranges are 6300m + 8800m.
A falloff bonus would lead to a range of 6300m + 13200m = 19500m @ falloff.
An optimal bonus would lead to a range of 9450 + 8800 = 18250 @ falloff.

While it is slightly less range you have better damage application with an optimal bonus and it would then also work well with railguns.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#299 - 2015-09-05 09:50:26 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
The only thing I disagree with is the falloff bonus for the Brutix,

Looking at a Heavy Neutron Blaster II (Null) your base ranges are 6300m + 8800m.
A falloff bonus would lead to a range of 6300m + 13200m = 19500m @ falloff.
An optimal bonus would lead to a range of 9450 + 8800 = 18250 @ falloff.

While it is slightly less range you have better damage application with an optimal bonus and it would then also work well with railguns.


Yes but then you have a Caldari Ferox and a Gallente Ferox - the Caldari Ferox can already shoot into long point range with null and the falloff bonus would better fit into an Astarte.

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Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#300 - 2015-09-05 10:00:23 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
The only thing I disagree with is the falloff bonus for the Brutix,

Looking at a Heavy Neutron Blaster II (Null) your base ranges are 6300m + 8800m.
A falloff bonus would lead to a range of 6300m + 13200m = 19500m @ falloff.
An optimal bonus would lead to a range of 9450 + 8800 = 18250 @ falloff.

While it is slightly less range you have better damage application with an optimal bonus and it would then also work well with railguns.


Yes but then you have a Caldari Ferox and a Gallente Ferox - the Caldari Ferox can already shoot into long point range with null and the falloff bonus would better fit into an Astarte.

Look at the catalyst and the cormorant, the have the same optimal role bonus but don't obsolete each other.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.