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The Tragedy of Sana Clarret

Author
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#81 - 2015-07-18 22:51:03 UTC
Nauplius wrote:
I reject the wayward and liberal Empire's notion that slaves are to be rehabilitated.


You keep using this word. It doesn't mean what you think it means.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#82 - 2015-07-19 04:52:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Word of a pirate scumlord doesn't matter, and he can throw his fancy nobility title out of the window as soon as he becomes a criminal. If not for CONCORD's greed and corruption someone would have been re-enslaved by now for his crimes. Same goes for heretics, what they spew or think means jack.


You misunderstand a little, Ensign Vellum.

I'm not at all addressing the validity of Sinjin Mokk's claim, or Odelya d'Hanguest's. The validity of those claims is ... kind of irrelevant to me. Why would it matter to me what the quality of their blood actually is?

What upsets me is the nature of the attacks being flung at your superior.

Silence, servant. Know your place.

It's a claim of superiority, not by ability, not by merit, but by blood. It's something that has undoubtedly been thrown in the Lieutenant's face all her life (and possibly, to a lesser degree, at yours).

It's an attempt to play on a vulnerability that your culture intentionally planted, and that Sinjin and Odelya know about because they come from that same environment. That she appears unaffected (unsurprisingly, since she undoubtedly views the source about the way you do) is irrelevant; it's an attempted low blow on a target whose vulnerability to it was programmed.

I found a lot to admire in your Empire, Ensign. ... I guess now it's clear what I couldn't bring myself to admire, or even accept: the idea that some are superior to others by right of birth alone, that it's acceptable to teach a child that she is inferior by blood.

I said my share of "milords" while visiting the Empire. They got increasingly hard to say without irony.

The fact that I could almost call Sinjin a friend probably has a part in how angry this makes me, as well. Very simply, I expected better from him.


Nauplius wrote:
Nothing you say will alter my behavior. I will continue to "shatter" my slaves each and every day. Amen. Amarr Victor.


"And in conclusion: Bwahahaha!"
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#83 - 2015-07-19 05:27:56 UTC
Please stop. Please take this argument to private mediums. It is derailing from the purpose of this thread.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#84 - 2015-07-19 06:00:52 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Please stop. Please take this argument to private mediums. It is derailing from the purpose of this thread.

As you wish, Divine Commodore.

Ashlar, Sinjin, Odelya: I've said all I mean to, and maybe more than I ought to have.

You can reach me by other means, if you must.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#85 - 2015-07-19 13:12:06 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Word of a pirate scumlord doesn't matter, and he can throw his fancy nobility title out of the window as soon as he becomes a criminal. If not for CONCORD's greed and corruption someone would have been re-enslaved by now for his crimes. Same goes for heretics, what they spew or think means jack.


You misunderstand a little, Ensign Vellum.

I'm not at all addressing the validity of Sinjin Mokk's claim, or Odelya d'Hanguest's. The validity of those claims is ... kind of irrelevant to me. Why would it matter to me what the quality of their blood actually is?

What upsets me is the nature of the attacks being flung at your superior.

Silence, servant. Know your place.

It's a claim of superiority, not by ability, not by merit, but by blood. It's something that has undoubtedly been thrown in the Lieutenant's face all her life (and possibly, to a lesser degree, at yours).

It's an attempt to play on a vulnerability that your culture intentionally planted, and that Sinjin and Odelya know about because they come from that same environment. That she appears unaffected (unsurprisingly, since she undoubtedly views the source about the way you do) is irrelevant; it's an attempted low blow on a target whose vulnerability to it was programmed.

I found a lot to admire in your Empire, Ensign. ... I guess now it's clear what I couldn't bring myself to admire, or even accept: the idea that some are superior to others by right of birth alone, that it's acceptable to teach a child that she is inferior by blood.

I said my share of "milords" while visiting the Empire. They got increasingly hard to say without irony.

The fact that I could almost call Sinjin a friend probably has a part in how angry this makes me, as well. Very simply, I expected better from him.

You still don't get it, do you. One of the reasons might be that you expected better from a cartel and "almost" call him a friend.

And lieutenant is right, so I'm out.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#86 - 2015-07-19 15:43:21 UTC
It seems like the SCC permits trade in a lot of odd things. Depending on how you look at it, the SCC market in slaves might be either just another broadly-illegal commodity, comparable to Standard Blue Pill on sale in Jita, or else a uniquely horrible violation of God's will, human rights, or basic human compassion.

Usually, I don't have very much to say about things like this. It's certainly true, though, that Standard Blue Pill isn't sapient and doesn't end its existence in misery if it happens to be purchased by Nauplius.

Maybe for similar reasons, I have trouble imagining myself in the position of a dose of Blue Pill.

It doesn't seem likely that trade in slaves will be disallowed soon, but....
Alizebeth Amalath
Doomheim
#87 - 2015-07-20 10:45:32 UTC
Only holders have the divine right, wisdom and disposition to own, guide, and reclaim slaves properly, with proper oversight of the Theology Council and Ministry of Internal Order. I will continue to fight against the abuse and ownership of slaves by capsuleers until it ends.
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#88 - 2015-07-20 11:35:42 UTC
Alizebeth Amalath wrote:
Only holders have the divine right, wisdom and disposition to own, guide, and reclaim slaves properly, with proper oversight of the Theology Council and Ministry of Internal Order. I will continue to fight against the abuse and ownership of slaves by capsuleers until it ends.


God in his infinite Wisdom has made slaves available on the SCC markets so that the Chosen among the Empyreans (such as myself) might glorify him in the sacrifice of those slaves. Everything has proceeded according to God's Will. Amen. Amarr Victor.
Utari Onzo
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#89 - 2015-07-20 11:41:32 UTC
Nauplius wrote:
Alizebeth Amalath wrote:
Only holders have the divine right, wisdom and disposition to own, guide, and reclaim slaves properly, with proper oversight of the Theology Council and Ministry of Internal Order. I will continue to fight against the abuse and ownership of slaves by capsuleers until it ends.


God in his infinite Wisdom has made slaves available on the SCC markets so that the Chosen among the Empyreans (such as myself) might glorify him in the sacrifice of those slaves. Everything has proceeded according to God's Will. Amen. Amarr Victor.



Not really. What is likely to amount to a terrible bureaucratic oversight that you and other filth have abused does not for God's Will make when Scripture says much otherwise, including as well to a whole lot of what tumbles out of your mouth.

"Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"

Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#90 - 2015-07-20 16:00:08 UTC
One more interesting thing about SCC is that all of the transactions not only secure, but also secret, with no chance of governmental interference. For entity that siphons tax money from all the transactions that's one smart and elaborate system with a lot of deniability if you are in shady business or if things go wrong.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#91 - 2015-07-20 22:19:49 UTC
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
One more interesting thing about SCC is that all of the transactions not only secure, but also secret, with no chance of governmental interference. For entity that siphons tax money from all the transactions that's one smart and elaborate system with a lot of deniability if you are in shady business or if things go wrong.

Yeah, another way that dealings with and among us might maybe resemble dealings with and among nation states.

It's pretty anomalous as a system for individuals, though. ... Well ... unless we count each capsuleer as a petty monarch....
Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#92 - 2015-07-20 23:49:47 UTC
Alizebeth Amalath wrote:
Only holders have the divine right, wisdom and disposition to own, guide, and reclaim slaves properly, with proper oversight of the Theology Council and Ministry of Internal Order. I will continue to fight against the abuse and ownership of slaves by capsuleers until it ends.


Speaking of the Theology Council, I had a stray memory (amazing, I know) on the subject of TCMCs.

This is what the Theology Council had to say about them.

In short, they don't care how you control your slaves, as long as you treat them well.

The real schism about TCMCs were the result of two Tash-Murkon Holders who used the issue to add fuel to their pre-existing feud. The SCOPE blew it all out of proportion and there was some other issues with Gallente using them for "party aids." The lord that didn't like TCMCs later moved to the Mandate.

This was six years or so ago and since then, the technology has only improved and the costs have gone way down. I will again, offer a test to my peers. Give it a try. They are far more cost-effective and humane.


By His Light and His Will.

"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#93 - 2015-07-20 23:54:21 UTC
TCMCs are banned across Ardishapur space for their harmful effect on the spiritual growth of slaves.

They are not humane. Whip, don't chip.
Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#94 - 2015-07-21 00:20:34 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
TCMCs are banned across Ardishapur space for their harmful effect on the spiritual growth of slaves.

They are not humane. Whip, don't chip.



They can do as they please. The understanding here, is that the Council has not banned them. Individual Holders are free to make their own decisions.

*cough*Zaragram*cough*

But when you consider the cost of Control Tools (whips, collars, cortex bombs), guards, fences, sensor equipment, food tasters, professional Drivers, Slave Hounds, etc. and the time it takes to break an individual, a simple TCMC is far more cost-effective and reports indicate production increases as much as 120%!

As for the "spiritual" aspect? What is better? A person who has their brain slightly augmented to remove undesirable traits like aggression, or a person who mouths their prayers under duress because they fear the whip or the VITOC? As the Council has said, the choice is left to the Holder. But I think a kind, progressive and responsible Holder would try to do what's best for her Controlled Personnel. The path to God is through toil, not abuse.

"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#95 - 2015-07-21 01:48:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Sinjin Mokk wrote:
But when you consider the cost of Control Tools (whips, collars, cortex bombs), guards, fences, sensor equipment, food tasters, professional Drivers, Slave Hounds, etc. and the time it takes to break an individual, a simple TCMC is far more cost-effective and reports indicate production increases as much as 120%!


It is more cost effective in the short term. But over the long term it creates a person far less capable of creating and teaching future generations. TCMCs are at their most useful on first generation slaves and other stubborn and resistant troublemakers who require harsher and more expensive education techniques. But after several generations of service you should be relying on the family structure to rear up faithful and dutiful children, as that is cheaper, more effective, and continuous.

A Holder looking at the long term profitability of their slave stock understands that the effort and cost spent to break early generation and rebellious slaves will be made back after a few generations. Late generation slaves produced from properly-taught lineages need few if any whips, collars, guards, fences, sensor equipment, slaver hounds, overseers, or vitoxin, because the family will take care of the teaching for you. That is the ultimate goal of slavery, a lineage that can be trusted to raise its children properly without any need for strict oversight.

Quote:
As for the "spiritual" aspect? What is better? A person who has their brain slightly augmented to remove undesirable traits like aggression, or a person who mouths their prayers under duress because they fear the whip or the VITOC? As the Council has said, the choice is left to the Holder. But I think a kind, progressive and responsible Holder would try to do what's best for her Controlled Personnel. The path to God is through toil, not abuse.


Pain is how God intended for us to be taught. It is the natural response to a dangerous, unwise, or self-destructive activity, and serves to teach the body to avoid that activity. Pain is a necessary part of toil! Poor behavior should be associated with pain because that eaches a person to avoid that behavior. It is the most natural and God-given means there is to teach right from wrong.

Even if you use a TCMC that only makes slight changes, rather than the full personality and memory remaps that have been reported in use in the Kingdom, it still takes away from the learning experience. If God didn't want us to feel aggression or other negative impulses, he would not allow us to feel them. But we can feel them, we do feel them. He did not create a universe of only good, he created one where there is both good and evil. It is the duty of God's Chosen to cultivate the spirit of man. We must be taught to choose good over evil, by our own free will. Only by learning how to choose it out of our own free will do we grow into righteous adults. If you simply prevent a person from ever even experiencing temptation, they will never learn how to overcome it on their own. They will be forever children.

Any Holder that uses TCMCs has demonstrated only their poor ability at teaching properly. It is the easy path. It is, itself, a temptation that you are falling to! It is the sin of sloth.

Whip, don't chip.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#96 - 2015-07-21 08:03:52 UTC
Hardship does not necessarily equates to pain...

Also, uh... I think TCMCs certainly do not remove indesirable traits... They merely try to prevent the individual to resort to those traits.

If you want a trait removed, you will have to dwelve into True Sansha chips, or other more advanced methods...
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#97 - 2015-07-21 11:26:06 UTC
I whip...AND I chip.

I whip because God is glorified in the destruction of Minmatar.

I chip because God commands obedience and cares not whether that obedience be freely given.

Whip AND chip. Thus saith Nauplius, Prophet of God. Amen. Amarr Victor.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#98 - 2015-07-21 13:23:14 UTC
Nauplius wrote:
I whip...AND I chip.

I whip because God is glorified in the destruction of Minmatar.

I chip because God commands obedience and cares not whether that obedience be freely given.

Whip AND chip. Thus saith Nauplius, Prophet of God. Amen. Amarr Victor.

"P.S.: Bwahahaha!"



Well, I'm learning a lot this week. It's a fascinating discussion, even if ... yeah.

That slogan doesn't get less chilling by repeating it, Lt. Kernher.