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FozzieSov and the future of entosising

Author
Crimson Draufgange
The Seven Shadows
#1 - 2015-07-20 01:35:23 UTC
Correct me if I'm wrong, but CCP's intentions with the most recent update to null sec is to shake null sec up. By shake up, I mean destabilize large aliances that hold vast amounts of sov, and give opportunities to small alliances to take sov. That's the whole idea behind FozzieSov and the entosis mechanic. From my observations thus far, large alliances will still hold as much sov today and tomorrow as they did a year ago. Why and how? Because the alliances that hold regions of sov have many many pilots in their aliance. Any smaller alliances that try to come in and take sov will get crushed and blocked out entirely. Small alliances will not be able to take sov with their 500 members because the 8,000 member alliance will stop all attempts made by the small alliance.

I understand that not all of null sec is held by large aliances, but if CCP really wants to shake up null sec, I propose the following changes:

Entosis Capture Times:
I propose that the number of pilots that an alliance has affects how fast a sov structure belonging to that alliance is captured. The more members an alliance has, the faster it will be to capture or entosis structures belonging to that alliance. The fewer members an alliance has, the slower it will be to capture or entosis structures.

Think about this: an alliance with 5k+ members can respond much faster and with much greater force than an alliance with 500 members. So it makes sense that the large alliance's structures should take less time to reinforce than a structure belonging to a smaller alliance.

The Median:
So what defines an alliance as being large or small? There needs to be a way to find the average size of a player owned alliance in EVE. With this, you can make a sort of graph to determine the speed of time it takes to capture a structure or put it into reinforcement.

Basically, CCP would have to make some sort of calculator that takes all the alliances in EVE online, adds the number of all members belonging to all those alliances, then divides the sum by the total number of alliance in EVE, and that number is your average, or the median. That is the number that determines how fast a structure is entosised.

For example, let's say that the average number of members in an eve alliance is 1k. This means that structures belonging to an alliance with 1k members takes 0% less time to capture. Now, let's say an alliance of 3k members holds a sov structure. Since that alliance has 2k more members than the average eve alliance, structures belonging to that alliance will take 20% less time to capture. For every 1k members over the average, a structure takes 10% less time to capture. For every 100 members over the average, a structure takes 1% less time to capture. The same applies to alliances that have a total pilot count that is under the average. So, for an alliance with 500 members, structures belonging to that alliance take 5% longer to capture.

I know this raises some concerns such as "an alliance with 11,000 members get their structures entosised 100% faster than normal." Perhaps, instead of a linear model used for these calculations, an exponential model could be used. With an exponential model, the alliance with 11k members get their structures entosised 80% or 85% faster than normal. This would eliminate the ability to instantly reinforce structures belonging to massive alliances. It would still take some time.

Exploitation of this system:
No matter what new mechanic or system you implement into EVE, the EVE players will find a way to exploit it. So, I've taken the liberty to figure out how I would exploit my own system.

The first method:
If massive alliances want the benefits of having longer capture times on their structures, basically, what they would have to do is break the alliance down into several dozen smaller alliances. Only one of these smaller alliances would need to hold all the sov that the previous large alliance held, and ta-da: you have the same group of players holding the same amount of space with the benefit of longer capture times on their structures. But oh, wait, if the large alliance split up into dozens of smaller alliances, that would affect the average number of players in an EVE alliance. This means the capture times of their structures won't be any longer than before. So this first method of exploitation is out.

The second method:
This second method is similar to the first. Instead of breaking the entire alliance into smaller alliances, the alliance makes another alliance. This other alliance would have as few members needed and would hold ALL of the sov for the large alliance that it's supporting. This would work around the calculations and would work in favor of the large alliance. Essentially, the alliances holds the same number of systems with the added benefit of much slower capture times for all their structures.

Working around the second method of exploitation:
So, how can the second method of exploitation be prevented?

First method of prevention:
To prevent minuscule alliances from holding sov for massive alliances, there could be a member cap needed to hold sov. (Not sure if there is one already). This would help mitigate the second method of exploitation but would not prevent it entirely.

CONTINUED ON THE SECOND POST OF THIS THREAD

My Velator is overpowered.

"I use my hairgel to tackle my targets because it has a long lasting firm hold." - Me.

Crimson Draufgange
The Seven Shadows
#2 - 2015-07-20 01:35:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Crimson Draufgange
Second method of prevention:
I heard somebody somewhere propose this idea, or something like it. If I could remember who and where, I would give credit to them. If this idea I'm about to present sounds familiar to you and you can provide proof (links) to the original idea, please do. I think I first heard about this idea or a rendition of this idea on either TheMittani.com, EN24, or EVE subreddit. Anyway, the idea is this:

In order to make sov holding somewhat lucrative, IHUBs need to be changed so that bonuses that IHUBs give to systems can only be utilized by the alliance that owns the IHUB. I'm not an expert on IHUB structures and their upgrades, but they need to be changed in a way so that they benefit ONLY the alliance members that own them, irregardless of alliance standings. This would mean that if the large alliance wants all the benefits of living in their own space, they need to own the space they're living in.

_________________________________________

So, what do you guys think? I know I'm terrible with words and I often have hard times expressing my thoughts and idea's. So I hope that what I said here means the same to you as it does to me.

Please keep thread flaming to a minimal.

My Velator is overpowered.

"I use my hairgel to tackle my targets because it has a long lasting firm hold." - Me.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#3 - 2015-07-20 01:50:30 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
So, the mere threat of jump fatigue was enough to cause CFC to give up Delve, Querious, and Period Basis. The announcement of Fozziesov was enough to give up Fountain. All but one of the major coalitions is defunct. That remaining one has contracted it's space considerably. It sounds to me like CCP's intent is met. Now stop being bad, stop whining on the forums, and just go play Eve.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#4 - 2015-07-20 01:55:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliances

there are plenty of alliances without 1000+ members that hold space. In fact, there are also plenty of 1000+ member alliances that hold less sov than smaller ones. So whats your point?

also, the one 4-man alliance holding a system seems to be an oddity...

and a one man alliance holding a system? wtf is going on.
Crimson Draufgange
The Seven Shadows
#5 - 2015-07-20 04:30:42 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
So, the mere threat of jump fatigue was enough to cause CFC to give up Delve, Querious, and Period Basis. The announcement of Fozziesov was enough to give up Fountain. All but one of the major coalitions is defunct. That remaining one has contracted it's space considerably. It sounds to me like CCP's intent is met. Now stop being bad, stop whining on the forums, and just go play Eve.


You're talking about pre-FozzieSov, before the actual update was deployed. I'm talking about post-FozzieSov and what it's going to be like now that the patch is actually out. Things were different when people were worrying their butts off.

My Velator is overpowered.

"I use my hairgel to tackle my targets because it has a long lasting firm hold." - Me.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#6 - 2015-07-20 06:38:57 UTC
Crimson Draufgange wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
So, the mere threat of jump fatigue was enough to cause CFC to give up Delve, Querious, and Period Basis. The announcement of Fozziesov was enough to give up Fountain. All but one of the major coalitions is defunct. That remaining one has contracted it's space considerably. It sounds to me like CCP's intent is met. Now stop being bad, stop whining on the forums, and just go play Eve.


You're talking about pre-FozzieSov, before the actual update was deployed. I'm talking about post-FozzieSov and what it's going to be like now that the patch is actually out. Things were different when people were worrying their butts off.


Now that the patch is out... go play the game.

If you want to find some place to set up sov, I'm sure you can do it if you are half-way competent. Hell, I was a member of Intrepid Crossing for a couple of years and even we managed to hold sov. If your goal is to own sov somewhere in Eve, nothing is stopping you from doing that. If your goal is to take over Deklein, well, you have a ways to go.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Anthar Thebess
#7 - 2015-07-20 08:53:39 UTC
Tbh.
The amount of players in CFC ranks that occupy space in the north is big - so i guess in the terms ppl / systems they deserve to have this much - especially when they are defending them.

Look at whole eve. There are still multiple places where no one lives , or people overarching them self.
BL took almost whole region while having ~1.5k chars.
Detroit , insmother , Cache, Immensa , Catch , Provi , Feytha .... - totally overreached sov holdings.
All of them are heavily underpopulated , the border regions have big downside of logistic nightmare , and lack of content , as you will be always late for any big fight.

There is plenty of space, but CCP need to make more "harsh" decisions, and make border regions more exposed.
We need just more gate connections , not increased capital jump range , but classic gate to gate routes that will allow people to contest all this space.

Capitals moving by gates are much easier target than those jumping by station cynos.

Karti Aivo
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2015-07-20 09:12:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Karti Aivo
War of attrition on the forums, nice.

Please Mr Göbbels force your ideas on how people have to "play the game right" onto them.
You could "concentrate" all members of large alliances into special camps, how would you like that?


Yet, you realize theres shitlords who actually own more space than goons and now struggle terribly to defend a single timer?
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2015-07-20 09:18:55 UTC
But OP, wasn't the point of fozziesov to reward people who actually live in their space by making it harder to capture? Hence the entire activity defence multiplier mechanic?

Why would they go in and remove half of their new system after one week just because an 1100 man alliance can't capture systems from a group ten times their size who not only live in their space, but are actively defending it against you?

As we always ask in these threads, why should people be punished for having friends?
FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#10 - 2015-07-20 11:16:57 UTC
so what you want is for Goons to have 12 alliances with a few guys instead of 1 alliance with alot of guys...

Explain how this changes anything but the name on the sov holder list
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#11 - 2015-07-20 13:11:12 UTC
FFS, at least give it a few months before filling the tear bucket

From a lot of the comments on reddit, most people don't even know how the mechanics actually work or how to deal with trolls effectively


PL may not hold sov, but we are generally pretty good at trolling and annoying the heck out of people, and so far not one person has used any effective means on us.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#12 - 2015-07-20 13:39:53 UTC
Giving up already?

Sigh. I can't say it's entirely unexpected by now.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2015-07-20 14:37:39 UTC
*collect all the tears*

Are you mad because your to weak to fight the imperium ?


Why should it be harder to defend space for larger alliances ? Only because they can bring a bigger fleet?

Just because we don´t play docking games like some other scrubs and defend our space with force you want CCP to make our live harder.

You have plenty of time to attack our sov. Just get some friends and give us some content.


-1 Such a bad idea
Viktor Corgo
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2015-07-20 14:48:54 UTC
But, according to Gen Eve,

"Gen Eve" wrote:
"The attackers now have all the advantage as opposed the defenders. This game has been so long in favour of the defenders. This is a MONUMENTAL CHANGE. Empires will fall, coalitions will crumble, alliances will go bancropt, some will make it, some not. We will RF as many sov systems as we can. CFC WILL lose sov, will lose systems etc etc"

"CFC will hurt from this more then ever. We will be able and WILL challenge entire constalations away from CFC."



...are you saying that a system where "attackers now have all the advantage" isn't enough for you? Sad How many more of our "constalations" must fall?

159Pinky
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#15 - 2015-07-20 15:48:27 UTC
No:
For one this will make the game too complicated.
Two, there are so many workarounds: like you said make a small holder alliance with active chars to catch pings from getting entosissed ( or whatever you call it ) and fuel stuff. Then you form up a fleet with your main alliance and protect the couple of entosis guys from the holding alliance.
Three: this looks like you want to adress the CFC. They allready shrunk and from what I've seen they are responding quiet nicely. Last night we were very close but SMA managed to get a big enough blob on field just in time. Props to them cause it was a nice fight.

Face it: MOA alone cannot take sov away from CFC. For people claiming otherwise, prove it and I'll admit I'm wrong but untill then I stick to my point.
Akballah Kassan
Flames Of Chaos
The Ancients.
#16 - 2015-07-20 15:58:09 UTC
TBH I don't really see why an alliance should be punished for having lots of members and I'm sure somebody (grrr goons) would find a way around it anyway.
Akballah Kassan
Flames Of Chaos
The Ancients.
#17 - 2015-07-20 16:02:19 UTC
159Pinky wrote:
No:


Face it: MOA alone cannot take sov away from CFC. For people claiming otherwise, prove it and I'll admit I'm wrong but untill then I stick to my point.


Got to agree with this. We can harass and annoy, push timers and get fights that way but we could never actually take any Sov off Goons.

I don't want to be in a Sov holding alliance anyway, that's why I chose MOA. :)

Zack1023
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#18 - 2015-07-20 17:16:08 UTC
Grr goons
Kale Freeman
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2015-07-20 17:31:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Kale Freeman
deleted
Skalar Bakru
Doomheim
#20 - 2015-07-20 18:01:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Skalar Bakru
If you try to conquer space owned by sb which is the superior military force compared to you U SHOUDN'T GET THIS SOV.

My friend, there are diffrent areas in Nullsec than Pure Blind. Just go there and take it. Thanks to the recent update even Provi is decent space. So, go back to being irrelevant and grr gons
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