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A Message Regarding "Hyperdunking"

First post First post First post
Author
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1721 - 2015-07-18 11:52:28 UTC
Maenth wrote:
Police are supposed to be a crime-prevention force and not 100% a crime-reaction force.


Wrong. Hell man, that's not even true in real life.


Quote:
kinda like how people get arrested and then put in jail for at least a little while and not just immediately released.


Capsuleers are not "people". We are just short of gods. Any analogy to real life is basically invalid from the outset merely by virtue of this fact.

Quote:

The real issue is risk vs reward. For hisec grankers the risk[cost] is very low while potential rewards are very high.


The rewards are entirely based on how stupid the haulers are being on any given day. And, like any PvP interaction, risk is determined almost entirely by how much effort is being put in by the opposition. Put in zero, and yeah, we have an easy time of it, working as intended.


Quote:

On top of that, the legal penalty or cost for a life devoted to crime within civilized society is extremely low.


New Eden is not a civilized society.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1722 - 2015-07-18 11:56:19 UTC
Maenth wrote:

I understand and actually appreciate the reality, but EVE is supposed to be all about risk/cost vs reward and criminals should have to really play that harsh game along with the haulers and wormhole corps and sov alliances.


You want the only playstyle in highsec that actually has consequences built into it to have even more stacked on top... so that you can commensurately reduce your own risk to actual zero. Roll

People like you don't get to talk about risk vs reward, you don't even know what it means.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Maenth
The Thirteen Provinces
#1723 - 2015-07-18 12:07:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Maenth
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Maenth wrote:

I understand and actually appreciate the reality, but EVE is supposed to be all about risk/cost vs reward and criminals should have to really play that harsh game along with the haulers and wormhole corps and sov alliances.


You want the only playstyle in highsec that actually has consequences built into it to have even more stacked on top... so that you can commensurately reduce your own risk to actual zero. Roll

People like you don't get to talk about risk vs reward, you don't even know what it means.


Cool but I have actually lived in nullsec and also currently live in w-space so *dismiss*


I WOULD LIKE TO THANK BLACK PEDRO FOR A THOROUGH AND WELL-SUPPORTED REBUTTAL Bear

Drones. Drones are a means to an end. An end to the ruthless Caldari 'progress' machines. An end to the barbaric 'redemption' proposed by the Amarr. What they see as chaos shall be my perfect order, merely beyond their comprehension.

Black Pedro
Mine.
#1724 - 2015-07-18 12:12:24 UTC
Kandu Harr wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:


Without ganking, there would be no risk at all left in highsec.


you should amend that statement, it is false

What risk is there left for an NPC corp member then other than a suicide gank? NPCs? Accidentally self-destructing?

At the beginning of 2015 there were three forms of non-consensual PvP in highsec: wardecs, suicide ganking, and highsec awoxing.

Now there are only two. And only one of those affects NPC corp members.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#1725 - 2015-07-18 12:14:57 UTC
Maenth wrote:
Police are supposed to be a crime-prevention force and not 100% a crime-reaction force.
Context is needed here, the only punishable crime in hisec is unsanctioned aggression, the penalty for committing that crime is enough to deter an extremely large majority of hisec players from committing it. Everything else is a misdemeanor

Quote:
On top of that, the legal penalty or cost for a life devoted to crime within civilized society is extremely low
Are you sure you meant to write that? Unless my eyes have suddenly gone squiffy and I'm misreading it, you just stated that the legal penalties for a life of crime in a civilised society are low, which is a direct contradiction of the rest of your post.

Quote:
The loss of security status is irrelevant when people can just buy those tags to repair their security status. People who want to be good with the forces of law and order have to grind missions, but serial murderers and thieves can just buy their way back in to civilized society where they'll almost certainly commit crimes again? It's just.. all wrong P
This is as true in real life as it is in Eve, if you have enough money and influence you can get away with pretty much anything.

Also Eve is a dystopia, which is the exact opposite of a civilised society.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#1726 - 2015-07-18 12:17:23 UTC
Maenth wrote:

I understand and actually appreciate the reality, but EVE is supposed to be all about risk/cost vs reward and criminals should have to really play that harsh game along with the haulers and wormhole corps and sov alliances.

The risk vs reward applies for the NPC content and not for player driven stuff. Actually in highsec it is completely backwards, if they ship billions of ISK with ships that can be killed for a few hundred millions, then something else is going on.

The people of highsec have a wrong sense of security if they undock and autopilot their whole stuff without escort. And thats exactly because ganking was nerfed into the ground and only a hand full of people do it, but find a place full of freigters with billions of loot.

By making highsec even more secure you will just make this whole thing worse. The freighters will get even more fat and the few left who can organize a gank will earn even more.

Think about it!
Omega Capsuleer
Order of Cut-Throats
#1727 - 2015-07-18 13:24:08 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:


Players are also reminded that if someone is criminally flagged, they are fair game to be attacked in self-defense. Feel free to use this to your advantage.


But what about the disadvantaged? Those without the resources (isk, SP, equipment, etc.) to seek revenge?

And it does not consider how people feel loss. A new player losing a ship he has put all his earnings into feels the loss more than a bitter vet losing hundreds of millions of isk to Concord.

Sounds like a new generation of punching bags.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1728 - 2015-07-18 13:29:16 UTC
Omega Capsuleer wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:


Players are also reminded that if someone is criminally flagged, they are fair game to be attacked in self-defense. Feel free to use this to your advantage.


But what about the disadvantaged? Those without the resources (isk, SP, equipment, etc.) to seek revenge?

And it does not consider how people feel loss. A new player losing a ship he has put all his earnings into feels the loss more than a bitter vet losing hundreds of millions of isk to Concord.

Sounds like a new generation of punching bags.


Here you are referring to people too "disadvantaged" to fit and fly eg: an arty thrasher.

Those people should still be running the tutorial missions, not flying freighters and concern-trolling.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#1729 - 2015-07-18 13:30:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Ima Wreckyou
Omega Capsuleer wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:


Players are also reminded that if someone is criminally flagged, they are fair game to be attacked in self-defense. Feel free to use this to your advantage.


But what about the disadvantaged? Those without the resources (isk, SP, equipment, etc.) to seek revenge?

And it does not consider how people feel loss. A new player losing a ship he has put all his earnings into feels the loss more than a bitter vet losing hundreds of millions of isk to Concord.

Sounds like a new generation of punching bags.

How many new players do you know who lost an Orca or a Freighter in a hyperdunk?
Anne Dieu-le-veut
Natl Assn for the Advancement of Criminal People
#1730 - 2015-07-18 15:38:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Anne Dieu-le-veut
Maenth wrote:
CONCORD should be at least forceful enough to say "You misused your ship so we're taking it from you by force, and any other ship you bring out in the next little while that might try the same criminal activity" ... kinda like how people get arrested and then put in jail for at least a little while and not just immediately released.


Umm, that's exactly what happens. Any ship they board while under GCC is destroyed, whether they take new criminal actions or not. You really should learn game mechanics better before proposing changes.

Maenth wrote:
How effective is a police force that responds to drunk driving by just taking the beer you have on you at the time, says "I've got my eye on you" and then leaves you alone until you mess up again ..?


They confiscate your ship and any other ship you board for the next 15 minutes...not exactly "taking the beer". Taking the beer would be like confiscating only their ammo, and letting them go on their merry way.

Omega Capsuleer wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:


Players are also reminded that if someone is criminally flagged, they are fair game to be attacked in self-defense. Feel free to use this to your advantage.


But what about the disadvantaged? Those without the resources (isk, SP, equipment, etc.) to seek revenge?

And it does not consider how people feel loss. A new player losing a ship he has put all his earnings into feels the loss more than a bitter vet losing hundreds of millions of isk to Concord.

Sounds like a new generation of punching bags.


Ah, yes...the "new player" flying around in freighters with 10B worth of assets. Did I not get the secret password when I created my account as a new player to get a freighter?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1731 - 2015-07-18 16:03:16 UTC
Anne Dieu-le-veut wrote:

Ah, yes...the "new player" flying around in freighters with 10B worth of assets. Did I not get the secret password when I created my account as a new player to get a freighter?



Come now, let's not pretend that isk value under a certain level brings "safety".

You'll die if people are bored enough regardless, even if it is empty.

Which is fine, but let's be clear for people trying to research: lower value = lower risk but far from none.

Don't rock about in capitals unsupported.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1732 - 2015-07-18 16:31:49 UTC
Omega Capsuleer wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:


Players are also reminded that if someone is criminally flagged, they are fair game to be attacked in self-defense. Feel free to use this to your advantage.


But what about the disadvantaged? Those without the resources (isk, SP, equipment, etc.) to seek revenge?

And it does not consider how people feel loss. A new player losing a ship he has put all his earnings into feels the loss more than a bitter vet losing hundreds of millions of isk to Concord.

Sounds like a new generation of punching bags.
There is only one thing that needs to be said to expose all of this as bullshit.
For over a decade, hundreds of thousands of people have played and joined this game.

Whatever you say is simply invalid, because it only happens in your head.


Now to the new generation. Yes, the new generation are punching bags, but that's not our fault. It's theirs. Current and next generation gamers are flat-out losers, unless they really dedicate themselves to championships and whatever. Absolutely most gamers are flat-out idiots who lack any skill whatsoever.

Hand the classic Prince of Persia to a 16 year old kid of today.
There's a 60 Minutes time limit in this game.
Watch him fail.
And fail.
And fail.
And rage.
Whine.
And then give up.


Yes, the new generation is a bunch of punching bags.
Self entitled, worthless punching bags.


But that's not OUR fault!

WE know that people aren't equal. WE know that not everyone deserves a chance. Work for it or get lost, that's how things get done. WE don't need to adapt to self entitled people who lack attention-span and concentration. If people are too dumb to play this game, then they ARE too dumb to play this game. They aren't a target audience for this game, at all, because they want things this game can not offer them.


Your pity for these people is disgusting.


bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1733 - 2015-07-18 16:49:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Black Pedro wrote:
Didn't I just link CCP's thoughts on this a page or two ago? Well here it is again:

CCP wrote:
5.2 WHO IS CONCORD AND WHAT ROLE DO THEY PERFORM?
CONCORD can be considered to be the ‘space police’ who patrol the higher security areas of New Eden. They take action against those who attack others without justification and will hunt such miscreants down and destroy them without mercy. However, their role is not to prevent an attack but to punish an aggressor. Should you find yourself under fire from another pilot, CONCORD may not arrive in time to help you, so it will be down to your skill and the strength of your ship to prevail.
Hyperdunking makes that part irrelevant.

Black Pedro wrote:
You are missing the point of the game design: gankers are the risk in risk vs. reward.
Gankng is aplaystyle in itself and should be itself balanced in risk vs reward. Claiming is is the risk and thus shouldn't itself be subject to the same rules is ludicrous. As it stands, ganking is cheap and easy and insanely rewarding. All you're doing here is crying to keep your easy income source, and it's pathetic. You're a carebear.

Black Pedro wrote:
Ganking does not put resources into the economy - it only destroys them - so it is not necessary for gankers to have any risk at all.
ROFL! Carebear confirmed. You want to get rewarded but want zero risk.

Black Pedro wrote:
Without ganking, there would be no risk at all left in highsec.
Fundamentally wrong on all levels. There's loads of risk not related to ganking. Form wardecs through duals and suspect flags through to simply losing to NPCs. That said, ganking should still exist going forwards, it should just be balanced so that the better rewards are more difficult (or at least not so predictable and simple) to obtain.


Edit: Angelica Dreamstar - Regardless of what you think of the next generation of gamers, that's CCPs market. That's who will be buying games going forward. Our generation is rapidly increasing in irrelevance. CCP won't survive as a business catering only to old gamers, that's the simple reality.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1734 - 2015-07-18 17:11:04 UTC
As usual I will ignore Lucas Kell with my shocking honesty, pointing out that he should talk to a mirror from time to time.

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1735 - 2015-07-18 17:16:45 UTC
I accept your concession of defeat.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1736 - 2015-07-18 17:26:38 UTC
So tl;dr you have no reasoning and it can be safely assumed you are a troll and your posts can be disregarded. Gotcha.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Mag's
Azn Empire
#1737 - 2015-07-18 17:27:11 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
So tl;dr you have no reasoning and it can be safely assumed you are a troll and your posts can be disregarded. Gotcha.
So you are looking in a mirror.

Win win. Big smile

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Paranoid Loyd
#1738 - 2015-07-18 17:29:16 UTC
This thread needs some comic relief, enjoy.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1739 - 2015-07-18 17:39:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Angelica Dreamstar
Lucas Kell wrote:
So tl;dr you have no reasoning and it can be safely assumed you are a troll and your posts can be disregarded. Gotcha.
You use the defense of the weak. While you see it as disregarding, actually it's nothing more but ignorance and running away.


Paranoid Loyd wrote:
This thread needs some comic relief, enjoy.

This isn't actually funny, you know? Is this the message we want to transport? We're all a bunch of idiots, constantly whining and insulting everyone? Congratulations! RollRoll

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE

Jenshae Chiroptera
#1740 - 2015-07-18 17:48:29 UTC
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
This thread needs some comic relief, enjoy.
This isn't actually funny, you know? Is this the message we want to transport? We're all a bunch of idiots, constantly whining and insulting everyone? Congratulations! RollRoll
Indeed, that video is spawned by a truly childish sense of humour.
Lucas Kell wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
CCP wrote:
5.2 WHO IS CONCORD AND WHAT ROLE DO THEY PERFORM?
... However, their role is not to prevent an attack but to punish an aggressor....
Hyperdunking makes that part irrelevant.
Lucas, how do you not feel punished by losing a cheap ship that you knew was going to be destroyed? Shocked

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.