These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Market Discussions

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Market Tactics

Author
Jammer Tonaskit
Salishan Limited
Intaki-Business Logistics Union
#1 - 2015-07-19 02:46:54 UTC
Why would someone deliberately (at least, I assume it was deliberate) remove the profit margin from an item?

That is, an item is trading with some profit margin. Things are bumping along swimmingly, People are buying the item at X and selling it at 1.35X.

All of a sudden, someone dumps a thousand items on the market at X.

It's selling at or very close (within a few cents) of the buy price. So the profit would be negative.

What's the point of this tactic?
0000000000ZERO0000000000
Zero Zentharis
#2 - 2015-07-19 03:38:14 UTC
Buy order filled thus the difference between buy order and however many items he put up, became a sell order. Its not a tactic, its people dumping too much. Just buy it off and resell.
Alexi Stokov
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2015-07-19 04:03:21 UTC
They could be trying to bait you into under cutting them and selling to their buy order
Avi Shekelstien
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2015-07-19 09:53:22 UTC
Perhaps they got it cheaper from a different market and can't be bothered with 0.01 no lifers?
Cista2
EVE Museum
#5 - 2015-07-19 10:00:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Cista2
0000000000ZERO0000000000 wrote:
Buy order filled thus the difference between buy order and however many items he put up, became a sell order. Its not a tactic, its people dumping too much. Just buy it off and resell.
This is what happened. It happens occasionally to anyone that tries to sell a bunch to a buy order. Then you remind yourself "in 5 minutes I must adjust my order down to the next buy order" but sometimes you get distracted and forget all about it, so it just sits there for some time.

My channel: "Signatures" -

Betty Bravo
Careby Exploration
#6 - 2015-07-19 13:50:43 UTC
When people behave in a way you think is illogical, whether intentionally or by accident, it creates an opportunity for you to put your knowledge and skill to the test.

If you think the margin on an item is too low, then you must think either the sell is too low, or the buy is too high, or both. If that's the case, there is only one thing to do. Take the other side of the trade! If you profit, you can pat yourself on the back. If not, then you can learn why not.

How boring it would be if all market prices were where I think they should be!

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#7 - 2015-07-19 14:54:30 UTC
Sometimes I do that for fun and angry mails. "THE PROFITS! WHY YOU BREAK THE PROFITS!". It's the nature of the sandbox that you have to find ways to amuse yourself.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Almiel
Dark Venture Corporation
#8 - 2015-07-19 20:59:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Almiel
One other reason would be to protect the spread. For example, if the margin on a certain item is normally 3% and for one reason or another it increases dramatically due to a supply/demand imbalance it will re-balance in time. If I'm holding a bunch of stock I do not want to see the sell price drop as it may devalue my inventory by the potential drop of buy prices, especially if there is no real basement . So going in and bumping up the buy orders with some small orders can force others to bump their orders and this can quickly stabilize the margin back to 3% thus keeping my inventory safe. The same reasoning for the other way around.

It is also good in manipulating the markets to lead it into an unnatural direction and getting the price points into the position you want them prior to unloading or buying up inventory. The graphs left behind by manipulations are my favorite kind of killmail Twisted
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#9 - 2015-07-20 07:24:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Sabriz Adoudel
Sometimes you just want to burn the profit margins entirely until your competitors give up.

I do this occasionally with small-ish quantities of something.

Sometimes, also, the buy order 0.01 ISK below it is mine, and the sell order is just a small one that will be replaced each time it sells, and I really want to buy this item.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#10 - 2015-07-20 07:27:52 UTC
Avi Shekelstien wrote:
Perhaps they got it cheaper from a different market and can't be bothered with 0.01 no lifers?


I've done this too, but it's not for exactly that reason.

I mostly operate in Sinq Laison. In the uncommon scenario that I set up a big sell order in Jita, Uedama or Amarr, I usually undercut quite deep because I won't be in region to modify my order.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Jammer Tonaskit
Salishan Limited
Intaki-Business Logistics Union
#11 - 2015-07-20 07:51:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Jammer Tonaskit
I just realized I stated the case incorrectly.

People have buy orders up for some item at X, and there are a bunch of that item for sale at 1.35 X.

Suddenly some guy puts up a buy order for a thousand units at 1.35 X.

I don't see any point at all to this tactic. It won't make any money for whoever does it, it doesn't increase the value of the item.
Melissa Redoran
#12 - 2015-07-20 20:35:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Melissa Redoran
When you buy all you need in sell - prices go up
If its an item you need regularly at large quantities - do you want this to happen?
Setting up a buy order you need to update over and over and over, but if you set up orders like you mentioned, maybe some reseller notice this and drops stored items for you.
Prices won´t go up - resellers are happy because of instant cash - you are happy with a large bulk of items @ fixed price

But this is eve so propably someone just wants to destroy competition Roll

EDIT
- don´t assume profitmargins are relevant for ALL players
- don´t ignore prices in all the other regions (!+ sov null) for an item (even buying directly for 1.35X at your particular station can result in 100% profit or more for the guy doing this)
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#13 - 2015-07-21 05:09:33 UTC
Jammer Tonaskit wrote:
I just realized I stated the case incorrectly.

People have buy orders up for some item at X, and there are a bunch of that item for sale at 1.35 X.

Suddenly some guy puts up a buy order for a thousand units at 1.35 X.

I don't see any point at all to this tactic. It won't make any money for whoever does it, it doesn't increase the value of the item.


Ah OK.

Where is the buy order for 1000 units located?

If it's in the hub, it's a poor attempt at price manipulation.

If it's at another location, it's either someone buying for personal use (I do this with datacores as I invent away from a hub, although I'd put a buy order at 1.2 X; I also do this for production) or it's someone market manipulating.

I often post buy orders in dangerous lowsec stations for high prices when I want someone in the hub to outbid me.

Finally though, it could be someone speculating the item will go up in price. They buy up most of what is for sale at 1.35X, leave a little (in the hope sellers don't move their prices up) and post a huge buy order. I did this recently on Taranis interceptors in Dodixie, there were about 70 at a low price, so I bought 60 of them (leaving 10 cheap ones unpurchased) and posted a buy order that was significantly better than the next best buy order. I'm selling through that stock now, but the 10 I left up allowed me to both buy a few more and keep competitors uninterested in the market for a little longer.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Alt Pilot1
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2015-07-23 19:37:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Alt Pilot1
Jammer Tonaskit wrote:
Why would someone deliberately (at least, I assume it was deliberate) remove the profit margin from an item?

That is, an item is trading with some profit margin. Things are bumping along swimmingly, People are buying the item at X and selling it at 1.35X.

All of a sudden, someone dumps a thousand items on the market at X.

It's selling at or very close (within a few cents) of the buy price. So the profit would be negative.

What's the point of this tactic?


I don't really think this is considered trading tactic, because it doesn't work against more experienced traders.

Not even necessarily "more experienced" traders - it just doesn't work on any trader who doesn't give a damn, and they don't mind waiting.

For example, if another trader deliberately removes all the profit margin from an item. You just keep your sell order there, for as long as it takes.

Because: you already have Tycoon trained up so you have plenty of slots. You have Margin Trading trained up so you don't tie up too much capital if it's a Buy Order. And also, you have other Trading Alts for different regions, all with Tycoon + Margin Trading trained. There are thousands of systems.

When I was trading a long time ago, what I did was: 1 Alt sitting on the border of Lonetrek / The Citadel / The Forge. 1 Alt sitting on the border of Domain / Tash Murkon / Devoid. 1 Alt sitting on border of Sinq Laison / Essense. And 1 Alt sitting on border of Heimatar / Metropolis. Each Alt only has to make 1 - 2 jumps to switch to a different region, and you have all high volume regions covered.

You can make it a little experiment to see how long the other trader can keep doing this at no profit, before they burn themselves out. Since your order is always there, you can get right back into the system as soon as you see the order starts moving again. Or, check back once in a while to see if that trader stopped doing it.

Sometimes, I do what you described - cutting out all the profit margin. But I only do this in Jita, and I never do it as a trading tactic.

So I only do it if I want to get rid of a stack of item that I don't want, but the buy order is just too low or non-existent. So I might set the Sell Order at midpoint. If you follow, I might go lower.

But at some point, I might just lose patience and fill the buy orders. Or I might just leave the sell order there indefinitely, because I don't feel like updating it, and I don't need the ISK.

So I think the "tactic" that you are describing is mostly done by people just trying to get rid of items, or an industrialist / manufacturer trying to sell a stack of items.

Because if it's a trader doing it - if there's no profit, they will eventually burn themselves out. If they don't - then make a little experiment out of it to see how long they last.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#15 - 2015-07-24 00:09:57 UTC
Alt Pilot1 wrote:
Jammer Tonaskit wrote:
Why would someone deliberately (at least, I assume it was deliberate) remove the profit margin from an item?

That is, an item is trading with some profit margin. Things are bumping along swimmingly, People are buying the item at X and selling it at 1.35X.

All of a sudden, someone dumps a thousand items on the market at X.

It's selling at or very close (within a few cents) of the buy price. So the profit would be negative.

What's the point of this tactic?


I don't really think this is considered trading tactic, because it doesn't work against more experienced traders.

Not even necessarily "more experienced" traders - it just doesn't work on any trader who doesn't give a damn, and they don't mind waiting.

For example, if another trader deliberately removes all the profit margin from an item. You just keep your sell order there, for as long as it takes.

Because: you already have Tycoon trained up so you have plenty of slots. You have Margin Trading trained up so you don't tie up too much capital if it's a Buy Order. And also, you have other Trading Alts for different regions, all with Tycoon + Margin Trading trained. There are thousands of systems.

When I was trading a long time ago, what I did was: 1 Alt sitting on the border of Lonetrek / The Citadel / The Forge. 1 Alt sitting on the border of Domain / Tash Murkon / Devoid. 1 Alt sitting on border of Sinq Laison / Essense. And 1 Alt sitting on border of Heimatar / Metropolis. Each Alt only has to make 1 - 2 jumps to switch to a different region, and you have all high volume regions covered.

You can make it a little experiment to see how long the other trader can keep doing this at no profit, before they burn themselves out. Since your order is always there, you can get right back into the system as soon as you see the order starts moving again. Or, check back once in a while to see if that trader stopped doing it.

Sometimes, I do what you described - cutting out all the profit margin. But I only do this in Jita, and I never do it as a trading tactic.

So I only do it if I want to get rid of a stack of item that I don't want, but the buy order is just too low or non-existent. So I might set the Sell Order at midpoint. If you follow, I might go lower.

But at some point, I might just lose patience and fill the buy orders. Or I might just leave the sell order there indefinitely, because I don't feel like updating it, and I don't need the ISK.

So I think the "tactic" that you are describing is mostly done by people just trying to get rid of items, or an industrialist / manufacturer trying to sell a stack of items.

Because if it's a trader doing it - if there's no profit, they will eventually burn themselves out. If they don't - then make a little experiment out of it to see how long they last.



One difficulty here is that sometimes the person dumping stock isn't a trader working on the same information you have.

Let's take an example where I poisoned the well for a very specific reasons. Rattlesnakes.

I'd been buying Rattlesnakes since the pirate frigate rebalance was announced - they were the cheapest and weakest pirate BS prior to the rebalance and so had the most to potentially gain. (Obviously the Gila gained more but that could not be predicted).

I was slowly selling off Rattlesnakes and had a dozen or so left when a patch occured that contained a note I didn't grasp the significance of. "Exploration - changes have been made to anomoly escalation mechanics".

I realised a little too late what the change actually meant - a significant supply increase, and as soon as I did I got right out. I sold 3/4 of my remaining stock to buy orders, but there weren't enough buy orders in Dodixie to fill them all (and **** hauling) so I posted the last ones as sell orders at the old sell price.

In short - I panic sold when it was correct to panic sell.

To another trader, what I did looked just like poisoning the well does.

So if you see someone poisoning the well, buy one unit to find out who is doing it, and ask yourself "Are they an idiot, or do they know something I do not know?" If it's the latter, consider exiting the market.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Alt Pilot1
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2015-07-24 00:42:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Alt Pilot1
You are right about the low-volume, high priced items.

But it's only viable to trade them at the few major market hubs like Jita, Amarr, Dodixie, Rens. Otherwise the orders would take forever to executive, if they execute at all. But for trading I've always avoided the major market hubs altogether, because there is too much 0.01.

However, I don't see how it would be beneficial to find out who is the person behind the order. There could be a variety of reasons, but at the end, they need to sell X units at this price.

I think the only time when this is slightly beneficial, is when you find out who is the person behind the order. Then you look up their "Completed Contracts" history. Maybe their "Completed Contracts" history will show you if they are stockpiling, or dumping. Most of the time it doesn't, if all the transactions are done through the market window.

For example a while back, the prices for CA-1 and CA-2 crashed when CCP gifted them the second time. I started stockpiling because the price was cheap. And also, because I looked at Mynna's contract history, and at that time it looks like he's been stockpiling the CA-1 and CA-2. (CA-3 and CA-4 were not released yet). So that's just an example of how this information can be seldomly useful.

The massive scaling that I was referring to can only be applied to high volume items.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#17 - 2015-07-24 01:11:02 UTC
Alt Pilot1 wrote:
You are right about the low-volume, high priced items.

But it's only viable to trade them at the few major market hubs like Jita, Amarr, Dodixie, Rens. Otherwise the orders would take forever to executive, if they execute at all. But for trading I've always avoided the major market hubs altogether, because there is too much 0.01.

However, I don't see how it would be beneficial to find out who is the person behind the order. There could be a variety of reasons, but at the end, they need to sell X units at this price.

I think the only time when this is slightly beneficial, is when you find out who is the person behind the order. Then you look up their "Completed Contracts" history. Maybe their "Completed Contracts" history will show you if they are stockpiling, or dumping. Most of the time it doesn't, if all the transactions are done through the market window.

The massive scaling that I was referring to can only be applied to high volume items.


The person matters, because if it's a person who I respect as competent, I will assume they know what they are doing.

Take Nanomechanical Microprocessor as an example.

Current Jita spread: 32.3k-33.75k. Turnover high.
Current Dodixie spread: 27.1k-48k. Turnover low. (Personal interest disclosure - the 3604 unit sell order is me. Turnover is low enough that I don't care about maybe burning knowledge of this as good to trade).

If someone dumps 100k units of these onto the Jita market at 32.3k and a further 25k units in Dodixie at 32.3k, alarm bells will go off in my mind. I'll buy one to see who it is.

If it's some random in a corp named "Tech 2 Productions Limited" I might buy them out, assuming they have made a mistake dumping on small buy orders and the remainder is overflow. If it's GankYou, or X ATM 092, or mynnna (when he played) or someone else I know to be a market speculator, I'd exit the market in a controlled manner, because I would respect their signal.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Alt Pilot1
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2015-07-24 01:19:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Alt Pilot1
Then perhaps you know more about Jita trading than I do. Because I never traded in Jita (or Amarr, Dodixie, Rens), too much 0.01.

However, I did dump my stock at the trading hubs from time to time.

As a speculator, Jita is also the only place that I operate now, but this isn't my holdings pilot, so you won't see any transactions from me =P But what you're saying does make sense.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#19 - 2015-07-24 04:08:46 UTC
Alt Pilot1 wrote:
Then perhaps you know more about Jita trading than I do. Because I never traded in Jita (or Amarr, Dodixie, Rens), too much 0.01.

However, I did dump my stock at the trading hubs from time to time.

As a speculator, Jita is also the only place that I operate now, but this isn't my holdings pilot, so you won't see any transactions from me =P But what you're saying does make sense.


I pretty much only use Jita for selling blueprints (on contracts) and to bulk buy from sell orders. Although last night (time of post minus 15 hours) I did a rare buyup/relist higher of an item that seems to have worked out OK.

Dodixie I'm fine with the 0.01 wars. Yeah they suck on some items (Heavy Neutron Blaster II, I'm thinking of you right now) but I take a disruptive approach to 0.01ing - sometimes poisoning the well, sometimes tricking people into undercutting me in order to buy them out, and other times closing margins without poisoning the well to annoy people - and it generally works.

The main thing is there's less competition than in Jita.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Jdestars
Stars Research systems Incorporation
#20 - 2015-07-24 14:20:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Jdestars
Jammer Tonaskit wrote:
Why would someone deliberately (at least, I assume it was deliberate) remove the profit margin from an item?


QMC ?( Question multiple choice)

- They are low IRL skill in Market
- small gain but quick multi gain
- The sale at a loss to dry up the competition
- Maybe they dont have any idea to do x10 or more margin

( Mark one or several good answers if there is )


0.01 isk rules and macroter pollute the market, selling at low price its same that giving "amno" for theire gun in this war ...

Nota : The people who hold stocks fix the Median, those who have Isk set the prices.