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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Accessible Fleet Battles for Everybody

First post First post
Author
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#141 - 2015-07-16 18:32:47 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
no typical gamer is on forums, its just people who enjoy talking more then the gaming...

Prove this.



Its actually a lot of the people who might be the FCs of things like NPSI fleets (which is this system minus the double blind setup, with coms and selection of short, mid and long term goals) who are saying that this feature is so not worth the dev time to implement that it is laughable.

You have 2 or 3 people I recognize as FCs for various public communities (yes, communities and reputations, which you want to obsolete via a double blind setup where you can't see fits, skills, goals, etc) who have been willing to go through the trouble of learning to FC to a common, minimum standard for a community ( parallel to your FC points system, but not arbitrary, and subject to individual assessment) which means that rather than dismiss them as wanting to do more work than they have to (trust me, no FC wants MORE work to get to the fun) you should listen to them as they explain the reasons why it is a bad setup, gives you fleets that would be a nightmare to FC at best (no filter on the wrong fits, ship classes, etc, without it being insanely complex or driving a single cancerous uber-meta like ishtars before any of the nerfs.)

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Juan Mileghere
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#142 - 2015-07-16 18:40:02 UTC
Harry Forever wrote:
Juan Mileghere wrote:
So you're not the average kind of gamer because you're on the forums but you claim to be doing this for them...


no I'm not, I'm the 1% of gamers that come to forums to bring up ideas and fight through hordes of infidel

So what reason do you have to speak on the behalf of a group that you do not belong to?

Look, I talk to probably 10-20 people everyday in the process of corporate recruitment out of 20-40 individuals. Those who seem to fit the category you speak of most of them have no interest in big fleet fights, those whom do who wish to stay solo either do NPSI stuff with a NPSI group or do PvP with their group of friends, but I've never seen an individual who has had an interest in something similar to this.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#143 - 2015-07-16 18:47:47 UTC
Harry Forever wrote:
Jim Hazard wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:


everything a computer can do for you should not be done by humans anymore.....


So basically we should just pay an account and our chars are controlled by an AI while we just sit back and watch.

- Computer AI would be well capable of mining.
- AIs would be able to sell stuff.
- Porgrams can be written for Scam contracts and AIs could be written to fall for those scams once in a while.
- AIs would be able to fly around running missions or do any other form of ISK grinding.
........

Basically you are saying we should not make any input at all because a computerprogram could as well just handle it.

And all just because you are too lazy to do stuff yourself.

Welcome to BOT - Online! The only game in the world you do not need to play yourself.


you are basically right, i would put a system in place where you can Input what your ship should do, maybe make it possible to program your ship, this would be much more interesting to work on that vs. sitting infront of a pc and looking at a mining cycle... however some brains prefer to look at the mining cycle vs. programming a ship

you like simple repetitive tasks, cool, this game is for you



With your system can I enter "Win" as the activity? Can everyone else do the same?
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#144 - 2015-07-16 18:51:58 UTC
The most difficult thing in pvp is to know when to give up and bug out. Players hate to be 'that guy' and be the one to pull the D-ring. For the sake of all the others I shall step up and be "that guy"

Stupidity Tank is unbeatable, everyone bug out and get safe. Get to a sane thread and stay put. We'll never be able to take this guy down.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#145 - 2015-07-16 19:16:02 UTC  |  Edited by: James Baboli
Serendipity Lost wrote:
The most difficult thing in pvp is to know when to give up and bug out. Players hate to be 'that guy' and be the one to pull the D-ring. For the sake of all the others I shall step up and be "that guy"

Stupidity Tank is unbeatable, everyone bug out and get safe. Get to a sane thread and stay put. We'll never be able to take this guy down.

The bridge to one line is up, JUMP JUMP JUMP. I SAY AGAIN JUMP TO ONE LINE!

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#146 - 2015-07-16 19:17:13 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
no typical gamer is on forums, its just people who enjoy talking more then the gaming...

Prove this.



Its actually a lot of the people who might be the FCs of things like NPSI fleets (which is this system minus the double blind setup, with coms and selection of short, mid and long term goals) who are saying that this feature is so not worth the dev time to implement that it is laughable.

You have 2 or 3 people I recognize as FCs for various public communities (yes, communities and reputations, which you want to obsolete via a double blind setup where you can't see fits, skills, goals, etc) who have been willing to go through the trouble of learning to FC to a common, minimum standard for a community ( parallel to your FC points system, but not arbitrary, and subject to individual assessment) which means that rather than dismiss them as wanting to do more work than they have to (trust me, no FC wants MORE work to get to the fun) you should listen to them as they explain the reasons why it is a bad setup, gives you fleets that would be a nightmare to FC at best (no filter on the wrong fits, ship classes, etc, without it being insanely complex or driving a single cancerous uber-meta like ishtars before any of the nerfs.)


this thing can be programmed within 24 hours, you have as much knowledge of fleets as you have of programming, sorry buddy

I just hear again that you think an FC is a superhuman, he's not, the most important part is warping and telling people the primary, and yes people who are primary need to tell others that they are the target to get repaired... thats about it, you make something difficult out of something pretty easy, maybe you need to feel special and don't want others to be FC as well, sorry again, everybody can do it with some simple UI system, they even can do it better because they don't have to repeat everything 100 times cause fleetmembers see what they want them to do
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#147 - 2015-07-16 19:24:59 UTC
next you will be asking if we can make up the fleet numbers with programmed npc's Roll

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#148 - 2015-07-16 19:29:43 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
next you will be asking if we can make up the fleet numbers with programmed npc's Roll


actually thats not a bad idea, you could hire the npc with ISK, maybe 10m for one frigate 50m for a cruiser.. with this you could make it possible for solo gamers to be able to fight bigger groups however with a high risk of loosing a lot of isk... the cost needs to be thought through by the devs, but the ideas is cool
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#149 - 2015-07-16 19:37:48 UTC
relevant

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#150 - 2015-07-16 19:43:33 UTC
Harry Forever wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
no typical gamer is on forums, its just people who enjoy talking more then the gaming...

Prove this.



Its actually a lot of the people who might be the FCs of things like NPSI fleets (which is this system minus the double blind setup, with coms and selection of short, mid and long term goals) who are saying that this feature is so not worth the dev time to implement that it is laughable.

You have 2 or 3 people I recognize as FCs for various public communities (yes, communities and reputations, which you want to obsolete via a double blind setup where you can't see fits, skills, goals, etc) who have been willing to go through the trouble of learning to FC to a common, minimum standard for a community ( parallel to your FC points system, but not arbitrary, and subject to individual assessment) which means that rather than dismiss them as wanting to do more work than they have to (trust me, no FC wants MORE work to get to the fun) you should listen to them as they explain the reasons why it is a bad setup, gives you fleets that would be a nightmare to FC at best (no filter on the wrong fits, ship classes, etc, without it being insanely complex or driving a single cancerous uber-meta like ishtars before any of the nerfs.)


this thing can be programmed within 24 hours, you have as much knowledge of fleets as you have of programming, sorry buddy

I just hear again that you think an FC is a superhuman, he's not, the most important part is warping and telling people the primary, and yes people who are primary need to tell others that they are the target to get repaired... thats about it, you make something difficult out of something pretty easy, maybe you need to feel special and don't want others to be FC as well, sorry again, everybody can do it with some simple UI system, they even can do it better because they don't have to repeat everything 100 times cause fleetmembers see what they want them to do


So, who picks out where to go to find fights?
Who is supposed to know what kind of fight you are looking for?
Who picks out a doctrine to fly?
Who designs doctrines?
Who figures out the ratio of tackle to DPS to logi to EWAR?
Who picks anchors, ranges, damage types if running missiles?

The FC. It isn't superhuman, it's a fairly highly specialized skillset of medium complexity.
To do that all effectively, they need to be able to communicate as well, as quickly as possible, while also performing all the functions of a line member to avoid being headshot by being unnoticeable.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#151 - 2015-07-16 19:45:47 UTC
Harry Forever wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
next you will be asking if we can make up the fleet numbers with programmed npc's Roll


actually thats not a bad idea, you could hire the npc with ISK, maybe 10m for one frigate 50m for a cruiser.. with this you could make it possible for solo gamers to be able to fight bigger groups however with a high risk of loosing a lot of isk... the cost needs to be thought through by the devs, but the ideas is cool


So now me and all my NPCs, and all my fleet members NPCs and all the rest of the alliances NPCs all attack some corp without deeply held sov or deep pockets to hire their own NPCs. It now becomes entirely isk=win. /thread /game.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Zimmer Jones
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2015-07-16 20:20:29 UTC
hire npc's? sweet. i'd like 2 priests, a minion master, a couple of tanks and a few enchanters.
What, this isn't a guildwars/eve mashup idea? You mean i have to play with real people? What kind of mmo is this?

Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.

Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#153 - 2015-07-16 21:03:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Harry Forever
James Baboli wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
no typical gamer is on forums, its just people who enjoy talking more then the gaming...

Prove this.



Its actually a lot of the people who might be the FCs of things like NPSI fleets (which is this system minus the double blind setup, with coms and selection of short, mid and long term goals) who are saying that this feature is so not worth the dev time to implement that it is laughable.

You have 2 or 3 people I recognize as FCs for various public communities (yes, communities and reputations, which you want to obsolete via a double blind setup where you can't see fits, skills, goals, etc) who have been willing to go through the trouble of learning to FC to a common, minimum standard for a community ( parallel to your FC points system, but not arbitrary, and subject to individual assessment) which means that rather than dismiss them as wanting to do more work than they have to (trust me, no FC wants MORE work to get to the fun) you should listen to them as they explain the reasons why it is a bad setup, gives you fleets that would be a nightmare to FC at best (no filter on the wrong fits, ship classes, etc, without it being insanely complex or driving a single cancerous uber-meta like ishtars before any of the nerfs.)


this thing can be programmed within 24 hours, you have as much knowledge of fleets as you have of programming, sorry buddy

I just hear again that you think an FC is a superhuman, he's not, the most important part is warping and telling people the primary, and yes people who are primary need to tell others that they are the target to get repaired... thats about it, you make something difficult out of something pretty easy, maybe you need to feel special and don't want others to be FC as well, sorry again, everybody can do it with some simple UI system, they even can do it better because they don't have to repeat everything 100 times cause fleetmembers see what they want them to do


So, who picks out where to go to find fights?
Who is supposed to know what kind of fight you are looking for?
Who picks out a doctrine to fly?
Who designs doctrines?
Who figures out the ratio of tackle to DPS to logi to EWAR?
Who picks anchors, ranges, damage types if running missiles?

The FC. It isn't superhuman, it's a fairly highly specialized skillset of medium complexity.
To do that all effectively, they need to be able to communicate as well, as quickly as possible, while also performing all the functions of a line member to avoid being headshot by being unnoticeable.


I know people like you, you look at the details too much and there you get stuck, you are lost in the complexity and don't understand the easy way of doing things... becaue you do not understand at the end how simple this game actually is, not everybody is as lost as you are, 10 buttons is sufficient for a fleetcommander to assure the fleet can have some fun and kill stuff, we easy shoot you and your friends down because we just target and shoot wherelse you talk for 10 hours about the tactic when we land on grid

random fleets are happening now as well, they work, people know what to do when they get simple commands, no problem if they use the fit they like, people like you with your rules and regulation just make the game boring, you guys are no fun never would i fly with you, you are too complicated, I just want to fleet up with 10 people search for a easy target and shoot it down, you don't need to be einstein to do that
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#154 - 2015-07-16 21:33:09 UTC
Harry Forever wrote:


I know people like you, you look at the details too much and there you get stuck, you are lost in the complexity and don't understand the easy way of doing things... becaue you do not understand at the end how simple this game actually is, not everybody is as lost as you are

I understand the easy way. I choose not to use it.
I choose to take the hour to figure out how to win almost guaranteed. I choose to fly with good FCs and pilots over odds and sods. I choose not to go play the simple game.

Because my fun is in the complexity. I like getting every last point of DPS I can out of my ship, every EHP, every m/s. I like knowing that my fleet mates have done the same, or followed my lead on it, because then I know I will win every fight we should have taken, and that is much more satisfying than any pick up group of random fits with random pilots will ever be to me.

So, you want something to make one of the cornerstones of eve "easy", be prepared for someone like me to come along and kick your puppy, take away your cookie, and laugh at you for trying to have nice things in eve without someone like me doing what I do to make it safer to have nice things.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp

Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#155 - 2015-07-16 22:01:16 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:


I know people like you, you look at the details too much and there you get stuck, you are lost in the complexity and don't understand the easy way of doing things... becaue you do not understand at the end how simple this game actually is, not everybody is as lost as you are

I understand the easy way. I choose not to use it.
I choose to take the hour to figure out how to win almost guaranteed. I choose to fly with good FCs and pilots over odds and sods. I choose not to go play the simple game.

Because my fun is in the complexity. I like getting every last point of DPS I can out of my ship, every EHP, every m/s. I like knowing that my fleet mates have done the same, or followed my lead on it, because then I know I will win every fight we should have taken, and that is much more satisfying than any pick up group of random fits with random pilots will ever be to me.

So, you want something to make one of the cornerstones of eve "easy", be prepared for someone like me to come along and kick your puppy, take away your cookie, and laugh at you for trying to have nice things in eve without someone like me doing what I do to make it safer to have nice things.


so you take something easy and talk complicated about it to pretend you are smart

take this quote from einstein and think about it: "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#156 - 2015-07-16 22:03:57 UTC
Harry Forever wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
If they're not interested in playing with people, why are they looking for multiplayer content in a multiplayer game?


we want to play with and against people but not socially interact with you guys, go to facebook if you need that



So you don't actually want to play with other people then, right?

You DO realise that you NEED to interact with other members of your fleet in order to not die, right? I mean, if you have a 10 vs 10 fight, in identical ships, with identical skills and fits, but one group are on voicecomms, communicating with one another and generally being social creatures, while the other are refusing toi have anything to do with thier fleetmates, doing thier own thing and don't even have an FC, the gous who actually interact will win every. single. time, right?


Also, this is just instanced arena fights, which get shot down on this forum weekly. I know you're a massive troll, but come on, put some effort in?

And the rest of you, stop biting.
Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#157 - 2015-07-16 22:26:50 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
If they're not interested in playing with people, why are they looking for multiplayer content in a multiplayer game?


we want to play with and against people but not socially interact with you guys, go to facebook if you need that



So you don't actually want to play with other people then, right?

You DO realise that you NEED to interact with other members of your fleet in order to not die, right? I mean, if you have a 10 vs 10 fight, in identical ships, with identical skills and fits, but one group are on voicecomms, communicating with one another and generally being social creatures, while the other are refusing toi have anything to do with thier fleetmates, doing thier own thing and don't even have an FC, the gous who actually interact will win every. single. time, right?


Also, this is just instanced arena fights, which get shot down on this forum weekly. I know you're a massive troll, but come on, put some effort in?

And the rest of you, stop biting.


communication is done via a simple UI button system to show the people what to do, read the thread before commenting
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#158 - 2015-07-16 22:29:23 UTC
Which is not communication in the way I meant. Simple UI buttons will tell you who to shoot and who to rep, yes, but no more than that. A fleet with effective comms, an actual FC, and real interaction between it's members will smash the hell out of an identical fleet relying on broadcasts.

Use your thoughts before commenting. I know it's hard for you.
Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#159 - 2015-07-16 22:32:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Harry Forever
Danika Princip wrote:
Which is not communication in the way I meant. Simple UI buttons will tell you who to shoot and who to rep, yes, but no more than that. A fleet with effective comms, an actual FC, and real interaction between it's members will smash the hell out of an identical fleet relying on broadcasts.

Use your thoughts before commenting. I know it's hard for you.


90% of your coms is just bla and repetitive warp warp warp, primary primary primary... a button system is the way to go, you want to guide fleets like in stoneage, cool keep doing it... nobody advanced enough to use a computer would want that though

you tell your kids 10 times what to do and they still don't listen or do not hear your voice because they are joking around, I just click a button and they know what to do, you are dead before you even could say primary a second time
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#160 - 2015-07-16 22:37:17 UTC
Harry Forever wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Which is not communication in the way I meant. Simple UI buttons will tell you who to shoot and who to rep, yes, but no more than that. A fleet with effective comms, an actual FC, and real interaction between it's members will smash the hell out of an identical fleet relying on broadcasts.

Use your thoughts before commenting. I know it's hard for you.


90% of your coms is just bla and repetitive warp warp warp, primary primary primary... a button system is the way to go, you want to guide fleets like in stoneage, cool keep doing it... nobody advanced enough to use a computer would want that though

you tell your kids 10 times what to do and they still don't listen or do not hear your voice because the are joking around, I just click a button and they know what to do, you are dead before you even could say primary a second time



Except for literally everyone who doesn't think this is a single player game.

Try switching primary using nothing but broadcasts. Now change alignment multiple times, hop to perches and tactical bookmarks, work out a logi anchor and co-ordinate with scouts and probers without any form of actual communication.

If pushing buttons is better than using words, why does anyone ever use voicecomms when we already have a fleet broadcast system?