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The Power of EvE weaponry.

Author
Vikarion
Doomheim
#1 - 2015-05-06 21:39:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Vikarion
So, recently I made an attempt to determine the power of EvE weaponry via an analysis of railgun rounds. Unfortunately, as one person noted, we don't actually know the velocity of EvE railgun rounds. So much for that, then.

Well, I figured, perhaps there is something that can be quantified. And, since I'm home from work with food poisoning today, I had time to go browse the EvE Fiction forum, where someone had posted about these two articles (in the Lapetan Titans thread). This thread references the titans we use, by the way, not the Lapetans. Anyway, here are the two articles:

Reschard 1
Reschard 2

So, Reschard V was destroyed by the old Avatar doomsday weapon. Which is great - I mean, not great for Reschard V - but great because we can know the average damage of an Avatar's Judgment doomsday - and when I speak of the Avatar's Judgment doomsday in this post, I am exclusively referring to the old one. We also have a fairly good idea of how much energy it takes to inflict that level of damage to a planet. Specifically, we can correlate it to the energy released in an asteroid strike.

Incidentally, because Titan doomsdays do the same amount of damage, we can also dispense with any worries about overestimating the potential damage of an EvE weapon. EM would do less damage to a planet than Kinetic, perhaps, but certainly not more.

Now, we know how much base damage an Avatar does with the old Judgment doomsday: 46,875. For ease of calculation, and also as a hedge against overestimation, I'll round this to 50,000. Increased skills on the part of the pilot can raise this a bit, but it's a good base number.

How much damage did Reschard V take? Well, it appears to have taken damage somewhere in the range of a large asteroid strike. Preliminary estimates in the news theorized that around 87% of all life on the surface was instantly killed. Later examination in the second article stated that the entire surface of the planet was incapable of supporting life, although a few survivors (percentage-wise) were recovered from caves and ruins. So we can conclude that the strike on Reschard V was, in terms of damage to the planet, nearly a total extinction event.

In comparison, the roughly 10 km-wide asteroid that caused the Cretaceous Extinction killed about 75% of all species on earth, according to present knowledge, and did so over a period of time, as much of the dying was caused by secondary environmental effects. Thus, we can conclude that Avatar's Judgment weapon possessed much more destructive power than the Chicxulub impactor. This is especially true when you realize that the spherical nature of the Judgment doomsday would have only partially impacted the planet, as the Avatar was in low orbit, whereas the entire power of the Chicxulub impactor was expressed. On the other hand, since the damage Judgment inflicts does not vary by size (a Dread takes the same amount as a frigate) it seems that damage done is a flat amount per entity. This is just a point of interest, then.

I then did some digging to see what kind of impact could express the necessary energy for the destruction of Reschard V. It turns out that you would probably need an asteroid of a size of 16 km or more. Since I'm trying to be as conservative as possible, I will use the 16 km size, although I could justifiably argue for larger.

A 16 km asteroid striking a planet would possess a destructive yield of 200 million megatons, or 200,000,000,000,000 tons of TNT. That's - if I got the math right - 200 trillion tons of TNT. We can safely say that an Avatar's Judgment doomsday weapon (the old one, still) possesses at least that much power.

Now we can simply divide the power of the weapon in real terms by EvE damage units. That is to say, an Avatar's weapon does roughly 50,000 damage in game, so we divide 200 million megatons by 50,000. That comes to 4,000 - again, if I'm doing the math right. Which means that every point of EvE damage works out to at least 4,000 megatons.

Even if you think that my estimates, which are hopefully based on the reasonably well-grounded science of asteroid impact, are far too high, even if you think that my estimates should be reduced by 75% (In which case Reschard V should have merely had a bad day), that still works out to each point of Eve damage expressing 1,000 megatons of energy.

And someone had the bright idea to give capsuleers these toys.
Enya Sparhawk
Black Tea and Talons
#2 - 2015-05-07 21:57:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Enya Sparhawk
Vikarion wrote:
Specifically, we can correlate it to the energy released in an asteroid strike.
Not necessarily true (you're giving too much 'substance' to your argument, quite literally)

All planets are not the same size, mass, density or are composed of the same materials (from a fiction standing). Each of the forms of doomsdays accomplish their damage from different forms of energy not really by the acceleration of any physical object and then release (remember the ship isn't shooting 'rounds' in every direction, I'm basing this off of a pre-dominion doomsday). A plasma charge may burn everything from the surface of the planet, perhaps even igniting the atmosphere in the process leaving it void of not only life but the means to sustain it. Even an EMP charge could do the same but it too would ultimately leave the area in a technological blackhole.

A kinetic charge could conceivably affect the orbit of the planet since its effects wouldn't be confined to a single point as an asteroid would. It might even shatter a planet (creating asteroids of its own)

To try and make it fit into a real world type scenario, you couldn't really use the weapons damage output as specs... ie. all forms have the same damage output.

I hope you figure this out. It would also be interesting to use for a story.

(I'd even add wormhole and environmental effects to the mix as well)

Here's a link or two:
Chelyabinsk meteor
Tunguska event

I'd equate it to the Sun blasting the Earth... I'm sure we could find data somewhere for that...

Fíorghrá: Grá na fírinne

Maireann croí éadrom i bhfad.

Bíonn súil le muir ach ní bhíonn súil le tír.

Is maith an scéalaí an aimsir.

When the lost ships of Greece finally return home...

Vikarion
Doomheim
#3 - 2015-05-07 23:55:08 UTC
Enya Sparhawk wrote:
Vikarion wrote:
Specifically, we can correlate it to the energy released in an asteroid strike.
Not necessarily true (you're giving too much 'substance' to your argument, quite literally)


Hmm, I think that you are perhaps thinking that I'm being more specific than I am. I don't need to worry about the "form" of energy, for two reasons.

One, because the damage an old Avatar's doomsday weapon did was exactly the same as the old Leviathan or Erebus doomsday. So, in EvE, the damage potential is precisely the same.

Two, because I'm not using the asteroid impact to establish an upper bound to the damage EvE weapons do. I'm using it to establish a lower bound, that is to say, the energy release cannot be less than this.

For example, the Chicxulub impactor, which killed, over time, 75% of life on Earth (Reschard V is apparently an Earth-like planet) did not boil the oceans and melt polar caps. On Reschard V, 88.7% of life-forms were immediately rendered extinct, and the polar caps were immediately melted.

Given laws such as the Conservation of Energy, we can therefore say that whatever hit Reschard V had to have more energy than a large meteorite impact, whatever its form. Since we can know how much energy an impactor must produce to create a similar effect, and since the same amount of energy must be delivered either way, we can calculate how much energy a doomsday must have released to accomplish the same thing.

Incidentally, as I noted, an asteroid strike is a very efficient means of destroying a planet, generally much more so than electromagnetic radiation, which is the damage type of the old Avatar doomsday weapon. So much so that the pilot of said Avatar might have been better off dragging an asteroid into the planet. As well, I used a 16 km impactor as my comparison, when, in reality, it would probably take a 20 km one to deliver the destruction described in the articles. In all likelihood, therefore, my estimates are way, way low.
solrac lara
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2015-05-09 12:08:15 UTC
I dont see my catalyst blowing up islands so its doubtful lol. Abaut the mass of the planet the planet was 5 times bigger than earth if im not mistaken, also you cant use a game mechanic to meassure some fluff related stuff i think doesnt make sense.
you could messaure eve firepower based on this maybe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEqlrWChlS4
see thats a 280mm artillery gun firing nuclear ammo the explosion have a yield of 16 kilotons i think.
there are 280mm guns on eve online and there is nuclear ammo too (actually is one of the weakest type of ammo as far as i know) so it could be possible to make a messaurement bassed on that, or in the explosion radius of missiles and torpedoes maybe capital missiles have a explosion radius of 3km similar to a 9 megaton blast i think, but dont take me serius nukes work different on space and eve citadel torpedoes arent nukes except the emp based one which is a nuclear "baby warhead".
Enya Sparhawk
Black Tea and Talons
#5 - 2015-05-11 20:03:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Enya Sparhawk
Vikarion wrote:

Two, because I'm not using the asteroid impact to establish an upper bound to the damage EvE weapons do. I'm using it to establish a lower bound, that is to say, the energy release cannot be less than this.
No I understood you. Everything actually.

We're talking area; your lower bound is energy confined to a single point. (It would be a greater scale of devastation since an area is really a collection of single points compounded by the conservation of energy right? Reaction/interaction with the planet being the catalytic factor for the energy transmutation defined by the type of energy released.)

Remember, most of these planets were terraformed originally with asteroid strikes (I believe mostly comets for the water content), various masses come into play for a lower bound.

I digress, I 'thought' you were being specific, because you were using real life data to explain something,
Vikarion wrote:
In comparison, the roughly 10 km-wide asteroid that caused the Cretaceous Extinction killed about 75% of all species on earth, according to present knowledge, and did so over a period of time, as much of the dying was caused by secondary environmental effects.

Even if you think that my estimates, which are hopefully based on the reasonably well-grounded science of asteroid impact
but you were only quantifying it within the game mechanics. (In which case you could probably just pull any large number you want; as long as it sounds good, it's fictional right?)

Still, it would have been pretty neat to work out...

Vikarion wrote:
Incidentally, as I noted, an asteroid strike is a very efficient means of destroying a planet, generally much more so than electromagnetic radiation
LOL. Yeah its a pretty efficient, but electromagnetic radiation if released properly (given the proper conditions) can effectively knock your poles out and send your planet spinning either into your Sun or even away from it (with very little loss of energy to the initial charge; now that's efficiency).

Fíorghrá: Grá na fírinne

Maireann croí éadrom i bhfad.

Bíonn súil le muir ach ní bhíonn súil le tír.

Is maith an scéalaí an aimsir.

When the lost ships of Greece finally return home...

Cymorn
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#6 - 2015-05-14 02:43:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Cymorn
There's an inherent flaw in relating EVE weaponry and damage units to real life. Let's take some 1400mm rounds as an example. These things are supposedly 1.4 meters in diameter, but only have a mass of 1kg and a volume of 0.025m^3? Well, if we approximate the round as a cylinder, we know it's radius (0.7m) and the volume of a cylinder is A*h.

With V = 0.025m^3 = pi*(0.7)^2 * h

solving for h = 0.025/(pi(0.7)^2) = h = 0.016m.

Essentially, these 1400mm rounds are pie plates and not what one would typically associate with a chemical propelled slug.
solrac lara
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2015-07-18 18:29:15 UTC  |  Edited by: solrac lara
Enya Sparhawk wrote:
Vikarion wrote:
Specifically, we can correlate it to the energy released in an asteroid strike.
Not necessarily true (you're giving too much 'substance' to your argument, quite literally)

All planets are not the same size, mass, density or are composed of the same materials (from a fiction standing). Each of the forms of doomsdays accomplish their damage from different forms of energy not really by the acceleration of any physical object and then release (remember the ship isn't shooting 'rounds' in every direction, I'm basing this off of a pre-dominion doomsday). A plasma charge may burn everything from the surface of the planet, perhaps even igniting the atmosphere in the process leaving it void of not only life but the means to sustain it. Even an EMP charge could do the same but it too would ultimately leave the area in a technological blackhole.

A kinetic charge could conceivably affect the orbit of the planet since its effects wouldn't be confined to a single point as an asteroid would. It might even shatter a planet (creating asteroids of its own)

To try and make it fit into a real world type scenario, you couldn't really use the weapons damage output as specs... ie. all forms have the same damage output.

I hope you figure this out. It would also be interesting to use for a story.

(I'd even add wormhole and environmental effects to the mix as well)

Here's a link or two:
Chelyabinsk meteor
Tunguska event

I'd equate it to the Sun blasting the Earth... I'm sure we could find data somewhere for that...


Well in the text of the reschard V incident there is a mention of a full polar meltdown and assuming that the polar icecap of reschard V had a similar volume of wáter to earth icecap we could use that to make a calc but the number would be unreal something like 2 petatons and a 2 petaton blast would ve killed all life on reschard V not just a mere 90% it would ve been a full sterilization event no short term survivors So i guess that the amarr DD use some sort of technobladde thingy and that would make it hard to quantify but there is something we can use to quantify said event and is this picture http://www.placidreborn.net/images/ReschauldV-A.png
Now in the text its mentioned that the part of the land Surface of reschard V that didint get flodded by the polar meltdown got scorched by the reléase of energy with that and the picture above we can make a calc using square inverse law.

Reschard V radius = 37000 KM

Reschard V circunference = 2PI x R

Reschard V circunference = 232477. 8 KM or 232477856 meters

Now we can see a massive firestorm on the planet and alot of smaller ones and there is one almost at the south pole of the planet so it could be say that at least that half of the Surface recived enough energy to cause fires. Now i dont know how much energy is required to cause a fire so im going to use the affirmation of nukemap where is mentioned that 35 calories / cm2 are enough to set dry Wood on fire, So we have the following. Energy required to set dry Wood on fire = 35 calc/ cm 2

35 calc / cm2 = 1464400 joule / m 2

R = 232477856 meters m/ 2

R = 116238928 Meters

Now if im not wrong inverse square formula would go like this

Energy/ 4PIR*2 = 1464400 joule / m2

Energy / 4PI 116238928*2 = 1464400

Energy = 16979037e17 x 1464400

Energy = 2.4864102e23J or 59.4 Teratons

Now extrapolation could be made from that the destruction of the shigeru a caldari titan is a cannon event as far as i remember and it took araund 9 minutes from concetrated fire from 25 dreads in siegue mode to down the shigeru shields from 21% to 0,assuming that the shigeru shields are good enough to tank just 1 DD then with 21% shield it should be able to tank 12.4 terarons or 22.1 gigatons per second,dividing that betwhen the ammount of dreads and the number of turrets you get 153 megatons per second for each turret with an alfa of 1.56 gigatons per turret and 9.18 gigatons assuming a RoF of one shot per 10 seconds.