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Assault Frigates Will Blot Out the Sun...

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Umega
Solis Mensa
#121 - 2011-12-30 22:31:02 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:
m0cking bird wrote:
Didn't even waste time reading that. I can only assume he's attempting to correct his errors and come to grips with his retardation. Which is a serious mental illness... Sad when you're not able to help r3tards. Sometimes all you can do is smile and give hugs.

= ) Dane you're doing good <3. Keep on trying to play spaceships.


Really sad though = ( What a waste...


-proxyyyy


Translation:


m0cking bird wrote:

I have no logic to argue with you so I will instead insult you and pretend you said nothing in order to safe face.


Come on, I called you out twice. Man up and have a serious discussion.


Isn't really worth the time for him to bother, imo. Trying to act like a .12ish tracking on one of, if not the slowest, battle frig is an acceptable number is a bit silly. Failure to acknowledge instant ammo swap to m-faction/conf from scorch too when range and fight style demands it is also an option a pulse retri has that a rail enyo does not. The R-enyo's tracking is going to suck that much more against some targets if fights hit that angle (and some will without question), and dps/tracking not climbing enough when switched to jav ammo, compared to what a P-retri can swap into.. come on. This isn't an irrelevent point by any stretch.

Pointing out one angle is nice.. better off conveying the whole scope tho if truly want to win an arguement. There is no complete package, and there is never a gurantee to always fight how you want to fight (minus pre-crucible dram).

 Ume-Pro Studios
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#122 - 2011-12-30 23:12:01 UTC
AF boost seems a bit excessive. Either mwd boost or fitting boost, not both.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#123 - 2011-12-31 00:03:54 UTC
Umega wrote:


Isn't really worth the time for him to bother, imo. Trying to act like a .12ish tracking on one of, if not the slowest, battle frig is an acceptable number is a bit silly.



They are faster than the amarr and caldari AFs. That would make them above average.

Rail ranis is/was a popular fit, and it often operates in scram range, and had enough tracking. Range is perhaps the most important part of the tracking equation, and if a ranis could do it before the hybrid buff....ishkurs and enyos can do it now and after the AF buff. At worst, an ishkur/enyo has a midslot advantage and can fit a web for better tracking than a retribution(inside web range) if the **** hits the fan. And 5 seconds to load jav isn't an eternity.

Lasers don't track well against an ABing target that is up close and has a web. Being able to switch to multi/conflag instantly doesn't count for a whole lot when you are webbed, have no web, and have worse tracking than any other AF. At close range a retribution is worse than

If a retribution's game plan is to stay at range and apply dps, there are better AFs for the job. I have already pointed out that railguns do more damage at it's range and they can go farther with a 5 second reload.

So, if it is poor in close, and surpassed at range....where is it's sweet spot? What does it do that makes it worth flying over another AF?

Umega wrote:

Failure to acknowledge instant ammo swap to m-faction/conf from scorch too when range and fight style demands it is also an option a pulse retri has that a rail enyo does not.


A 5 second reload and a rail enyo/ishkur can fire out further. So, the rail boats can fire out further than the scorch retribution. Not going to count that?

Umega wrote:

The R-enyo's tracking is going to suck that much more against some targets if fights hit that angle (and some will without question), and dps/tracking not climbing enough when switched to jav ammo, compared to what a P-retri can swap into.. come on. This isn't an irrelevent point by any stretch.


Well, if you are going to fit a rail enyo/ishkur.....what would your third mid be? Extender and nano?

If you don't go that route, you can always use a web like many arty thrashers do. A web more than doubles your effective tracking. Then there's jav ammo, which gives you 25% more.

Multifrequency dual light pulse with 5% tracking per level = .428
jav 125mm railgun with 7.5% tracking per level = .192

Now slow your target down by 60%. That's 120% better effective tracking....

pulse = .428
rails = .4224 effective

And your drone/drones don't give a **** how close your target is.

Enyo with one damage mod and a hob = 204dps
Retribution with conflag a damage mod, and damage/rof rigs = 220dps

16 more dps with worse effective tracking and less max range....but better tracking outside 13km.

With navy multi it is 7 dps short of the enyo.


Umega wrote:

Pointing out one angle is nice.. better off conveying the whole scope tho if truly want to win an arguement. There is no complete package, and there is never a gurantee to always fight how you want to fight (minus pre-crucible dram).


I showed you the numbers. You are the third person I am challenging to show me a reason to use a retribution over another AF.

Cuko
Shadowflame Cartel
#124 - 2011-12-31 00:12:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Cuko
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
"Enyo 360dps

Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
[Empty High slot]

Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I

Damage Control II
Small Armor Repairer II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I


Hobgoblin II x1"

Looks good however i'd keep a t2 reactive or even dead space plating in hold in case you run into ships that do heavy explosive dmg, as most frigates that are commonly used do explosive dmg. On a side note, for those that do not know... Lots of low end dead space gear is dirty cheap especially at the frigate level. Fitting a couple of these mods can free up cpu or allow for significant speed advantages if a c(b)-type 1mn ab is used (can get for 4-15 mil)

I'd also suggest you drop the mwd in favor of an ab and use the extra grid to fit a small nos in your empty slot. W/o the nos you will lose the ship more often than not, look at previous posts for reasons why.



I'm a post op transsexual. Yeah I had my penis removed. So, it will be difficult for me to man up. In fact! That would defeat the purpose of removing my penis. Which was to man down. Anywho, Dane is like a circus squirrel. Trying to type on the key board for chestnuts. So cute... = )



I agree the Enyo would benefit more in frigate versus frigate engagement, with a afterburner. However, I stopped using afterburner completely (a year ago). For my purposes. Using a micro-warp drive is superior. When doing so I tend to fly set-up that do ALOT of damage and have good damage projection. Being able to be more maneuverable in warp scramble range then becomes less of an advantage. It then becomes a race in applied and damage mitigation, with the other frigate having the option to use a afterburner to leave a engagement if losing.

Also, I've found along time ago that either a single adaptive nano or energized adaptive is not enough. Minmatar ships will always be able to have a advantage in being able to apply focused damage. For example; I tend to use Em ammunition against Gallente T2 ships, because so many atempt to use modules to mitigate explosive damage (EXP & EM whole). I said things like this in threads 2 years ago...

Often, only armour plated or active damage mitigating Enyo and Ishkur set-ups have the ability to survive T1 Rifter damage. Here is a example that I did not want to link. Along with the Many active assault frigate setups that these changes would introduce. Most will be able to tank 1 - 2 assault frigate worth of damage and more with exile or blue pill.

[Ishkur mitigates 175 damage per second (230 overloaded), 2,100 m/sec, 220 damage per second.

Light Ion Blaster II, Null S
Light Ion Blaster II, Null S
Light Ion Blaster II, Null S
[Empty High slot]

Coreli C-Type 1MN MicroWarpdrive
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Warp Scrambler II

Coreli C-Type Small Armor Repairer
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Damage Control II
Coreli C-Type Small Armor Repairer

Small Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Small Anti-EM Pump I


These are what I do not want to see. @ the moment frigate engagements are fast pace and end quickly. Not with alot of these around.... I've had a Federation Navy Comet set-up that can do close to this for a long time. Not to mention 13 - 15,000 effective hit-point set-ups.


-proxyyyy
Umega
Solis Mensa
#125 - 2011-12-31 01:05:52 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:
I showed you the numbers. You are the third person I am challenging to show me a reason to use a retribution over another AF.



Do you not fit plates and/or armor rigs to your enyos? Would have to not fit such to give it average speed vs the rest of the frig world.. huh.

I think you should quit ignoring the potential and effect of being the AF with the best powergrid as well as having a rather nice resist pattern that give it one of the thickest natural base ehps.

No idea what other tweaks are going to be made, to think they toss on an additional slot without doing anything to each ones cpu/pw I find to be a bit of a stretch.. but won't blame anyone for assuming otherwise. It may very well end up that the retribution will have the easiest path to making its top tier weapon, in small m-pulse, be able to fit without as much sacrifice as others. Make it fit on the utility high without as much sacrifice as others. These are very key aspects to consider.. very important as they are the reality on what determines the full ability of a ship. Maybe what you should be doing.. is comparing small m-pulse to the 125mm rail instead of the dual.

What I see is an mwd AF with the potential to sport the best all around mix of range, dps, dmg projection, and tank while keeping its utility high in use out of all of them. Only time will tell.

Using numbers is great.. use all of them though. I'm not going to bother hashing out fits until I see final grid specs myself tho.

 Ume-Pro Studios
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#126 - 2011-12-31 01:11:25 UTC
That's the worst role bonus I've ever seen on a ship.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#127 - 2011-12-31 01:39:30 UTC
Umega wrote:

Do you not fit plates and/or armor rigs to your enyos? Would have to not fit such to give it average speed vs the rest of the frig world.. huh.


Faster than a retribution.


Umega wrote:

I think you should quit ignoring the potential and effect of being the AF with the best powergrid as well as having a rather nice resist pattern that give it one of the thickest natural base ehps.


If you are playing the "dps at range" game, ehp makes little difference. A nano slicer does it's job with minimal ehp.

DPS is more important than EHP. Would you rather have a frigate with the EHP of a titan, or one with a gatling doomsday?


Umega wrote:

No idea what other tweaks are going to be made, to think they toss on an additional slot without doing anything to each ones cpu/pw I find to be a bit of a stretch.. but won't blame anyone for assuming otherwise. It may very well end up that the retribution will have the easiest path to making its top tier weapon, in small m-pulse, be able to fit without as much sacrifice as others. Make it fit on the utility high without as much sacrifice as others. These are very key aspects to consider.. very important as they are the reality on what determines the full ability of a ship. Maybe what you should be doing.. is comparing small m-pulse to the 125mm rail instead of the dual.


A retribution with medium pulse has 25 or 26 grid left to fit everything else once it has fit the guns. If you want to fit a plate for the EHP you keep talking about, you're going to need fitting mods. Show me the mythical medium pulse retribution with the EHP advantage you are talking about.



Umega wrote:

What I see is an mwd AF with the potential to sport the best all around mix of range, dps, dmg projection, and tank while keeping its utility high in use out of all of them. Only time will tell.


Show me the fit.

Umega wrote:

Using numbers is great.. use all of them though. I'm not going to bother hashing out fits until I see final grid specs myself tho.


I very seriously doubt any of them will get more grid. If they get anything, it will be cpu.
Umega
Solis Mensa
#128 - 2011-12-31 03:24:43 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:
~Stuff~


What difference does speed make, since you want to turn this into a enyo vs retri fight for some reason instead either vs all.. when the P-retri is able to proj dps along a better arc, with better tracking, than an R-enyo? Make up your mind the relevence of things, instead of skewing, cutting out and pasting in when it fits your arguement (or inserting when it doesn't make sense to do so on your behalf).

Are you not happy with how good a vengence is? Stating how irrelevent tank is.. when it comes to a frig, I rather like a frig that has a more impressive tank for tackling duties and holding off a flight of lights.. ESPECIALLY on the slower frigs, I find tank so much more important. Would you rather your AF melt to a dessie, or atleast give one a run for its money? Obviously it depends on how much dps you get for how much ehp you lose, and vice versa.. what dps increase are you imagining that wins out over ehp?

I do not recall talking about any kind of ehp other than natural base, which gives the potential when so high to be better than others. I stated I'm not making any fits until exact new specs are released.. otherwise I am wasting my time without knowing everything possible. And so are you. I'm making the point that cpu/pw determine more than you seem to be willing to admit when comparing ships, and builds. Comparing similiar based weapon systems to one another is fine.. but isn't the whole story when you insert ship vs ship, cause ships can fit certain/better ways over counterparts.

So create whatever you want, without even knowing what exactly is going to take place. It all really is speculating. Just like I can speculate that a 5-2-5 AF with that gracious resist pattern could very well fit a small m-pulse setup with a 10k+ ehp buffer fit and have better dps projection/numbers than a wolf.

 Ume-Pro Studios
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#129 - 2011-12-31 05:21:51 UTC
Umega wrote:


What difference does speed make, since you want to turn this into a enyo vs retri fight for some reason instead either vs all.. when the P-retri is able to proj dps along a better arc, with better tracking, than an R-enyo? Make up your mind the relevence of things, instead of skewing, cutting out and pasting in when it fits your arguement (or inserting when it doesn't make sense to do so on your behalf).


You.

Moron.

I just showed you the math that PROVES a rail enyo has equivalent tracking and greater dps, plus the ability to PROJECT DPS FURTHER. It is also, you know, faster...so

it

can

stay

at

range

bettererer

I apologize if numbers confuse you, and if I bombard you with too many werds dat confuz u.

Umega wrote:

Are you not happy with how good a vengence is? Stating how irrelevent tank is.. when it comes to a frig, I rather like a frig that has a more impressive tank for tackling duties and holding off a flight of lights.. ESPECIALLY on the slower frigs, I find tank so much more important. Would you rather your AF melt to a dessie, or atleast give one a run for its money? Obviously it depends on how much dps you get for how much ehp you lose, and vice versa.. what dps increase are you imagining that wins out over ehp?


I didn't say anything about the vengeance. We were discussing how the retribution got an extra mid, taking it from the void of near-on uselessness....into still being the worst, but can actually fit a point now.


Umega wrote:

I do not recall talking about any kind of ehp other than natural base, which gives the potential when so high to be better than others. I stated I'm not making any fits until exact new specs are released.. otherwise I am wasting my time without knowing everything possible. And so are you. I'm making the point that cpu/pw determine more than you seem to be willing to admit when comparing ships, and builds. Comparing similiar based weapon systems to one another is fine.. but isn't the whole story when you insert ship vs ship, cause ships can fit certain/better ways over counterparts.


It does not matter that the retribution has extra grid to begin with, when it has the same amount of grid as another AF once you put guns on both. Unless you're going to do something silly like fit gatling pulse and a bigger plate. Lasers pay a higher price for downgrading guns than any other turret.

They may get more cpu, but I am pretty certain they will be getting little if any grid. I doubt they are going to let them all fit max tier guns and a 400mm plate/medium extender without fitting mods.

And besides, even if they DID get more grid....the retribution would still be in the same boat. The rail AF examples I gave would be able to fit 150s instead of 125s and we would still be having this discussion.

Umega wrote:

So create whatever you want, without even knowing what exactly is going to take place. It all really is speculating. Just like I can speculate that a 5-2-5 AF with that gracious resist pattern could very well fit a small m-pulse setup with a 10k+ ehp buffer fit and have better dps projection/numbers than a wolf.


This entire thread was created with the intention of informing people so they could........speculate.

There you go with the ehp/resist crap again. Amarr tech 2 resist hole is thermal.

Hybrids do thermal, projectiles do thermal, missiles do thermal, lasers do thermal, drones do thermal.

Missiles, projectiles, and drones can exploit explosive holes.

If you are looking for "resist profile", have a look at the jag.

And the wolf is not far behind in the damage projection department, actually outdamaging the retribution past 24km or so with barrage on some fits. That, while being completely superior in scram range.

Come now, show me why someone would bring a retribution to the party rather than another AF. Better tracking [except the wolf] at 24km isn't much of a niche.
Dorian Tormak
RBON United
#130 - 2011-12-31 05:48:35 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:
I just showed you the math that PROVES a rail enyo has equivalent tracking and greater dps, plus the ability to PROJECT DPS FURTHER. It is also, you know, faster...so

EFT WARRIOR

GET OUT

Holy Satanic Christ! This is a Goddamn Signature!
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#131 - 2011-12-31 08:06:08 UTC
Even with one mid: Retribution is awesome, full stop. If you don't see that then you do not know the ship. Great damage, superb range and good mobility, all essential in frigate combat .. doesn't solo well but it's racial partner has the meanest tank and is probably the finest heavy'ish tackler available in game.

The Retribution does have some crippling vulnerabilities in the restrictive damage types and the absolute dependency on cap, but I personally see that as a near perfect tradeoff for what it can do .. I would go so far as to say that the other AF's should adopt a similar "awesome .. but" paradigm as it greatly enhances fun and makes it a ship where player skill is paramount.

Question for the Enyo crowd: Rail fits will probably be prevalent due to it widening target envelope quite a lot (range = God in frig world, ref: Slicer), so would you use a TD in the 3rd mid to maximize efficiency or a web on the off-chance that you get caught?

PS: Just in case anyone was wondering, I still do not believe that it is possible to add combat related bonuses to the AFs without having to rebalance everything below them and quite a bit above = workload close to sov. revamp (slight exaggeration Smile
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#132 - 2011-12-31 08:10:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Diomidis wrote:
"Insiders" report it will be better than it is now. Will do more DPS than the Vengeance (some 25-30%) if sticking to kinetic, but the vengeance will also be a tough opponent with better dmg selection.

Think the Caldari ASs will get some CPU fitting increase, but I don't think you will be able to do dual prop, top guns (think the Hawk will be a 3-2 now, requiring guns) cap boosters etc without going the micro aux and/or PG rig way. Yet "better than current" setups with more DPS too boot and relatively straight-forward fitting with T2 modules and 1-2 meta 4s.

Remember, the Devs want to give some utility to these ships (some of the most underutilized T2 hulls - jokingly in TS convs, there was a claim that more Titans are downed than EAFs in EVE-O), not break them into the uber i-win ships.


The biggest problem IMHO with EAF's is to make them worth while you need some pretty decent SP's. In fact take the Sentinel for instance, itt's actually a very nasty EAF that is capable of soloing a lot of stuff.

The problem is it requires just about the same level of skill points to be effective as the Curse or Pilgrim. The only real difference in training needed to be effective is the Curse requires cruiser V as well as Recon V if you are smart. Meanwhile the Sentinel still requires all your drones, EW, cap, grid and fitting skills to be pretty damn good but also really requires EAF V to most effective.

The role of these ships should be a stepping stone to the Recons that pilots can use as they train toward the cruiser hull. However the amount of skill training they need to be really effective, it's typically better off for a noober to just shoot straight to the Recon even with just Recon IV.

This leaves EAF's pretty much only used in frig specific gangs or just because someone wants to fly something different.
Umega
Solis Mensa
#133 - 2011-12-31 10:52:54 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:
More braking stumping and tire spinning words


What..

Better tracking? Oh you mean with web...when you're in conf/multi range and thus, eating more dps than dishing out. Make up your mind, you're confusing yourself me thinks. do you think it really can stay at range better? Idk, we'll jus' have to see what ppl do with mwd fit retribs n five lows, depending on cpu increase (or not) ODs are going to be quite likely. Going to OD your 4 low enyo? I wouldn't personally. Time will tell with these two.. they both need more wide spread action.

It matters a whole lot that the retrib has more grid. More grid means more options. It means you might not have to sacrifice a slot for more grid to fit more, or barely fit all you want when on other ships, the same isn't possible. This so holds true with every damn ship n fit. Quit being an idiot and dismissing such a thing. I think you know this bruises your arguement. Do something constructive and ***** fit on here for the retrib to push this even further when final tweaks are done.

And do show this 150mm rail mwd enyo, purty pwease. Curious how you pulled off, since you jus' stated you could.

35% base.. hole. that's so sad.. I.. feel so sorry for you. 227.5 natural base total in armor for retri, 225 for shield for jag (sure, ignore the armor tanking wolves hole, HA! good try) better is still better even if slighty better. Do ignore jag's hole is where caldari's are happy with their kin bonus, and hybrids.. like say, idk.. an enyo.. do dmg. Enyo with its fat ass explosive hole.. caldari with their em holes. You're really going to try and argue retrib's resist pattern isn;'t good enough? Stop talking.

What was that wolf and 24km crap? No.. I got it. But do you grasp how falloff takes a dump on dps the further n further you get into it? Try that on one of the idiots that don't know how it works and will believe when someone says 'my wolf does 170ish barrage dps all the way to 19km herpderpherp'.

It's rather obvious now that you are trying to push this thing will beyond the abilities of the other AFs. So keep on spitting out crap on here, spin your tires when you get called out, n keep on bitchin. Do what you do best I guess.

 Ume-Pro Studios
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#134 - 2011-12-31 16:11:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarnak Wulf
When I fit my Wolf I traditionally prefer a high DPS setup over a tank. I feel very comfortable about it's chances against other small craft. I also realize, though, that my setup gets curb stomped by larger ships. I need a completely different fit in that arena. Nod instead of nuet. 150s instead of 200s. More armor instead of gyros and TE. This fit makes me more survivable in scramble range, but against small ships it is now issue in doubt.

I have similarly theory crafted fits for the Enyo. I look forward to trying them out.

I would say that an AF fit is going to vary according to your specific goal with it. There is no magic one size fits all fit. Can it be fitted against other frigates? Can it be fitted against larger ships? Sometimes the answer is more affirmative in one area then another. Vengeance anyone? 140ish DPS does not excite me for frigate combat. It's a great heavy tackler though.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#135 - 2011-12-31 17:02:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Templar Dane
Dorian Tormak wrote:

EFT WARRIOR

GET OUT


I'll bet I have more experience with the ship than anyone here. I know what it can do, and what it can't do.

I also know its not worth flying over another AF in 99% of situations.



Hirana Yoshida wrote:
Even with one mid: Retribution is awesome, full stop. If you don't see that then you do not know the ship. Great damage, superb range and good mobility, all essential in frigate combat .. doesn't solo well but it's racial partner has the meanest tank and is probably the finest heavy'ish tackler available in game.

Smile


If it is so awesome, why does nobody fly them?

Good mobility? I think you're confusing it with a slicer.

Just because the vengeance is a fine ship, does not mean the retribution should be a sub-par ship at everything.

Umega wrote:


stuff





WTS reading comprehension. Get someone to read my replies and translate into moronish for you.

If you're going to nano up a retribution, why not just take a slicer instead?

Oh yeah, the enyo is one lowslot short, that is a HUGE difference.....

Fit the ******* ships with guns. Look at how much grid is left over. DLP take one less grid to fit than a 125mm railgun. Medium pulse use 2 more grid than 150mm railguns.


Umega wrote:

And do show this 150mm rail mwd enyo, purty pwease. Curious how you pulled off, since you jus' stated you could.


35% base.. hole. that's so sad.. I.. feel so sorry for you. 227.5 natural base total in armor for retri, 225 for shield for jag (sure, ignore the armor tanking wolves hole, HA! good try) better is still better even if slighty better. Do ignore jag's hole is where caldari's are happy with their kin bonus, and hybrids.. like say, idk.. an enyo.. do dmg. Enyo with its fat ass explosive hole.. caldari with their em holes. You're really going to try and argue retrib's resist pattern isn;'t good enough? Stop talking.

What was that wolf and 24km crap? No.. I got it. But do you grasp how falloff takes a dump on dps the further n further you get into it? Try that on one of the idiots that don't know how it works and will believe when someone says 'my wolf does 170ish barrage dps all the way to 19km herpderpherp'.




And again, you are ignoring what I have said and only nitpicking.

I said its unlikely that any of the AFs will get grid. They will most likely all get cpu, but I highly doubt they will give them any grid.

So, retributions will still have to fit DLP and rail enyos will likely fit 125s. What I said is that IF IF IF they all got grid, like you think they will, they will still be even on leftover fitting.

You are the one saying they're going to get grid increases and implied that the retribution will get the fitting for a full rack of medium pulse.

If it weren't for the slicer, medium pulse would be a mythological weapon.

You are the one bringing up tech 2 amarr armor resists. I said nothing about it until you claimed that it is the redeeming value of the retribution.

I pointed out that it isn't all it's cracked up to be. I'd take a jag's shield resists on everything, any day of the week.

40% base.. hole. that's so sad.. I.. feel so sorry for you

19km falloff isn't all that bad. That reaches all the way out to about 40km. Oh sure, it may only tickle at 30km.....but how much damage are pulse going to do at that range?

Umega wrote:

It's rather obvious now that you are trying to push this thing will beyond the abilities of the other AFs. So keep on spitting out crap on here, spin your tires when you get called out, n keep on bitchin. Do what you do best I guess.

[/quote]

Imagine how excited I was, the most beautiful ship in the game [IMO] getting to fit a point!

Lets see what it can do.....oh wait, it's outclassed in it's niche by railguns.

You can't just say 157 dps at 14-22km is good until you look at the competition. 5 hobgoblins will do 99 dps all the way to drone control range, don't care about ewar and don't need much help from guns to surpass a retribution.

So, if the railboats aren't overpowered[they aren't]......and the retribution can't compete with them at it's optimal, it needs further tweaking.

A 5th turret and only enough extra grid to fit that turret would put it in line. That would be 39 more dps with scorch loaded.

It would be 195 dps with scorch, with the aforementioned fit. 245 dps with multi
Umega
Solis Mensa
#136 - 2011-12-31 19:44:08 UTC
All with one dmg mod and one TE to be fair.. altho I disagree with this approach as ships fit differently..

200mm Wolf - 1.7km opt + 17.5km falloff. 171 dps.. 110ish dps at 14km range outside of conventional web range. Barrage ammo. .32 tracking

125mm Enyo - 17.5km opt. + 8.2km falloff. 126 dps.. same outside web/scram range. Using the faction uranium you mentioned earlier. .17 tracking

Dual-P Retri - 17.5km opt + 2.5km falloff. 132 dps.. same outside web/scram range. Scorch. .28 tracking

What exactly are you expecting out of this ship? It lacks point.. that IS and always has been the problem of it. If you want it to act like something else.. heres a lil hint.. fly something else! There are plenty of options. It is a decent lil ship, Vengence is better and that won't change. Oh well.. it already is a lil brawler that'll have a point, hefty tank, and plenty of dps. It has a fine mixture of tank, dps, and range/dmg projection imo. Sorry it won't have everything.. no ship does. The best AF may just be the vengence.. and I think you know this. You poor, poor soul you. You're rage is so hilarious though.. please do hurl some more derogatory insults my way, as if that is going to help devs listen to your side of the arguement. Bravo.

 Ume-Pro Studios
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#137 - 2011-12-31 21:41:33 UTC
This thread is full of people who have no idea what they're talking about Roll

Including this guy:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
That's the worst role bonus I've ever seen on a ship.

I hear Interceptors are pretty useless Straight

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
Dorian Tormak
RBON United
#138 - 2012-01-01 00:55:33 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
This thread is full of people who have no idea what they're talking about Roll

Including this guy:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
That's the worst role bonus I've ever seen on a ship.

I hear Interceptors are pretty useless Straight

Well we can't all know what we're talking about you jerk. That would take the fun out of EVERYTHING. Big smile

Mr. Dane, I pretty much agree with a lot of things you have said in this thread - and the "eft warrior" thing was a joke :(

Nevertheless, I shall attempt your challenge.


[Retribution, PULSE]
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Tracking Enhancer II
Co-Processor II

Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters

Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
[empty high slot]

Small Energy Locus Coordinator I
Small Energy Locus Coordinator I

This maintains 7,000 EHP and distributes 210 over-loaded DPS at 24km, while the best Ishkur setup I could come up with has less EHP and only distributes 200 over-loaded DPS at 24km. Remember the Ishkur is A) faster and B) has the ability of Warp disruption as well as Cap Injection. I also compared it to some Enyo setups but the Retri won every time laughably in DPS/Tracking/Range statistics while maintaining about the same EHP (my Enyos could only get about 160/170 DPS at 24km without forgoing a tank/point). Feel free to post your own setups so we can all compare them.

Here is the Ishkur setup I used (if you think you can make a better one, be my guest):

[Ishkur, New Setup 2]
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Catalyzed Cold-Gas I Arcjet Thrusters
Warp Disruptor II
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 150

150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
[empty high slot]

Small Hybrid Locus Coordinator I
Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I


Hobgoblin II x5

Also a Harpy setup I made distributes 200 over-loaded DPS at 24km precisely, though I was not able to fit a tank to it Lol

Now it seems to me, thus far the Retribution is relatively useless with the Ishkur around. I did not even bother comparing Minmatar AS setups with it; mainly because I'm lazy but also because I am kind of assuming they wouldn't be very good at it anyway Lol . So it seems I have failed your test. Darn.

But what about after the buff? It is currently cap stable with just an MWD on, but once able to fit a Warp Disruptor you will most likely need some kind of capacitor module for it to work properly, so is that extra low-slot and tracking bonus going to get it past the odds, or will it be crippled by the cap-reliance of lasers (or some other factor)? The Retribution currently out-DPSes an Ishkur at 24km and has more tank while being cap stable....

Thoughts? I'm really too stupid/lazy to figure everything out but I feel like after this 'boost' comes out (if it were to come out, that is) the Retribution may have a valid long range DPS role.

Am I doing it wrong by simply employing DC/Hero-tanks? Are plates/resists expected properties of a fleet DPS frigate? Well, it just so happens both my Retri and Ishkur fit can be altered to fit 200mm plates (the Retri is also birthed with the ability to fit an armor reinforcer/resist thing). After those changes, the Ishkur does 196 over-loaded DPS at 22km with 8,200 EHP, and the Retribution does 177 over-loaded DPS at 22km with 10,497 EHP.

This is the best I could do, anyway, spit in my eyes now if you want, also tell me if I'm stupid or forgot something or left out something...

Also Happy New Year

Holy Satanic Christ! This is a Goddamn Signature!
To mare
Advanced Technology
#139 - 2012-01-01 03:27:01 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Please deposit all Dramiels and Daredevils into the trash receptacle upon exiting the vehicle..... Twisted


actually this does little to nothing to dramiel indeed the ship itself is already pretty bad to engage assault frig right now it have the advantage to gtfo at will if things goes bad and it will still have that advantage.
otoh the daredevil will definitely get buttraped by those new AFs
Salvia Olima
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2012-01-02 13:04:13 UTC
Okay. But when I see these little (rebuffed) boats approaching towards my Tornado, I will just swicth the scripts and alpha them, one-by-one, while happily mwd-ing away. 50% bonus to sig while mwd-ing is next to nothing, even if I take to account that not ALL AF-pilots are helpless noobs to approach directly.

So, my recommendation will be to give an AB speed-bonus instead of any MWD-bonus, so much that the slowest AF's speed should be in-par with an overheated mwd-speed of the tier3 BCs. This way AF-s can still have some cap when they reach target, and most of them needs some spare cap to fight.