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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Petition to Caldari State leadership Form:PET01a
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Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#61 - 2015-07-16 17:40:53 UTC
Mitchell Striker wrote:

The victory is looking like what it is, a victory. We achieved our strategic objectives and won the conflict, your (former) commander in chief (now terrorist?) did not. And your State suffered large political turmoil as a direct result. The Luminaire system remains Federation sovereign space, not State.

The fact we allowed the State to claim parts of Caldari Prime only emphasizes our own reasonable nature, despite driving you out of the system we still made concessions in the interests of peace, peace we've been pursuing for many years.

The Federation has no interest in "taking the State by force", but I certainly hope our "pyrrhic" victory has demonstrated to you that when it comes to sacrificing our lives in defense of our sovereign space and security, we will do so.


The Luminaire system sovereignty was never in question - just the usurpation of our homeworld which, yes, the Federal Senate is being very reasonable over. Also, you must remember, that the war between our peoples has been categorised by Federal aggression - not peacemaking. You have a bit of a history of attacking peace summits, in fact, and for over two centuries pursued a war of aggression within State space.

But yes, your pyrrhic victory certainly demonstrated to me that you are very skilled at the sacrificing of Federal Navy crewmen. My Caracal's systems couldn't even count the number of escape pods in local space the day of Operation Highlander.

Mitchell Striker wrote:

I dare say you would find it difficult to find a nation in New Eden that hasn't had some atrocity committed under a regime at one time or another. We acknowledge this history and learn from it so that we might not repeat it in the future.
I truly hope that your words accurately describe what is currently happening. I would, personally, far prefer to see our two nations proceed as peaceful peers rather than hostile enemies.


[quote=Mitchell Striker]While we agree that a decent commander is one that is prepared to sacrifice the lives of his men to achieve his objectives, a better sort of commander is one who can devise a way to achieve them without having to do so.

You have a bit of an obsession with our history Colonel, one might think you were fond of it. As for myself, I must confess I'm more interested in the present, the regimes that govern it and the living who shape it.


If you want peace then you must be prepared for war. And if you are contemplating war then you must be prepared for casualties. I have no interest in presiding from a throne of skulls, but a certain amount of death is inherent in what capsuleers do - and we are not even engaged in total war, simply a cold war skirmish.

As for my history obsession, I am more interested in the history of my own people than yours - the two are often entwined, however. It has to be said, however, that the past is prologue. It deeply affects our future, our regimes and the living who shape them.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#62 - 2015-07-16 18:24:32 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Also, you must remember, that the war between our peoples has been categorised by Federal aggression - not peacemaking. You have a bit of a history of attacking peace summits, in fact, and for over two centuries pursued a war of aggression within State space.


Here we are, once again, trying to paint the conflict with broad strokes and color one side the absolute villain while the other the absolute victim. Doesn't this get tiresome?

I could demonstrate why this constant assertion that this conflict has been entirely one-sided (as far as who the aggressor is) is completely fallacious but I've been there and done that...honestly, until we can stop pointing fingers at each other like petulant children and crying "he started it!" we're never going to get anywhere.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#63 - 2015-07-16 19:08:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Makoto Priano
Mitchell Striker wrote:

The fact we allowed the State to claim parts of Caldari Prime only emphasizes our own reasonable nature, despite driving you out of the system we still made concessions in the interests of peace, peace we've been pursuing for many years.


To Antolliere, I'd say this: I agree wholly that admissions of fault on both sides must be made for peace to be an option in the future. It is difficult to cede ground on the debate, however, when dealing with such claims as above. We both surely know that nationalists do little but ruin any potential for the productive exchange of ideas.

To Striker, you may have missed the part where the Black Eagles fomented dissent on Caldari Prime, or where Federal marines were unable to claim the majority of Caldari Prime despite having total orbital control, and that the negotiations to establish demilitarization were in fact initiated by the Ishukone Corporation after Ishukone offered support for relief operations. While I'm sure you'd claim all virtue on the part of the Federation, the Shiigeru was in an untenable position, and that the State controls the majority despite this is rather more a testament to the Caldari soldiers on the surface than to any magnanimity on the part of the Federation.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#64 - 2015-07-16 19:15:37 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
To Antolliere, I'd say this: I agree wholly that admissions of fault on both sides must be made for peace to be an option in the future. It is difficult to cede ground on the debate, however, when dealing with such claims as above. We both surely know that nationalists do little but ruin any potential for the productive exchange of ideas.


Sadly.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#65 - 2015-07-16 19:23:55 UTC
Liam Antolliere wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Also, you must remember, that the war between our peoples has been categorised by Federal aggression - not peacemaking. You have a bit of a history of attacking peace summits, in fact, and for over two centuries pursued a war of aggression within State space.


Here we are, once again, trying to paint the conflict with broad strokes and color one side the absolute villain while the other the absolute victim. Doesn't this get tiresome?

I could demonstrate why this constant assertion that this conflict has been entirely one-sided (as far as who the aggressor is) is completely fallacious but I've been there and done that...honestly, until we can stop pointing fingers at each other like petulant children and crying "he started it!" we're never going to get anywhere.



With respect, the war began entirely in the spirit of survival and self-determination on one side, and reconquest on the other, did it not? The State has never been interested in the taking of systems from the Federation - even Heth knew that he couldn't extend his reach further than one planet in the Luminaire system.

Even in the wake of the liberation of Caldari Prime, there was no attempt to broaden the war into a general front - even where doing so would have made logistical sense and could have been justified - for example seizing the few systems between Luminaire and the State border.

I'm totally willing to accept that previous actions should not dictate our future, but ignoring them is also stupid. Yes, the Federation has changed greatly since we found it impossible to remain a member. Lessons have been learned, without a doubt, and no other race has felt the need to do what we felt we had to do - although the Intaki have flirted with the idea, and were sufficiently horrified with the Federations treatment of the Caldari that they were moved to lend us a hand when we needed one.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#66 - 2015-07-16 19:25:54 UTC
It's almost as if the word 'nationalist' is used in a negative context here.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
Alesius Lerance
Chrysos Aigis
#67 - 2015-07-16 19:26:11 UTC
Carter, though I agree with the idea of petition you forget the value the Caldari place on respect and etiquette. Openly insulting the Commander like this besmirches the entire militia by suggesting they made the wrong choice by accepting her application. I will sign your petition, in private. Please, remove this.

As for the rest of you, move your debates to more a appropriate locale.

Family, Corporation, and State, in that order. What else is there worth fighting for?
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2015-07-16 21:55:28 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
With respect, the war began entirely in the spirit of survival and self-determination on one side, and reconquest on the other, did it not? The State has never been interested in the taking of systems from the Federation - even Heth knew that he couldn't extend his reach further than one planet in the Luminaire system.

Ah yes. Perhaps the post-Elder-Fleet invasion of the Federation's northern third was all in our minds. Perhaps all the Caldari military occupations and replacement of elected governments on Intaki border worlds in Placid just the vivid imaginations of their citizens. Perhaps the famine and starvation in Verge Vendor due to the State's blockades, negligence and in at least one case outright piracy were just indulgent daydreams. Perhaps the auctioning off of our sovereign worlds - an action that, despite Heth later outright anulling it, some elements of your society still continue to insist makes those worlds lawfully Caldari territory - was an awful misunderstanding.

Or perhaps Heth is dead, disgraced and posthumously exiled from the Caldari State, and you don't have to continue to lie for him.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#69 - 2015-07-16 22:07:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
With respect, the war began entirely in the spirit of survival and self-determination on one side, and reconquest on the other, did it not? The State has never been interested in the taking of systems from the Federation - even Heth knew that he couldn't extend his reach further than one planet in the Luminaire system.

Ah yes. Perhaps the post-Elder-Fleet invasion of the Federation's northern third was all in our minds. Perhaps all the Caldari military occupations and replacement of elected governments on Intaki border worlds in Placid just the vivid imaginations of their citizens. Perhaps the famine and starvation in Verge Vendor due to the State's blockades, negligence and in at least one case outright piracy were just indulgent daydreams. Perhaps the auctioning off of our sovereign worlds - an action that, despite Heth later outright anulling it, some elements of your society still continue to insist makes those worlds lawfully Caldari territory - was an awful misunderstanding.

Or perhaps Heth is dead, disgraced and posthumously exiled from the Caldari State, and you don't have to continue to lie for him.


Are you talking about the CEWPA warzone? Because two can play at that game *hard look at Black Rise*.

And, again, I've told you that as far as I'm concerned the State should have NO role in the Intaki system that the Intaki Assembly doesn't wish it to have.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#70 - 2015-07-16 22:22:48 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Ah yes. Perhaps the post-Elder-Fleet invasion of the Federation's northern third was all in our minds.

Respectfully, didn't the Federal legislative body vote to declare war and fight elsewhere because they couldn't immediately pursue an attack on the Shiigeru? Do I remember that wrong?

Even if I do remember right, though, Pieter, I don't think we can expect the Gallente to agree that their side of the war is all about "reconquest," if only because they really don't seem to see themselves as conquerors.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2015-07-17 09:05:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Andreus Ixiris
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Respectfully, didn't the Federal legislative body vote to declare war and fight elsewhere because they couldn't immediately pursue an attack on the Shiigeru? Do I remember that wrong?

As with most things you seem to recall, yes you do.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Are you talking about the CEWPA warzone? Because two can play at that game *hard look at Black Rise*.

And, again, I've told you that as far as I'm concerned the State should have NO role in the Intaki system that the Intaki Assembly doesn't wish it to have.

You are at war with the Intaki because you are at war with the Federation. You can't seperate us, no matter how much you might like to think you can. I'm sure there are some Intaki out there who are in some abstract way happy that you don't possess the same spiteful enmity for us that you do for the Gallente, but I can't imagine those sentiments provide much solace to those in the border worlds whose families starved to death or had their rights trampled upon.

I've remarked before about how it seems that you can't even apologise to the Intaki for hurting us without deeply patronising us, and apparently you've learnt little since tha time.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#72 - 2015-07-17 13:27:13 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Respectfully, didn't the Federal legislative body vote to declare war and fight elsewhere because they couldn't immediately pursue an attack on the Shiigeru? Do I remember that wrong?

As with most things you seem to recall, yes you do.

Okay ... so how did the wider war start?

Also, I apologize if this is a strange question, but ... are you someone I knew?
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2015-07-17 13:47:33 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Okay ... so how did the wider war start?

CONCORD made a bad decision, instituted CEWPA, and here we are.

Aria Jenneth wrote:
Also, I apologize if this is a strange question, but ... are you someone I knew?

Yes. Regretably, you were also someone I knew.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#74 - 2015-07-17 14:44:27 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Okay ... so how did the wider war start?

CONCORD made a bad decision, instituted CEWPA, and here we are.

That seems too simple. Wasn't the point of CEWPA to narrow and limit wars that were going to happen anyway?

Quote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Also, I apologize if this is a strange question, but ... are you someone I knew?

Yes. Regretably, you were also someone I knew.

I see. I'm sorry.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#75 - 2015-07-17 15:03:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
I've remarked before about how it seems that you can't even apologise to the Intaki for hurting us without deeply patronising us, and apparently you've learnt little since tha time.


If saying you should be in control of your own destiny is patronising then call me Daddy.

As for the rest of it, I'll happily fight Federal Intaki, if that's how they identify themselves. I'm equally happy to drink with non-Federal Intaki - I don't feel the need to group all the Intaki people into one cluster and anyone claiming to speak for a whole race is just making themselves look foolish.

There are, I'm sure you'll agree, plenty of Intaki who are pleased not to be on my shitlist in the very non-abstract sense.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#76 - 2015-07-17 16:08:48 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
If saying you should be in control of your own destiny is patronising then call me Daddy.

Oh my gosh Pieter. You owe me a new keyboard. I really should go back to using a VR rig.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2015-07-17 16:20:45 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
...

There are, I'm sure you'll agree, plenty of Intaki who are pleased not to be on my shitlist in the very non-abstract sense.


Please add me to the "don't give a ****" list...
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#78 - 2015-07-17 16:41:15 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Okay ... so how did the wider war start?

CONCORD made a bad decision, instituted CEWPA, and here we are.


Interestingly, it's somewhat more complicated than that. For instance, "...emergency meeting with all four session members, who petitioned for this section of the charter to be ratified following the drastic events of the day," implies that all four nations were pushing for a war footing.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#79 - 2015-07-17 17:10:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Makoto Priano wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Okay ... so how did the wider war start?

CONCORD made a bad decision, instituted CEWPA, and here we are.


Interestingly, it's somewhat more complicated than that. For instance, "...emergency meeting with all four session members, who petitioned for this section of the charter to be ratified following the drastic events of the day," implies that all four nations were pushing for a war footing.

I thought there was something somewhere about the Federal legislature formally voting to go to war, but I can't find it.

It would have seemed natural to declare war: their territory been invaded, their forces humiliated, and the president forced to cede Caldari Prime to Tibus Heth.

That seems like the sort of thing people declare war over.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#80 - 2015-07-17 18:06:03 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
...

There are, I'm sure you'll agree, plenty of Intaki who are pleased not to be on my shitlist in the very non-abstract sense.


Please add me to the "don't give a ****" list...


Obligatory "Bro, do you even?".

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.